DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2017 NFL Season 2017 NFL Draft Who should we draft in 2017? v3.0

I picked McCaffrey and Scott because they were still on the board at their respective picks.

Your score is: 11270 (GRADE: A-)

Your Picks:
Round 1 Pick 1: Myles Garrett, DE/OLB, Texas A&M (A+)
Round 1 Pick 6 (NYJ): Malik Hooker, FS/SS, Ohio State (A+)
Round 2 Pick 20: Christian McCaffrey, RB, Stanford (A+)
Round 3 Pick 1: Pat Elflein, C/OG, Ohio State (A)
Round 4 Pick 1: Isaiah Ford, WR, Virginia Tech (A+)
Round 4 Pick 36: Davis Webb, QB, California (B+)
Round 5 Pick 1: Artavis Scott, WR, Clemson (A+)
Round 5 Pick 31: DeAngelo Brown, DT, Louisville (A)
Round 5 Pick 34: Channing Stribling, CB, Michigan (A)
Round 6 Pick 1: Aarion Penton, CB, Missouri (A-)

Your Future Picks:
2018 Round 1 Pick
2019 Round 1 Pick

I combined 1/12, 2/1, and 3/36 to move up to 1/6 to get Hooker. In reality 3/36 went to NE for Collins, and I'm hoping we trade 2/1 and maybe another for JG. I'd still want Elflein, Webb and a CB, but the rest of those picks could be trade chips. (Not that I'd complain about McCaffrey, Ford, or Scott.)

j/c:

I can tell that people didn't take the time to read the articles that I posted. Plain ol' folks on a message board seemingly know way more about arm strength than scientists, engineers, and doctors.

I'm not sure your articles say exactly what you think they do. That or I'm misunderstanding the point you are trying to make with them. The initial one definitely talked about wanting to do further research into how one improves "arm strength". It appears that such a statement would indicate that improvement is possible. How one improves that arm strength appears unclear as of yet. The different factors that are believed to affect throwing "speed" are addressed, but, as far as how much you can affect those factors and the best ways to do so, there doesn't seem to be much consensus.

Do you know if there are many football specific articles on the topic? There is some correlation between throwing in general, but I think there are distinct differences in football as well.

Here are some articles I have found:

https://blogs.usafootball.com/blog/668/tips-for-young-qbs-to-increase-arm-strength

http://www.espn.com/high-school/baseball/story/_/id/7238488/improving-arm-strength

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/21/sports...he-feet-up.html

http://livehealthy.chron.com/increase-throwing-strength-football-9241.html

I'm looking for more "scientific" articles on "arm strength", but they seem to be more focused on biceps and triceps in general than the ability to throw, so far.

I think the core is often overlooked when discussing the throwing strength topic. There are those QBs who seem able to just flick the ball without having their feet set, but I think core muscles are more involved in that than people realize.

One simple question: Why don't all QBs SIGNIFICANTLY improve their arm strength if it such an easy thing to do?

I really can't believe people are arguing this.

I'm done!

Who said it was easy? I'm sure it takes hard/a lot of work.

The literature also seems to suggest that many of the beliefs out there about improving arm strength are wrong.

Here's an article out of the UK with some scientific journal references that seems informative:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/strength...striking-40845#

Here's another more generic skill training article with references that appears to have some tie ins:

https://breakingmuscle.com/learn/trainin...apply-it-part-3

Let me guess, you won't read them because they might cause you to look critically at your long-held beliefs?

I like a lot of the stuff you post and you have knowledge and experience, but you seem to fall into the confirmation bias trap and have trouble allowing that there are other perspectives for looking at complex issues.

I'm not trying to make grand declarations, I'm just trying to look at all the possibilities and as much research as possible.

It's just like clubhead speed in golf.. most people could train day and night and they aren't going to get the clubhead speed up to 115-120 where the pros are.. either you have that or you don't.

Tiger bulked up a lot when he was at his best and didn't affect his clubhead speed... now it may have caused his body to break down but that's a different issue.

I already explained that there is simply a threshold of human capacity that no amount of God given talent will take you past short of some super human mutations. Just like your not going to turn a talentless kid into a Brett Favre.

What you can do is turn just about any kid who is willing to work hard for many years even if they are fresh out of college in a guy that can throw a 50-60 yard pass accurately. Beyond that you're going to need something extra. There are very few passes even beyond 40+ yards though so that means you can build up a player's arm for football to be more than adequate for the NFL. It just takes a LOT of hard work that most are not willing to do.

When did I ever say it was easy? I said it was HARD work and took YEARS.

I even explained how to do it. I mean feel free to learn football from a lab if you want to but there are practical results from real life experience that shows that you can definitely improve a player's ability to throw the football harder and with more velocity.

If you want long muscle its more complicated than just stretching you have to exercise with a motion that uses full range of motion instead of a tighter exercise targeting a specific muscle use. It tougher to work out that way but I have found that it makes you a lot stronger and have muscles far less likely to tear.

It's impossible for me to believe that. Half of, if not more, teams in the NFL can't find QB's that can throw an accurate pass 50 or 60 yards.

If what you said were true, there would be a plethora of QB's out there to choose from. This isn't even worthy of debate.

Mechanics?

There are a lot of bad coaches out there some even in the NFL so I don't know why you find it surprising.

A quick release is a biggy, if you can react fast and before a DB has a chance to react.

Who has the fastest set up and release in this years draft class? I know the answer, just putting that out there to see who is paying attention.

Btw its not even a close race. Think multiplication, not addition.

No. Mechanics only take you your potential. They allow you to deliver the ball in a way that best allows you to reach your maximum velocity on a more consistent basis. Again, we are talking about people who have been coached.

Same in football. At some point, every body has a limit, and every body isn't the same. You aren't going to take a 22 year old who has recorded a top pitch of 90, with a bunch at 87 and turn him in to Nolan Ryan tossing it above 100 at will. You aren't going to take Kesslers arm and have him slinging it like Elway. Evey player has a physical limit.

All of those guys have had plenty of coaching that has gotten them very close to their max potential. At this point, it is pretty much as it is.

peen...............just ignore them. They are making a dumb ass argument that is completely false.

They just are swinging something.

No one can answer this simple question: "Why haven't NFL QBs significantly improved their arm strength?"

This is so freaking stupid that it's not even comprehensible, but Grimm is involved, so I guess I get it...........kinda.

Many NFL QBs have indeed improved arm strength. House has been doing a pretty good job of it from his QB center. There is a reason Hue loves the work House does for building up NFL QB's.

Why not everyone? Because its a tough regimen that takes years and not all of these kids have the mental fortitude to do it.

Name them!

A poster made a good point about QBs who can process quickly. i.e. Brady.
Almost always, a QB who comes out of college with 'average arm strength' , stays that way.

I have always enjoyed lifting weights. My mother was disabled from a car accident so I spent a lot of time learning to do physical therapy because her health insurance didn't cover it. I've been studying it since I was 14 years old actually. I'm not a doctor though because I don't enjoy putting my hands all over strangers.

At your age swimming is perfect for getting fit without stressing your joints. Yoga is really good for stretching out your joints and muscles too but just stick with the simple stuff and don't get crazy.

One thing I can recommend is just wearing a simple weight vest with an extra 10 to 20 pounds while going for a simple walk and put the weights into the back slots so that it counters your stomach weight and auto corrects your posture. Get one with a cross chest harness strap so it doesn't bite into your shoulders. I also HIGHLY recommend a glucosamine liquid supplement to help out your joints. Combine that with a whiskey shot of dark cherry extract for anti inflammation and you will have some good results.

Make sure to get lots of potassium from things like northern beans, pinto beans, green beans, kale, and spinach. Bananas and potatoes have less potassium with starch and sugar that you don't need. That being said Bananas are high in B6 which is used in muscle restoration. Spinach is also high in b6. Wild Tuna and Salmon are also really high in B6 so if your muscles are aching try having a salmon steak with a spinach and baby kale salad. You will feel great the next day!

I was going to quit responding to this nonsense, but it is so nonsensical, that I can't stop. If they would stop........I would, too.

But, come on......man! Why wouldn't QBs NOT want to significantly improve their arm strength? Give me one good reason.

So, if we can agree that arm strength is a good thing..............then why the hell doesn't it happen? Are people really saying that guys like Ken Dorsey is lazy? Is Colt McCoy?

Hell.................why wouldn't EVERY qb in the football NOT want to significantly improve his arm strength?

Their argument is so freakign stupid that it defies logic. Please stop.

Oh, and no lamp...........I am not talking to you. Just clikced on your post.

Because arm strength isn't the most important aspect of QB play, perhaps?

Once you have the "required arm strength" things like accuracy, timing, and being able to read defenses become more important. There is a genetic factor that limits improving arm strength, but where do you see that it is impossible to improve?

Read Drew Brees' Book "Coming Back Stronger." He writes about improving his velocity post shoulder surgery. Clearly it can be done.

I don't think there is a quick fix like in the movie "Rookie of the Year", but I think gradual improvement is possible and the scientific studies seem to support that position.

Did you read my links, Vers? Or are people just supposed to read yours?

Tom Brady will tell you that House has helped his throwing ability a TON, Cody Kessler gained a lot more velocity to his throws after working with House, Andy Dalton throws a deep ball much better since working with House, Drew Brees(Many forget that he had major shoulder surgery and had to learn how to throw all over again before moving to New Orleans)

That's all I have off the top of my head.

You realize that there are waiting lists of NFL QB's to work with House because most of the top NFL QBs are screaming to work with him. So there are plenty of QBs trying to get a chance to learn but not enough coaches that know how to teach it.

Why are you making a fool out of yourself? Is winning a debate on message board that important to you that you are simply spewing nonsense?

You are actually questioning why a qb would want to improve his arm strength?

Grimm.......this is why I typically don't respond to you. Go play w/the kids.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing. I was reading earlier today, in espn the mag, about a subject like this - arm strength.

It made sense to me. Maybe tomorrow I'll try to link to it. It was in the most recent espn the mag though.

So.............only one guy knows how to teach how to improve arm strength? LMAO

Here is the bottom line, Razor..............guys like Kessler will ALWAYS have a [censored] poor arm no matter what he does.

As I have maintained for years, arm strength can be improved, but it's more of a genetic thing when you are talking about guys who compete at an upper level.

You guys are making crap up left and right. You can not name me guys who have SIGNIFICANTLY improved their arm strength.

You know what...............I have been proven wrong before and when I have..............I just say..."I was wrong." Try it. It doesn't make you less of a person. In fact, it makes you a bigger person than hanging onto the BS you guys are spewing.

Here are my thoughts:

1, Each individual has their own maximum. No matter how hard I train, there is no way that I can throw a football.

2, Arm strength can increase. Until it reaches that maximum. My proof? Name me a Qb who could through the ball 40 yards when they were 5 years old? As they grew and became stronger, their arm strength improved. Many of these young qb's are just that, young. They may not be done growing and maturing physically. Those that are not can certainly gain some arm strength. Especially with improvement in mechanics can have a noticeable improvement. Those that have physically matured may be able to have a little improvement but probably not so much that we can notice on tv.

3, The Qb that had the biggest increase in arm strength after entering the NFL is Drew Brees. With the physical therapy he went through following the injury (shoulder?) he threw the ball noticeably harder in NO than he did in SD.

Just my opinions.

Like I said believe me or not I don't much care. You ask for names I give you names. You ask how is it possible I explained it to you. Others posted articles. Top QB's in the league like Drew brees have shared testimony that they have experienced it.

You just have your mind made up and refuse to learn new information because your too set in your ways. On top of that you keep insulting people instead of being well mannered. So I'm done wasting my time trying to enlighten you.

1. Yes, I think there is a certain truth to genetics placing a limiter on people to a certain point. However your cells can be reprogrammed over time to do what you want them to.

2. The period of time to improve your physical skills limiter in my opinion is from 4 years old to 28 years old. Naturally the closer to end shelf at 28 the less likely you are to see noticeable improvement. That's because your body goes into more of a maintenance mode instead of improvement mode.

Most people don't know this but your cells regenerate and as they do they alter their programming to meet new demands. We take advantage of this when we build up muscle memory. It also works with other body functions too.

Think of a scar. Your body doesn't need it and it's not in the original body plan design. Yet even though skin cells die off they keep reproducing the scar because that repair was added to their programming. Over long periods of times those scars shrink ad fade away as the programming code wears away as new cells are reproduced without the need for it.

Broken bones heal back thicker and stronger to the point many athletes and damage themselves on purpose to encourage bone remodeling. They can even put microfractures in your legs and arm bones to make them grow longer.

In this same way your body will adapt to the tasks it needs to do over time. It's a constant state of evolution so to speak. You can even change what you enjoy eating every 2 weeks by eating something on a regular basis. Thus the phrase, "It's an acquired taste." It's because as your tongue cells die off every 10 days they are replaced by ones that favor what you have recently been eating. It's a simple survival mechanism.

So in the right situation your limiters can be turned off and you can be allowed to improve BUT it takes serious effort over a long period of time because you are fighting against your natural design. There will still be that guy with loads of natural talent who was just made for it that you will never surpass though if he is also working hard to improve. Many times becoming GOOD is more than enough though. We don't have to all be the best to be worthwhile people.

3. Yes, Drew is a perfect example of how doing the work can give you the results. If we work hard then we can surpass the limits placed upon us.

As if this thread wasn't crappy enough......

Don't half arse it. If you got something to say then say it. Then back it up if you can. You're certainly entitled to your own opinions but snarky little comments don't express opinion. Just an inability to say what's on your mind.

Then you came along....

I'm pretty sure you don't respond to me because you don't like looking bad and typically have to resort to ad hominem attacks and deflection.

I'm not spewing anything. I'm presenting researched information and possibilities. I'm not claiming absolutes.

I never said a QB wouldn't want to improve arm strength. I did say it wasn't the most important attribute or focus. Which of us is being ridiculous?

I'm saying that QB arm strength can be improved. QBs want to be the best they can be, so of course they want to improve it. Is it instantaneous? No. Is it significant? It can be. It is much easier to improve if you aren't already nearly maxed out. How do you know who is already maxed out? You can't tell by simply looking at them. In one of the articles I referenced it talks about throwing being a lot of processes tied together and an individual is limited by the weakest link. Does Cody have a weak link he can improve that has been overlooked due to the constant turnover he dealt with at USC? It seems possible.

Maybe I should be the one asking you, "Is winning a debate on message board that important to you that you are simply spewing nonsense?"

Nope. You win!

QBs significantly improve their arm strength all the time in the NFL. Next year, Kessler's arm will be every bit as strong as Rodgers' arm.

So I win and you still spew nonsense. Awesome. Maybe we can get back to talking about who we should Draft now.

Myles Garrett seems to be the non-QB consensus at one. Does anyone have any later round guys they are high on?

The guys I was high on who seemed like later round guys seem to be going much higher now-Lamp, Kpassagnon, etc.

I'll have to do some digging again. I do want to dig more into the BC Safety/CB Johnson (?) and safety Montae Nicholson (sp?) from Mich. St.

Anyone else have under the radar guys to look at?

I like Daeshon Hall quite a bit. He might soar at the combine though.

Yes, you a poster on a message board has found the magic bullet that most of the NFL are missing. lmao