DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The 4-3 defense and our current roster.

How do you guys see our current personnel fitting Williams defense?

Bryant, Desmond DL 6-6 310 possible 3 tech.
Cooper, Xavier DL 6-4 300 possible 3 tech.
Nassib, Carl DL 6-7 275 LDE
Shelton, Danny DL 6-2 335 NT but I'm not 100% he fits what Williams wants to do
Ogbah, Emmanuel DL/LB 6-4 275 either DE spot
Alexander, Dominique LB 6-0 235 weakside LB
Collins Sr., Jamie LB 6-3 250 strongside LB
Davis, Demario LB 6-2 248 MLB
Kirksey, Christian LB 6-2 235 weakside LB
Orchard, Nate LB 6-4 255 RDE/pass rusher wide 9
Schobert, Joe LB 6-1 245 possible all 3 LB positions

pretty much all that but you forgot Tyrone Holmes who I would guess would be ahead of Orchard, seeing as how he was ahead of and more productive than him in our four man fronts last year.

I could see Bryant, Davis, Cooper, and Orchard all being cut before the start of the 2017 season.

Definitely a possibility. I would put the likelihood of being cut at:

1) Orchard
2) Bryant
3) Davis
4) Cooper

I agree. It's just a numbers game. We are going to draft and sign about 20 more guys (unless we trade a ton of picks). Someone has to go.

Orchard was on IR since week 3

Who's gonna replace those guys you see being cut? Orchard is still young and would be returning to a position wherein college he had a ton of production. Cooper is still young, fairly cheap and could be better in the 4-3, was a little mis-cast as a 5 tech. The only way I see Davis going is if we move Kirksey to the middle. I cold see Bryant going. I definitely don't see all four of those guys going. That's a lot to lose.

lol well that would make it tough.

I was lucky enough to be at the game week 2... Holmes was clearly the most talented edge rusher we had at the time. Ogbah picked it up a lot by the end of the year, but I still think Holmes is better than Orchard.

Forgive me if I'm mega outdated here, but has anything been said or made known regarding Desmond Bryant?

We currently have ten draft picks, with more on the way when compensatory picks are awarded. We will probably sign several free agents.

Someone has to go. We can't keep everyone on the roster. Orchard and Cooper we drafted by Farmer and Pettine. Davis will be on the field for 20% of the plays (at best).

I don't know I think there's at least 12-15 spots on this team we could get better at right now without adding four more.

He's also a physical freak of nature.

He's the kinda guy, along with Powell, that if we got good, and he was a key contributor, people would look back and say "Why did [INSERT CRAPPY TEAM HERE] cut him?"

You know, like everyone does with our former players.

I don't know what this means.

I think he means without adding four more roster holes? Meaning those four aren't among the bottom 12-15 players on the roster.

out of those four I think Orchard and Cooper stay with us.

I'd like a guy there who can penetrate and get in the backfield just a little more then Shelton does. A guy who can split the double teams. Just my personal preference. Some guys like the guy to eat up blockers.

Bryant was our best DL in 2015 and came to us after playing 3T in a 43 defense.

IDKY, folks want to kick him to the curb for?

I don't see Bryant being cut..I mean, maybe. But, imagine our DLine looking like this: Garrett, Bryant, Shelton, Ogbah OR replace Garrett with Allen?

I do, however, see Davis and Orchard being cut. Maybe Cooper too. Davis, seems the odd man out in many respects. He was brought in to be a leader but, Kirksey quickly overtook him and now with Collins signing he seems even more pushed away. That said, Imagine our LBs at Davis/Kirksey/Collins. Not a bad front 7 if you take into account the four above. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if we did cut him. What was the contract we signed him on?

I don't think anybody want to kick him to the curb. I just expect it to happen. He is older, has one year left on his contract, is coming off a major injury, and we can cut him with little penalty. Also, playing Bryant takes valuable snaps away from our young players who need reps.

I'm probably in the minority.... but I kinda like Allen over Garrett.

Put Allen and Shelton inside with Ogbah outside with Bryant, Orchard, or Nassib I think that is quite formidable. I still think that's a winning formula to get to the quarterback.

Davis has one year remaining. I think he, Collins and Kirksey could be wonderful.

Haden and Taylor corners...

We will need a safety. I like Tony Jefferson in FA. Or we will draft one. The more I think about it the more I believe Poyer won't be re-signed. Reynolds is a nice player, I like him. But signing Powell means someone will be cut, no?

We will most likely draft a CB at some point as well.

Despite the crappy season, last year seems valuable in finding some key pieces to build upon. Our future is bright. Brighter than it's ever been.


...

J/C ....

Orchard sounds like a better fit as a 4-3 DE, then as a 3-4 OLB.

Here is his scouting report, from CBS. He sounds like he has tools that our new DC can use ..... maybe situationally .... but useful in the right scheme. If we can get a lead, he could be one of those guys who comes in later in the game, when the OL is wearing down a bit and pass blocking on every play ...and just wreaks havoc with his quickness. He's probably not a guy you want to play when the other team is running the ball on every down, trying to run clock.

Nate Orchard, DE, Utah, NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1825042/nate-orchard

PLAYER OVERVIEW

A high school wide receiver, Orchard (full name is Napaa Lilo Fakahafua Orchard) committed to Utah early in the process and moved full-time to defense in 2011 as a true freshman reserve for the Utes.
He became the starting left defensive end in 2012 as a sophomore and finished among the team leaders in tackles for loss (9.5), sacks (3.0) and forced fumbles (3), earning All-Pac 12 Honorable Mention honors. Orchard started 12 games at left defensive end in 2013 as a junior, recording 9.0 tackles for loss and 3.5 sacks, but had his best season in 2014 as a senior defensive end and linebacker.

He finished second in the FBS in sacks (18.5), first on the team in tackles for loss (21.0) and second in total tackles (84), earning First Team All-America and All-Pac 12 honors and winning the Ted Hendricks and Morris Awards. He went by Nate Fakahafua his first two seasons at Utah before taking his guardians' last name in 2013 (raised by guardian parents, has a relationship with his mother).

Orchard has natural flexibility to bend the edge and finds ways to slip blocks, but struggles to get much of a push, lacking a clear power element to his game to force the issue or overwhelm blockers. He might be ideally suited as a "Wide-9" defensive end at the next level, fitting best as a hand-on-the-ground 4-3 pass rusher.

STRENGTHS WEAKNESSES

STRENGTHS: Quick first step with long strides to accelerate well, routinely the first Utah lineman off the ball. Natural bend around the edge with closing burst to finish with purpose. High effort player and doesn't give up on plays, showing excellent pursuit from snap-to-snap. Subtle rush movements to set up moves, finding ways to get to the quarterback. Active and rangy for the position.
Always alert with proper diagnose skills to read and react with timing and trust in what he sees. Good awareness vs. the run and tougher than he looks. Improved hand use as a senior to work off blocks, keeping himself clean with good length for the position. Works his tail off and highly competitive, giving consistent effort each snap and through the whistle. Wants to be the best and expects a lot out of himself. Defensive leader with excellent physical and mental toughness (wore the "C" proudly on his Utah jersey). Experienced at left and right defensive end and as the "STUD" linebacker for the Utes, lining up in both two and three point stances.

Mature lifestyle with a wife (Maegan) and infant daughter (Katherine Mae). Highly productive senior season, setting a school record with 18.5 sacks. Leaves Utah tied for third in school history in career sacks (25.0), second in career tackles for loss (38.5) and tied for second in career forced fumbles (8).

WEAKNESSES: Leaner-than-ideal frame and lacks muscle definition wanted at the position. Upper and lower body strength need developed to better hold his ground, often losing balance once blockers initiate contact. Struggles to generate power at the point of attack and needs to better convert his speed into strength.

Lacks the natural momentum to bull rush or put blockers on their heels. Needs to load more ammo into his hands to better punch at the contact point. Reads the run well, but lacks the consistent power to make stops. Average athletically with ordinary redirection skills and functional burst. Will struggle to collect himself and break down in space at times, even with a clear path to the quarterback.

Has some experience dropping into coverage, but doesn't look comfortable doing so with wild footwork and spatial awareness that needs refined the farther he gets from the ball.

COMPARES TO: Rob Ninkovich, New England Patriots - Although they have their struggles vs. the run, both Ninkovich and Orchard use savvy pass rush ability and a nonstop motor to be effective.

I wouldn't be surprised to see any of tge guys cut but it's going to come down to the wire. NOT bad considering were normally deciding which of the udfa will be cut.

I do watch film. It took me awhile to find it but he only had 2 tackles for loss last year, only 4 his rookie year, and only 24 in three years at Washington. That doesn't scream someone who can penetrate. For comparison BRIEAN BODDY-CALHOUN had 2 also.

I don't think we have seen what Nate can really do. First off he was injured most of last year and he had O'Neill here his first year who probably didn't know what to do with him ( for that matter no one else either). As someone said he would probably be better in a 4-3 anyway. I feel confident GW will get the most out of not only him but the rest of our D.

Then we agree, that's the position he played in college at Wisconsin. A wide 9 technique. I'll also add he racked up 21 TFL and 18.5 sacks his senior year playing RDE. It's his natural position.

Utah? Did he really line up wide 9? Or did he just play defensive end?

DLine
92 Bryant, Desmond DL 6-6 310 31 9 Harvard
93 Coley, Trevon DL 6-1 310 22 1 Florida Atlantic
96 Cooper, Xavier DL 6-4 300 25 3 Washington State
91 Holmes, Tyrone DL 6-2 253 23 2 Montana
70 Lawrence-Stample, Nile DL 6-1 320 24 1 Florida State
98 Meder, Jamie DL 6-3 308 25 3 Ashland
94 Nassib, Carl DL 6-7 275 23 2 Penn State
99 Paea, Stephen DL 6-1 300 28 7 Oregon State
55 Shelton, Danny DL 6-2 335 23 3 Washington
97 Wynn, Dylan DL 6-2 283 23 2 Oregon State
90 Ogbah, Emmanuel DL/LB 6-4 275 23 2 Oklahoma State
97 Wright, Gabe DT 6-2 284 24 3 Auburn

LBers
54 Alexander, Dominique LB 6-0 235 21 2 Oklahoma
52 Burgess, James LB 6-0 233 22 1 Louisville
59 Carder, Tank LB 6-2 235 28 6 Texas Christian
51 Collins Sr., Jamie LB 6-3 250 27 5 Southern Mississippi
56 Davis, Demario LB 6-2 248 28 6 Arkansas State
57 Johnson, Cam LB 6-4 268 26 4 Virginia
58 Kirksey, Christian LB 6-2 235 24 4 Iowa
44 Orchard, Nate LB 6-4 255 24 3 Utah
53 Schobert, Joe LB 6-1 245 23 2 Wisconsin

On the Dline side, I figure we cut:
Gabe Wright- Was a PS pick up. Skills vs competition ain’t there.
Jamie Meder- All effort guy but doesn’t have the passrush skills we need as a 4-3 DT
Dylan Wynn- Who?
Nile Lawrence-Stample- Was an FA pickup. He’s more of a 3-4 NT
Stephen Paea- He’s a FA. We likely don’t even take a run at him.
Trevon Coley- Once again, who?

This leaves:
92 Bryant, Desmond DL 6-6 310 31 9 Harvard
96 Cooper, Xavier DL 6-4 300 25 3 Washington State
91 Holmes, Tyrone DL 6-2 253 23 2 Montana
94 Nassib, Carl DL 6-7 275 23 2 Penn State
55 Shelton, Danny DL 6-2 335 23 3 Washington
90 Ogbah, Emmanuel DL/LB 6-4 275 23 2 Oklahoma State

On the LB side, I figure we cut:
Demario Davis- I don’t think he’s got the speed to play MLB in a 4-3
James Burgess- Who?
Cam Johnson- Maybe they try him at DE but I think he’s just shown the door.

Nate Orchard is not cut, but they move him back to his natural position at DE.

This leaves:
54 Alexander, Dominique LB 6-0 235 21 2 Oklahoma
59 Carder, Tank LB 6-2 235 28 6 Texas Christian
51 Collins Sr., Jamie LB 6-3 250 27 5 Southern Mississippi
58 Kirksey, Christian LB 6-2 235 24 4 Iowa
53 Schobert, Joe LB 6-1 245 23 2 Wisconsin

So pre-draft and FA, our front seven depth goes:
DE Ogbah/Holmes
DT Shelton
DT Bryant/Cooper
DE Nassib/Orchard
OLB Collins/Carder
MLB Kirksey
OLB Schobert/Alexander

Guys who are on the bubble for being replaced I’d say would be Holmes, Orchard and Cooper on the DL and Alexander and Schobert for LBs.
Shelton isn’t the most natural fit in a 4-3 but he’s shown enough improvement to be given the chance.

IMO I'd have to think that Carder is closer to the bubble than before. For the last 2 preseasons we heard about how much improved his pass rush was, but come the regular season we didn't see much of him out there.

I did like what we saw out of Cam Johnson last season though.

If nothing else a lot of these decisions are going to be very very interesting.

Carder shows up on special teams big time. One must factor that into the equation.

Wow, really. I bring up valid points to my argument and that's what you say? I don't understand.

And It's not whatever I say they were actual stats so It's not what I'm saying It's what the stats are saying. Sorry.

Not all the time but yes. And I think I said Wisconsin, I meant Utah. Here's an article that mentions it.

http://buffalofambase.org/2015/04/16/201...e-nate-orchard/

Tabber
I find it insulting you don't want to be insulting

Btw my son hit a 370 yard drive the other week . He still attributes the success to your pointers. And I find that insulting I am now getting beat by an 19 year old

On the LB side, I figure we cut:
Demario Davis- I don’t think he’s got the speed to play MLB in a 4-3
James Burgess- Who?
Cam Johnson- Maybe they try him at DE but I think he’s just shown the door.

Nate Orchard is not cut, but they move him back to his natural position at DE.

This leaves:
54 Alexander, Dominique LB 6-0 235 21 2 Oklahoma
59 Carder, Tank LB 6-2 235 28 6 Texas Christian
51 Collins Sr., Jamie LB 6-3 250 27 5 Southern Mississippi
58 Kirksey, Christian LB 6-2 235 24 4 Iowa
53 Schobert, Joe LB 6-1 245 23 2 Wisconsin

So pre-draft and FA, our front seven depth goes:
DE Ogbah/Holmes
DT Shelton
DT Bryant/Cooper
DE Nassib/Orchard
OLB Collins/Carder
MLB Kirksey
OLB Schobert/Alexander

Guys who are on the bubble for being replaced I’d say would be Holmes, Orchard and Cooper on the DL and Alexander and Schobert for LBs.
Shelton isn’t the most natural fit in a 4-3 but he’s shown enough improvement to be given the chance.


I agree with pretty much all of this, I could see Davis sticking for another year. While we draft his replacement either this draft or next. I don't mind Kirksey at MLB but I think he could be the perfect weak side LB.

Shobert isn't going anywhere ...

You can say whatever you want as your fact and opinion you're not gonna insult me. I got big boy pants. Frustrate me maybe but that's fine.

As for Shelton, I've watched quite a bit of tape and just don't see him penetrating, unless you're watching different tape or have different definition of penetrating. I see him get on the shoulders of guys and get a yard or two into the backfield but not splitting guys and exploding 3-5 yards into thebackfield.