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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19475846/Court limits use of race in school admissions WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court on Thursday rejected public school assignment plans that take account of students’ race. The decision in cases affecting schools in Louisville, Ky., and Seattle could imperil similar plans in hundreds of districts nationwide, and it leaves public school systems with a limited arsenal to maintain racial diversity. The court split, 5-4, with Chief Justice John Roberts announcing the court’s judgment. Justice Stephen Breyer wrote a dissent that was joined by the court’s other three liberals. ------------------- We're getting there. We need to ELIMINATE the use of race in ANY decision made in this country. Using race to make any kind of decision is racism.
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Trying to get back to the good ole days of 'Separate but Equal'?
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Legend
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The key is to give every kid the same opportunity to succeed by attacking the systemic problems (poverty, jobs, etc.). Then, race won't be a factor.
But, hey, IMO, I see no problem with some "forced" diversity. I went to a high school that had very few African-Americans, and I know that I really enjoyed when I went to Kent and was exposed to the diversity that was there. I feel like I missed out on something when I was in HS by being surrounded only by people who were "like me."
But, that's JMHO.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Trying to get back to the good ole days of 'Separate but Equal'?
Uh.............no.
Please tell me where I said that.
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Legend
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I've always had an issue with the minority quotas in school here in Florida.
It created huge busing issues, busing kids all over the county (yes schools down here are county not city) So imagine your kid being bused from Westlake to Parma everyday.
It's ridiculous, and caused more issues than it solved. No more school spirit, since most kids couldn't stay for after school activities. So they eventually added busing for those kids, so now you have additional bus routes late in the evening carrying the athletes home, it wasn't uncommon for me to see school buses at 8-9pm.
A few years ago, they finally, cut it to a school choice, and limited to 3 schools nearest your home. As expected, most peoples first choice was the school down the street, a few chose others for various reasons(closer to work, closer to another relative, provided a course or program others didn't)
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Dawg Talker
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It created huge busing issues, busing kids all over the county (yes schools down here are county not city) So imagine your kid being bused from Westlake to Parma everyday.
If they got a good education, and got to experience other communities and people...I'm all for it, if they have to ride a little longer to get to school, so be it.
But that's just me
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Legend
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It should be focused not on whether a student is black, but whether they are poor. Generally, if they are poor, statistically they're probably black, but the point should be to to provide equal education opportunities. And, given, the people you're mostly going to see lacking those equal opportunities are black.
And this forced racial diversity thing is so B.S. to me. I'm sorry, but this should happen naturally.
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Quote:
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Trying to get back to the good ole days of 'Separate but Equal'?
Uh.............no.
Please tell me where I said that.
The comment wasn't necessarily aimed directly at you but more towards this:
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The decision in cases affecting schools in Louisville, Ky., and Seattle could imperil similar plans in hundreds of districts nationwide, and it leaves public school systems with a limited arsenal to maintain racial diversity.
We live in a diverse world, and it would be to our children's benefits to learn something about the people they will eventually sit next to on the train, or work with, or order their big mac from.
I don't think you will ever fully eliminate racism, but I applaud your sentiment
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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It the same school district, the education criteria are identical, and very little changed, the school district still has like a 30% drop out rate.
What actually happened, was everyone wanted their kids to go to the higher rated schools, meanwhile those in the lower rated schools, dropped lower, because the butt-backwards philosophy of giving more money based on higher performance on state tests. When reality is, the lower rated schools needed help, not take money way.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Dawg Talker
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And this forced racial diversity thing is so B.S. to me. I'm sorry, but this should happen naturally.
True... Problem is, when the bussing policies started, many school systems were politically "gerrymandered" to exclude blacks, but were described to the courts as "local schools." In some cases, new school systems were created by the courts, in others, bussing was used as the answer to the diversity issue.
Because of forced bussing in the 60's and 70's, there is LESS of a need for it now. I'm not saying there is no need for it, I'm saying that there is less of a need because there are fewer governmental decisions based on exclusionary racial policies now than there were 35 to 40 years ago.
Now the issues tend to be poverty related, and as you stated, more blacks fall below the poverty level than whites. Example... Hurricane Katrina... Were more blacks forced to stay in behind New Orleans because they were poor, or were they forced to stay behind because they were black? How do you answer that? There are so many issues, and sub-issues to that question that the courts will be busy for years, trying to deal with poverty/race related questions.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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We live in a diverse world, and it would be to our children's benefits to learn something about the people they will eventually sit next to on the train, or work with, or order their big mac from.
Then it would be to our children's benefit for the parents of our children.. i.e. US... to stop buying houses in neighborhoods of predominantly "our own kind"... I mean isn't that WHY a school would be predominantly black or predominantly white? Because the parents of those kids moved to that neighborhood... with other black or white people, like themselves. So you certainly can't blame the kids, and you can't really blame the school board for not jumping through hoops to correct a problem that the parents obviously don't care much about..... Blame the parents, both black and white, who seek out homes in racially unified areas...
I agree with Florida about the bussing and other nightmares.. school boards are all broke if you ask them... so let's see, what would I rather have the school board spend money so my kid could have access to a better teacher, new computers and better textbooks or spend the money on fuel and bus drivers to ship him 20 miles to a different school so he can sit next to a kid of a different race? That's a no-brainer....
yebat' Putin
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Blame the parents, both black and white, who seek out homes in racially unified areas...
It is human nature to live in an area that reflects your standards/traits.
That said.....do the best you can and don't worry about what color your neighbor might be.
As to busing....a failure.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Then it would be to our children's benefit for the parents of our children.. i.e. US... to stop buying houses in neighborhoods of predominantly "our own kind"... I mean isn't that WHY a school would be predominantly black or predominantly white? Because the parents of those kids moved to that neighborhood... with other black or white people, like themselves. So you certainly can't blame the kids, and you can't really blame the school board for not jumping through hoops to correct a problem that the parents obviously don't care much about..... Blame the parents, both black and white, who seek out homes in racially unified areas...
In a perfect world, that might be true. But affordability is a VERY big issue. It's economics man, not always race. If you can only afford to live in a neighborhod with bad schools and it just so happens, that thousands of other people facing similar issues all live in that neighborhood too...and they look just like you...what options do you readily have available to you. You could suck it up, and try to save up enough to move. That's not always realistic, some do, most don't (some can't).
But you're right, it's not the kids' fault! I think mostly white people move to neighborhoods with predominently white neighbors. You hear more about blacks moving to white suburbia, the whites moving to white ghettos. Why? Economics!!
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I agree with Florida about the bussing and other nightmares.. school boards are all broke if you ask them... so let's see, what would I rather have the school board spend money so my kid could have access to a better teacher, new computers and better textbooks or spend the money on fuel and bus drivers to ship him 20 miles to a different school so he can sit next to a kid of a different race? That's a no-brainer....
I'm not saying it's fiscally sound, I just don't have a problem with it. If they want it to happen, it will. Where there's a will, there's a way. If they don't want it, it won't happen.
I know plenty of people that live in the ghettoest of 'hoods, that were very smart, but the schools they went to, barely had books. If that mind could have been nurtured at a better school, it would be able to make better choices. If they could have been around other groups of people, they may better equipped to enter the work force. There's basically two languages in this country, educated and uneducated. Why? Economics!!!
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Blame the parents, both black and white, who seek out homes in racially unified areas...
Forgive me if I'm over-generalizing, but I don't think blacks seek to live with other blacks...they get stuck there. On the flip side, I don't think many whites are saying 'I want to live near other whites'...again, I think it comes down to class...they want to live in nice neighborhoods, which, common sense tells us, will be predominatly white neighborhoods.
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I know plenty of people that live in the ghettoest of 'hoods, that were very smart, but the schools they went to, barely had books. If that mind could have been nurtured at a better school, it would be able to make better choices. If they could have been around other groups of people, they may better equipped to enter the work force. There's basically two languages in this country, educated and uneducated. Why? Economics!!!
But why is that school poorly funded and the one up the street not? Why should all school not receive the exact same funding per student?
The current system of rewarding higher graded schools, just pushes the lower graded schools even lower, it's a poor system that is working against what it was intended to.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Forgive me if I'm over-generalizing, but I don't think blacks seek to live with other blacks...they get stuck there.
There might be some truth in that.. however, I've never lived in an area where all whites were wealthy or all blacks were poor... I can tell you just from driving around north Raleigh, there are plenty of wealthy neighborhoods and plenty of poor ones... and in driving by the poor ones, it's not all that uncommon to see a dozen white people outside.. then in the next neighborhood to see a dozen hispanics in one and blacks in another... seldom have I driven by a poor neighborhood or tailer park and seen blacks, whites, and hispanics together.
yebat' Putin
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It created huge busing issues, busing kids all over the county (yes schools down here are county not city) So imagine your kid being bused from Westlake to Parma everyday.
If they got a good education, and got to experience other communities and people...I'm all for it, if they have to ride a little longer to get to school, so be it.
But that's just me
I agree to a point - if they are being bussed away from a good school that they could get a good education at to go to a different school just to meet a quota I'm not for that...
Personally I think our time would be better spent trying to raise the level of the poor and underprivileged schools rather than worry about how many whites, blacks, yellows, or whatever are in the school.
I liked what someone above said about trying to focus on the undereducated and poor rather than purely race.
But I do agree with you 100% that we live in a diverse world and the EARLIER we can expose our children to different cultures the better. I grew up in a very diverse public school system until I was a freshman and asked to be transfered to the private school (which I think had one minority family). It was extremely sad to see how ignorant most of my classmates were at the private school when it came to other races simply because they had not be exposed to them at an early age.
<><
#gmstrong
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Supreme Court Chief Justice Roberts said, "“The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discrimination on the basis of race,” Chief Justice Roberts wrote.
Oversimplification? Maybe! Is it a true statement? Yes!
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Has anyone figured out that promoting segregation is wrong? Before anyone jumps to any conclusions........
Forced integration will never work. Why? Because it's forced. It doesn't matter which race is bussed where, as those people that are forced into a new environment will be as resentful as the people they are forced upon. This rings true throughout our country. People are always more accepting of the familiar, and prefer to create their communities out of that familiarity.
When I've house hunted in the past, the school system was just as important as the house. I also figure in all the convienience factors like stores, roads, commute to work, etc. I like that my kids can come home and play with the same friends they have in school. I like that I am able to pick their school. I would be severely angry if my kids were bussed to another school to become "those kids".
I live in a navy town, so it is a diverse town. Yes, there are predominately white, black, and asian neighborhoods, but there is also good integration. I can't help that someone stuck into a particular school because of their economic backround, and I also see no reason to penalize me and mine because of ours. If we were all meant to be equal, we'd all look alike. The schools in my area are fairly equal, and that is the true key.
I agree with the supreme court in this issue, because I feel that the segregation of our country will only end when we stop segregating it legally. Programs like Afirmative Action should be abolished because of their racial quotas. If I was a business owner, I'd like to be able to hire whoever I thought was best for the job, and not be forced to hire the token black/white/asian, etc. As a worker, I'd like to be hired on the merits of my abilites, not due to the color of my skin. I would also not want to be looked over for a job based on skin color or quotas.
I believe racism will only stop when we stop looking at race as a qualifier.
![[Linked Image from s2.excoboard.com]](http://s2.excoboard.com/forums/25521/user/302752/484538.gif)
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Forced integration will never work. Why? Because it's forced.
Exactly Erik.
If anything, it probably retards the process.
Segregation is a natural human process.
We all do it everyday for whatever reason.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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What ever happened to the tried and true method of determining who goes to school where? I mean, until I was 7, we lived in a town that required I attend Uniontown PA schools,,, But at 7 we moved to another town that requred I go to Perry School systems.. It was easy, it was based upon where you lived.
Race never even entered the picture..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
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I know plenty of people that live in the ghettoest of 'hoods, that were very smart, but the schools they went to, barely had books. If that mind could have been nurtured at a better school, it would be able to make better choices. If they could have been around other groups of people, they may better equipped to enter the work force. There's basically two languages in this country, educated and uneducated. Why? Economics!!!
But why is that school poorly funded and the one up the street not? Why should all school not receive the exact same funding per student?
The current system of rewarding higher graded schools, just pushes the lower graded schools even lower, it's a poor system that is working against what it was intended to.
That's one of the reasons the current school funding system in Ohio was declared Unconstitutional by the Ohio Supreme Court.... Trying to level the playing field for all school systems... Unfortunately, the legislature has yet to find an answer to the problem.... 
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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2nd String
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So people who pay higher property taxes to put their children in good schools are now paying to have other children bussed in??? Wow. It sounds like it works out like this: I work hard to put my children in a great school district and pay the higher property taxes that come with that. Now, my money goes towards others being bussed in with less education that could possibly have an adverse affect on test scores and lower the quality of education for the community. Thereby, decreasing property value in the community. Doesn't sound so good. Whatever happened to working hard to get to where you want to be rather than having everything given to you? I hope I read into the court ruling correctly or I just wasted time with this post. 
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My town (actually a village) [edit] Demographics As of the censusGR2 of 2000, there were 2,866 people, 1,086 households, and 822 families residing in the village. The population density was 892.4/km² (2,303.2/mi²). There were 1,123 housing units at an average density of 349.7/km² (902.5/mi²). The racial makeup of the village was 99.16% White, 0.24% African American, 0.01% Native American, 0.10% Asian, 0.17% from other races, and 0.31% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.98% of the population. There were 1,086 households out of which 34.3% had children under the age of 18 living with them, 63.4% were married couples living together, 9.3% had a female householder with no husband present, and 24.3% were non-families. 22.5% of all households were made up of individuals and 11.1% had someone living alone who was 65 years of age or older. The average household size was 2.57 and the average family size was 3.01. In the village, the population was spread out with 24.6% under the age of 18, 5.4% from 18 to 24, 25.6% from 25 to 44, 24.8% from 45 to 64, and 19.6% who were 65 years of age or older. The median age was 42 years. For every 100 females there were 92.2 males. For every 100 females age 18 and over, there were 87.3 males. The median income for a household in the village was $47,273, and the median income for a family was $55,486. Males had a median income of $42,857 versus $23,603 for females. The per capita income for the village was $23,924. About 4.5% of families and 6.1% of the population were below the poverty line, including 8.8% of those under age 18 and 13.2% of those age 65 or over. As of the 2000 census[1], Poland township had a total population of 14,711, with 3,679 of residents being under the age of 18. The racial makeup of the township was 98.89% White, 0.20% African American, 0.01% Native American, 0.01% Asian, 0.01% from other races, and 0.01% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.01% of the population. The median age of males was 42.3, and the median age of females was 43.0 The average household size was 2.66 and the average family size was 3.05. Now I would have perferred to live in a more diverse community but I don't because of schools and crime.
Poland Ohio U.S. Median household income $52,007 $46,008 $44,684 Cost of living (% of national avg) 86% 92% 100% Unemployment 6% 5% 5% Violent crime index (1 is lowest) 1 2 3 Student SubgroupsSource: OH Dept. of Education, 2005-2006 This District State Average Economically disadvantaged students 6% 35% Disabled students 9% 14% Gifted students 22% 16% Migrant students n/a <1% Limited English proficient (LEP) students n/a 2% Spending Per Pupil This District State Average
Total per pupil expenditures $7,322 $9,052
On standardized testing my district is above 90% in every grade, every subject with very few exceptions. 2 grades of math (87% low) and one of science (again 87% low). The reason for such high scores is not in my mind because we are white but primarily because the percentage of financially disadvantage students is only 6%. There is no comparing my district to the Youngstown City Schools except for this. Spending Per Pupil This District State Average
Total per pupil expenditures $12,560 $9,052
Even though they spend 5,000 more per child the results are dismal. Money for kids doesn't buy equity, either does intergration. The key is to develop a strategy to help those disadvantage youths before they ever reach school. Head start I believe has helped but more needs to be done. Too many poor children get a terrible start to life do to their family situations. Until that gets rectified you will always have an inordinate amount of minorities recieving poor education, not because they are minorities but because they come from disadvantaged homes. http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/oh/district_profile/450/
#gmstrong
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Throwing money at schools doesn't help. It has been proved time after time. Disapline and parents involvment would help a lot.
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Quote:
Throwing money at schools doesn't help. It has been proved time after time. Disapline and parents involvment would help a lot.
But you can't cut the money off either...Discipline won't buy books and pay teachers
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Legend
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But you can't cut the money off either...Discipline won't buy books and pay teachers
That's the great Catch-22 with public schools. How do you reward good education and use of public funds without hindering the bad schools that could potentially need it?
The problem with using tax dollars is, in order to get more money ... you offer a worse product and tell everybody, "look how bad it is ... we need more money." So you best bet to get more money is to waste it and just offer worse education.
On the flip side, if you reward school who manage the money well and give a good education, they are just going to be able to offer better education with more money ... while the school with poor education are just going to get worse.
So what do you do? Make the bad schools worse? Or reward bad use of public funds?
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Legend
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Simple, you give each school the same.
It is tax dollars, so it should be spread evenly amongst the student population.
You get x.xx amount of dollars per student. The school with the best money management will prevail, hopefully with a honest and concerned school board and community watching over them, and if spending proves to be frivolous, then that school's administration goes through changes.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Quote:
Simple, you give each school the same.
It is tax dollars, so it should be spread evenly amongst the student population.
You get x.xx amount of dollars per student. The school with the best money management will prevail, hopefully with a honest and concerned school board and community watching over them, and if spending proves to be frivolous, then that school's administration goes through changes.
I kinda agree with you...if you spread it evenly, it will be a little more apparent who's wasting and who's budgeting.
The x factor is the condition of the building. Is the majority of the money going to the poor school, being spent just to keep the building from being condemned?
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Then schools have no incentive to get better ... all will claim they need "more". Just look at the private school sector. Almost all private school operate on a budget much lower than that of an equivilent public school, yet almost all offer a much better education as well.
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Building and property upkeep comes from other coffers within the school district, not at the individual school level. Just like they budget for new schools to be built, they budget for school repairs, and then they also have a budget for student spending.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Building and property upkeep comes from other coffers within the school district, not at the individual school level. Just like they budget for new schools to be built, they budget for school repairs, and then they also have a budget for student spending.
I hope that's true, but it doesn't seem that it is. Especially Cleveland City Schools
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Spending Per Pupil This District State Average Total per pupil expenditures $10,728 $9,052 Breakdown By Expenditure Instructional 57% 56% Operations 18% 19% Support services 15% 13% Administration 10% 13% http://www.greatschools.net/cgi-bin/oh/district_profile/56#financeCleveland schools get a $1700 per child above the state average.
#gmstrong
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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It should be that way, because how do you determine how much a school gets for upkeep. A new building obviously needs less than an old building, the smart thing to do would be to have a pot of money for the district, and the administrators would prioritize the repairs, and then go about having those repairs made based on the cash at hand/priority of repair. Seems common sense to me, but this is governmental bureaucracy we are dealing with. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
It should be that way, because how do you determine how much a school gets for upkeep. A new building obviously needs less than an old building, the smart thing to do would be to have a pot of money for the district, and the administrators would prioritize the repairs, and then go about having those repairs made based on the cash at hand/priority of repair.
Seems common sense to me, but this is governmental bureaucracy we are dealing with.
Exactly, there's no telling where that money actually goes, but there's no way that the Cleveland Board of Education can convince me that they spend their money wisely. Same with Columbus City Schools. They're horrible.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
That's what I'm getting at ... if there's no way to reward those who spend money the right way, then the school board just wastes it. Then we get the whole school bond cherade of "Vote for this bond to increase funds, otherwise you don't care about the children."
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Until someone is able to get a handle on the discipline problems, social rather than educational ciriculum courses, voucher transfer ability and merit pay for excellent teachers..quietly and blindly sending your kids to kids to public inner city schools is a form of child abuse.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Unfortunately, discipline won't come from the schools. In today's soccer mom world, that just won't happen.
So, that need not even be discussed unless we're talking about terrible parents.
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good" Thomas Paine
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