DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Garoppolo Part Three

I don't see how were going to be able to get both Garrett and Jimmy ... i just don't see it not taking the #1 to get him ... IF he is available via trade ... its not the no-brainer most think it is ... We have no idea what value Bill places on him ... what i do know is most on here way UNDERESTIMATE his value to the Pats .... but thats irrelivent to this discussion ... at least what i'm bringing to the table ...

my guess is for a 1st rnd pick anywhere he will be available ...

So Jimmy becomes available ... and here's what we know ...

- none of the QB's coming out are that highly thought of ...
- SF (who now has a HC who all ready said he liked Jimmy when he came out), Chicago the Jets and the Bill's all have picks ahead of our 2nd pick and have a need ....

If SF, Chi-town, the Jets or the bills think Jimmy is the best QB in this draft and a guy they can build around ...

Would someone please explain to me why they wouldn't give up their top 11 pick for him? ..

How does that make sense? ... we'd be willing to give up our #12 for him but the others wouldn't give up higher picks because??????? ..

LOGICALLY please explain to me why Jimmy wouldn't be worth the 2nd pick in the draft to SF if Kyle thinks he can win with him? ...

Their other options are to draft one of the others who are not rated near that high at #2 or 3 or 6(jets i believe) or 11 ... OR to go after Kap, Taylor or Glennon ... NOT REAL VIABLE SOLUTIONS as they've all proven to not be even average NFL qb's ... OR to not adress the issue this year ...

So someone please explain to me WHY one of these other teams wouldn't force us to give up our #1 .... only way that happens is if we give up #12 and then our 1st next year or one of our 2nd's this year ... but i still don't know if that would compensate for giving up the 2nd, 3rd or 6th picks they could aquite from SF, Chi or the Jets ..

I don't see that being VIABLE ...

And i could care less what YOUR OPINION of Jimmy is .. my post has nothing to do with what your opinion is .. its about the variables that will determine what it will cost to get him ...... his price will be driven WAY UP DUE to the market for him and the absence of viable alternatives ...

Please educate me folks on why SF, Chicago and the Jets wouldn't be willing to give up their #1's for him ... please use SOME LOGIC ... ...

How's this for LOGIC?

He's not an experienced Vet with several years of Starting in the NFL.

Alternatively you can say that any of those teams willing to go QB Top 10, so why not Garoppolo? And you'd be right.

Then again a Top 10 QB won't cost anywhere near what Polo will get either this year or next.

I don't have a CLUE what I am saying. Lol.

Absolutely, you are right in how subjective of a term that is. I think it's one of those things that however we each choose to define it, we forget to actually define it in a post when making our points/counter-points.

j/c

Many people (here and elsewhere) talk about the O-line like it's in need of a complete overhaul. We have one of the best LT in the game, although he is aging, a good LG when healthy, a vacuum at C, a better than average RG when he's healthy and isn't being asked to play C, and 4-5 players competing for the RT job. We don't yet know if Coleman or Erving can be the answer at RT. I think the pressing need is C, followed by someone to eventually replace Thomas who can't play forever.

Back to the subject. Someone posted a while ago about trading for JG but not signing him to an extension until he proves he's the answer. Trading #33 (and change) is a steep price for a 1 year audition, but it is more reasonable (to me) than committing to a rookie who will take 3 years to prove out while we pass on guys with better odds of studding out in future drafts (Darnold, Rosen, names we don't yet know.)

Trade for JG. If he studs out, pay the man. If he doesn't, there's no hesitation about doing whatever it takes to get the best QB next year.

Demand drives price. The bears are IMO going to offer their 1st round pick.

I say keep our pick at 12, maybe look to trade back for another pick next year and go all in on a QB next year. We could look for a 1 next year and a 3rd this year.

I think it would be wise to solidify the O-line this year so the new rook next year has a decent line in front of him. Use this year to bring in some defensive help and a few O linemen to compete with the guys we have.

I do have hope for a couple of the young O-linemen. Reiter looked pretty good at center before he got hurt, and Coleman looked pretty darn good at RT in the last game.

I believe you could be right on the money diam.

I've said all along that the market will determine the cost. I've also said that the price will be driven high because of the demand for his services. I've also said his value will be determined on how many teams believe he will be a franchise QB.

I'm not sure it will take the #1 pick, but there's no reason to believe it won't.

Here's my thinking why it won't take the #1 pick ... the value of Miles Garret.

Yes QB is the most important position on the team. But drafting based on need is universally proclaimed/accepted as what you DON'T do. . . . Edge rusher is the 2nd most important position. And in this year's draft you have what some are considering a generational type talent - Elite. Projected as a true Beast.

While some might have an opinion that Jimmy G might be a great QB - there's no consensus that he's close to a generational talent and likely to be a perennial pro-bowler.

Given the choice between Jimmy G or Garret with the #1 pick - it's not even close. I take Garret every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

It may, and we just have to walk away from that. We have a team to build, and QB is just one part.

In the past we have tried to start with the QB and then build. We all know how that has worked. We can't make mistakes in this draft, at least with the for 3-4 picks.

They don't have to live up to every billing to not be a bust. We need to walk from this draft with 3-4 guys who can be solid starters, not only for us, but most other teams as well.

We as fans need to temper our expectations. I read one poster who said the #1 overall pick in the draft is a bust if he doesn't become a Hall of Fame player. Pretty crazy stuff right there.

DIAM your points are valid and as Pit alluded too the market will ultimately determine the price

I assume that is what BB is hoping for, a bidding war to drive that price.

That said any draft pick or in this case player acquired trading draft picks is taken based on the need and evaluation of the team doing the drafting. If that team determine re the player has say a #2 pick talent level then they take him. Perhaps those teams you noted don't think he us worthy of what they have to give up. Perhaps we don't even think he us worthy of #12

That imo is the only logical reason not to pull the trigger.

The reasons a team thinks a player is or isn't worthy is endless and a non winnable debate on either side

I agree with everything u just said ... EVERYTHING ...

But ... thats WHY we won't GIVE UP the #1 for him ... not WHY he won't COST US the #1 ... ...

IF Frisco or Chicago or the Jets or even the Bills at 11 believe Jimmy is a guy they can win with ... they'll give up their #1 to aquire him ... and thats all that really matters for what it will cost to get Jimmy ..

And I agree .. I would take Garrett over Jimmy or any of the other QB's available this year ..

I like Peen's plan ... we could give up our 1st and our 2nd or the Iggles 2nd next year along with a future pick to move up next year ... so we could use all our picks this year and still have the ammo to move up next year ...

Yep - very true, and you hit the nail on the head.... I would very much like JG. The positives in our favor:

- Trubisky is a very intriguing prospect. I wouldn't be surprised if someone in that Jets, Bears, 9ers group ends up coveting him and preferring him as an option.
- We have some recent trade history with NE - clearly there is some good will and clear communication between our 2 teams.
- We have enough ammo in additional picks this year and next year to offset someone else's higher first rounder... and to me Belichick is the kind of coach who would probably prefer two semi-high draft picks in a quality draft, than having 1 very high pick.

Gonna be a fun ride.

I see no way we give up #1 overall for Garappolo. While he has experience in New England's system, he is still unproven. He threw everything short in his couple of starts, and showed no real ability to push the ball down the field, or outside the hashmarks in his starts this year.

People complained about Kessler throwing short, well, that's exactly what Garappolo did as well. Kessler actually threw more passes in the 11-20 yards range than he did behind the LOS. That was not true of Garappolo. Kessler actually threw passes to the sidelines far more often than Garappolo did, as well. In short, Kessler used the whole field, and Garappolo did not.

I am not saying that Garappolo can't be a quality starting QB in the NFL, or that Kessler will be a better QB than Garappolo will be, but I do think that we need to proceed carefully. It scares the crap out of me when people even think of giving up #1 overall for him. No way do I do that. I would even be extremely cautious about giving up #12 for him. He better be an upper level QB for that price, because we can take 2 excellent, long term talents with #1 and #12.

Oh I certainly wasn't suggesting we trade our #1 pick to acquire him. I was just agreeing with Diam that it could be the price for him in order for us to land him.

Now people think it would take no1?

What do you think Shanny is going to give up for jimmy? 2, 34 and 2018s 1st? There's no way he'd offer that. 2 and 34 together are insanely overpaying compared to what everyone is saying. Even if SF did offer 2 and 34 for comparisons sake we have 12, 33 and 2 EXTRA 2nd rounds this and next year that no other team can offer.

The simple fact is we have more draft capital than any other team over the next 2 years and that not even counting no1. No team can outbid us if we want him unless some team literally offers a RG3 trade. You want to argue that someone will?

It's simple. If Shanahan believes that Jimmy G. is a franchise QB, he would feel he's well worth the #2 pick in the draft.

Right but 12, Tennessees 2nd and 2018 Eagles 2nd is worth more than 2.

Just to be clear ... i'm not saying we will ... i'm saying thats what it will take IMO ...

I would take the "sureR" thing at 1 and go with Garrett ... fills one of the two (LT and Edge Rusher) 2nd most important positions in football ...

It boggles my mind that folks on here think given the lack of viable alternatives that it will cost less than that ...

There's only 2 QB's I would feel good about having on our team after the dust settles ...

Mitch or Jimmy ... and IMO to get them your going to have to kiss the #1 pick good bye .... and i would rather take Garrett there ...

What else is Frisco throwing in there? .. not a fair comparision because your "shorting" what Frisco would give up ...

And Dude .. if Bill thinks Garrett is the next sure fire stud as an edge rusher and has ELITE SKILLS witch is the consesus ... he alone is worth way more than our 12, 33 and next years 2nd rounder ... WAY MORE ...

That statement is completely false. He made several beautiful long passes for big gains. I've posted video often enough that if you wanted to watch it you could have many times by now. You're free to not like Jimmy G. all you want but at least be truthful in what you post. His avg yards per attempt is 8+ yards per pass. Which is far from dink and dunking it.

You saying that it will take the first overall pick to get JImmy G doesn't make it true.

Furthermore, the Browns have way more ammunition than any team in the league. You are pretending it has to be for one pick. That isn't true. A team can put together a package.

People cry about how badly we need a qb and then when there is an opportunity to get one..........they say it will cost too much. LOL..

Look, it comes down to this. The Browns either think he is going to be a very good qb or they don't. If they believe in his skills and his mental/emotional make-up........they try and make the trade.

All this other stuff about being injury prone, costing a lot of money, is just rhetoric that is clouding the picture.

I can tell who the guys are who don't like Jimmy G. You're one of them. That's fine, bro. It does not bother me if you don't think he is a good qb. But please, stop the charade.

*LOL* ... if i didn't like Jimmy I'd say so .. u think i got shy al of a sudden ... *LMAO* ...

I said there's 2 qb's i'd be happy with on our roster when the dust settles .. and JIMMY IS ONE OF THEM ... yet, u say i don't like him ...

U either didn't read what i ACTUALLY SAID or your having a bad reading comprehension day ...

Your problem, not mine .. go re-read what i actually said .. then if u want to have a chat about it .. i'm game ... U MISREPRESENTED everything i said ... not going to waste my time on BS ...

I don't like Jimmy G ... BYE BYE CREDIBILITY ...

Sorry, I know this was directed specifically at Vers but....

Week 4 vs Washington when Reiter was playing C (or, any of the times that Greco stepped in as C) we were better.

Erving is the weak link as is, arguably, Pasztor (C & RT). But, Erving, in particular, has been a real issue.

I think between Coleman, Erving, and Drango we will find a RT. I'd like to draft Elflein for C. I have no objection to getting an OT but after the first 2 rounds.

My dream draft; #1 Garrett, #12 Hooker or 1 of the top CB, #33(+) trade for JG, #52 Elflein.

Keep in mind Washington's DL is tuuurible.

Sorry Mac but you were definitely insinuating in your post that Jimmy G. is injury prone and a high risk for reinjury. You flat out ask the question, "Is Jimmy G. injury prone ..." and then you keep pushing the issue. So after all that you're going to try and say that is not what you were arguing? Who do you think you're kidding?

The guy got hit the wrong way and got hurt for the first time in his career. He is not injury prone and no one else really thinks that.

At least you admit there is not enough data to say he is injury prone so from now on we don't have to listen to you drag it up anymore right? Or is your mantra still going to be he is a high risk of being injured more than a normal QB on this team would.

Or is your argument that since we don't have a good o-line that we should not invest in a QB period since we can't keep ANY QB healthy?

The simple answer to me is that you draft or trade for your best hope of a franchise QB and then you make sure you build an O-line that will keep him healthy. We have plenty of 2nd and 3rd rounds picks to make that happen.

Unless we solidify our o-line any QB we get is going to be injury prone. Tom Brady would never have been the QB here that he is in N.E. The thing that bothers me the most is that we had an opportunity in 2014 to draft the right QB, a 3 out of 4 chance and we took the wrong guy. If we had drafted DC, TB or JG then we wouldn't be going through this right now. But of course I'm not stating anything anyone on this board doesn't know. Hopefully we get it right this time whatever we decide to do.

Jimmy G. is almost as much of a risk as a rookie QB would be. He hasn't played enough to show anybody that he has what it takes to be a franchise QB. Will he be better then this years rookie class? possibly? Possibly not? We don't know. It's a huge risk to take, as it would be to draft one this year at #12. Which is why I wouldn't give more then one of the second rounders for Jimmy. But QB is our biggest need and we need to find one, but we also need to make the right decision on that QB, can't really afford to make another wrong decision, whichever that decision is.

this is the hit on JG...thought I would post due to the discussion about his durability.
he landed hard on his shoulder, then rolled through it...

BS?

Okay, go talk to the dolts. Makes no difference to me.

mac.......you have been harping on Jimmy G's injury history for quite awhile. Numerous posts over the last month.

You don't argue fairly. You make stuff up and then get insulted if called on it.

Then, there is the beaut:



I said............"the OL is not nearly as bad as some claim.

You come back w/"when did the Browns offensive line get better in 2016."

Those are two different comments. Once again, you aim is to deceive.

mac, the Brown's OL was ranked in the middle of the pack this past year. About the same as the previous year.

You ignore things like QBs holding the ball too long, the team trailing by large margins and needing to pass, and an inexperienced WR corps that did not always get open.

You just cite sack totals. Gee, that's intelligent.

mac, save your horse crap for others.

Isn't Elflein kind of small for a NFL center?

I think Elflien will fall in the draft due to his size.

Ethan Pocic will be the first Center taken in the draft.

After the Senior Bowl Jon Toth will probably move up as the second Center drafted. He had the highest grade of all OLineman during the Senior Bowl and played on Hue Jackson's South squad.

he is listed as 6'3" and 295 lbs...are we talking about his weight? or his height?...don't really pay attention to those types of things, so not really sure...seems tho if he puts on 20 lbs? he should be ok?

Height. There is some film from the Clemson game that scouts are using that backs up their concerns.

gotcha

just looked at Mike M. stats and he is 6'2" and he looked really small last year...so I see what you mean

I'd be more than happy if we drafted Toth and Davenport (Bucknell) later on. Davenport has the tools to make a good LT down the line.

No one is saying it's fact. It's sharing news about conversations had with people in the NFL.

Relax.

The very same media that "reports" this stuff refers to this part of the league year as: "lying season"