DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Garoppolo Part Four

*LOL* ... thanks a bunch ... your pretty optomistic there bro ...

Man, this^ is what I keep coming back to but for as much as I've swished it around in my head, I can't come up with any possible motive/incentive other than "good faith" for JimmyG's side to want to do this. I mean, if we do make the trade it's not like he has any say about it.

The way I see it, whether it's a package of 2nd rd picks or we use a 1st rounder, we'll be using draft capital that is meant for players you intend to be starters for you for several years. Considering what it'll cost us, that should be how the FO views him.

I'm thinking that as soon as the trade happens, we ought to immediately be making moves to get him to sign a legit 4-5 yr contract. IMO you don't spend (likely) multiple 1st and 2nd round picks for a "show me" year, or put yourself in a position where you get a good/great year from him and then he bolts.

In full disclosure I don't know have enough of an opinion on JimmyG to say whether or not he deserves a contract out of the gate. I just think our plans, intentions, and expectations should be commensurate with the cost to get him here.

JG draft grade 5.8 http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/jimmy-garoppolo?id=2543801

Watson draft grade 6.3

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/deshaun-watson?id=2558063

Honestly, there are no questions about Deshaun atleticism, leadership and production.

I don't see how a QB that produced what he produced can be accused of field vision and decison making....

IMHO, he is a proven Ball Player, so if no personal issued are there, he is one good prospect, much better than Marcus Mariota for instance, or Geoff/Wentz and miles ahead of Jimmy.

We'll have a contract in place with him before we make the trade ... no team is going to give up what its going to take to sign him w/o having the contract in place .... NO TEAM ... they'd be fired if they didn't ...

And I could care less what the rules say .... there broken al the time ... there's no way a contract is not in place before the trade ... NO WAY ...

I don't think this is necessarily true...."there's no way a contract is not in place". I mean, the team traded for Jamie Collins w/o a contract around Halloween. So there is precedence already for this not necessarily being the case. I certainly agree that the idea is to keep JG long-term if he's traded for, but I think both the team AND the agent would be hesitant to commit to a deal at this stage in the game.

Because for the Browns....you just saw what happened to Denver with Osweiler. They got hosed and saw more games/performance out of Osweiler. Hell, now Denver is rumored to be in on JG. Unless the team gets a significantly cheaper contract with several ways to get out of it, then yeah maybe. But I don't see the JG camp doing that. Furthermore, if a contract is reached, my guess is the deal to trade for him w/ NE increases. At least Cleveland can say right now, we can't offer that much (whatever that much is) because we don't have a long-term commitment established. We're taking a gamble not being able to keep him, much like Jamie Collins.

And if I'm in the JG camp, signing a long-term deal now may not be in the best interest for him. I mean, based on many people's assumptions, JG is ready to take the next step. Why would JG want to ink a long-term deal now if they feel the same way? If you play well in 2017, your value skyrockets. Is it a risk? Sure...he could flame out and be a complete dud, but I rarely see agents/players going the safe route...especially with all the hype around JG.

I don't think a deal would be inked but the Browns need to assume, if trading for him, that they'll have to allocate significant $$ at some point. You're not making this trade with out the contract in mind and potentially how much you'll need to fork over to keep him long term.

This never happens. Not only that, but no one knows what to pay the guy.

I agree with Diam. The Pats will resign him with the full knowledge of all parties that he will be subsequently traded. To which team, we don't know as yet...

I don't think the Collins trade is a very good comparison. We didn't have to give up a 1st or 2nd round for him so to lose him because we didn't get a contract done wouldn't have felt good, but it wouldn't be nearly as hurtful.

So some team .. any team ... is going to risk a top 35 pick for someone they may only have for 1 year ...

OK ... I certainly can't compete with logic like that ...

Jimmy's agent and the team will have a deal place before a trade is made ..

GAURANTEED ... 100% .... take it to the bank ... whatever cliche u want to use ...

Possibly, but it's more likely two years, because if he plays well enough to extend a serious, long-term contract to, you're most likely franchise tagging him if you cannot reach an agreement. And look at K. Cousins...they might franchise tag him twice.

I also wouldn't be surprised if it's not a "JG for (insert one pick # here)" but something more-- perhaps a swap of picks including one of NEs, a pick that's value could escalate based on performance, or just like Collins, a pick that is determined by whether JG stays or not.

I definitely think teams would be willing to give up a 2nd Rounder for JG w/o a contract extension. His value is undetermined. I'm not comfortable with it, but in a QB starved league and many teams looking for one, I think it's a very real possibility.

The pats will pick their partner then give Jimmy's agent permission to talk with said team to work the deal out ...

NO TEAM is going to give up a top 40 pick for a guy who they would possibly only have for one year .. NO WAY ...

And Collins situation isn't even remotely close to the same ... other than it was a trade .. NOTHING IS SIMILIAR ... its mind boggling to me anyone would even bring that up ..

IF we signed him we gave up a 4th ... if we didn't they got the conditional 3rd we would have gotten for losing him so we would have given up nothing ... so the trade boiled down to this ...

A 4th for Collins if we signed him LONG TERM ...

We rented him for half a year and gave NE the conditional 3rd we received for him ...

Thats not even remotely close to what is going to happen with Jimmy ... not even close ...

All I can say to that is i would LOVE to do business with U ... *LOL* ...

We'll see ...

You are mistaking what I would do vs. what I think will happen.

Give me one example of this ever happening.

This is little off.
This years franchise tag for a QB is $21.5 mil
It will be more like $24-$25 mil next year when we first franchise Jimmy.
The second year would be 120% of that or $29-$30 mil

So about 3 years $53- $55 mil

Still that isn't too bad but contract negotiation after that second tag would be horrendous. It would be tter to lock him up as part of the trade because it goes sky high the longer you wait.

My brother does that all the time in Madden.

Which is why I constantly have to clear his cap penalties.

Because he, like apparently a lot of people, don't understand how signing bonuses work.

At this moment, I don't have an example readily available. Does happen in the NBA though. I believe this to be a good "process" for all parties...

You can't compare NBA and NFL contracts/trades.

Completely different system.

If NE see fend him to a big deal, and then traded him, they would eat all of his garenteed money.

Hence why that never happens.

Once the trade is agreed to, Jimmy and his new team can work out a deal.

You don't have an example because it does not happen.

I try to understand the groundswell of thought that vaults Garopollo into being considered by some as the best QB available via trade/FA/draft and its hard for me to understand.

I like his skillset but the best thing he has going for him via perception/hype is his limited sample size. He didn't play enough to have bad tape or cast doubt.

The long and short of it to me is that you are gonna have to give up draft capital plus money.

That seems like a lot to pay given the sample.

Weighing it evenly going after Tyrod only cost money not picks.
With the currently slotting drafting a QB isn't expensive.

Not to mention that 2 of the 4 QBs taken before JG have proven to be over-reaches, Manziel and Bortles. JFF was an absolute bust, and Bortles has played well at times but never justified being taken over TB and DC.

Jax coulda had Khalil Mack and Jimmy G in the 2nd.

Ignoring the fact that we coulda had Mack, Kelvin Benjamin, and Derek Carr.

I'm ganna go be sad now.

I wanted all three of them although i wanted Jimmy G. more than carr.

You don't have just a few games. You have his college play time too. you also have lots of preseason games. The point is that you have enough to see that his ability to play great in college CAN translate to the NFL.

Tyrod isn't even good enough to keep his spot on the Bills but that somehow makes him good enough for the Browns? He is completely unreliable. Sure he has some nice games but he is too untrustworthy. Do you really think if he was a Franchise QB that the Bills would let him go with such a bad QB shortage going on right now?

You don't nickel and dime for a franchise QB. They are in HIGH demand so if you want one you're going to have to pay for one unless you're lucky in the draft. The BROWNS are NOT lucky in the draft ^^

If u even think that can happen ... I'd LOVE to do business with U ... *L* ....

CFR - u want me to find u an example ... *LOL* ... there's a reason why I ALMOST NEVER reply to U ... and this points out exactly why ...

If u think ANY TEAM in the NFL is going to give up a top 40 pick on a player they will either lose or have to franchise the next year ... U need to visit with reality ....

Enjoy that bubble U live in where everyone follows the rules all the time .... *LOL* ...

WOW ....

This would be a good time for Mr. Gumps favorite saying .... *LOL* ...

Problem with that is .. .anyone with a clue ... knows Taylor ain't the answer ... he'd be better off with a sample size like JG's than his ... he's simply not a good NFL QB ... with Jimmy ... there's still the hope he is ....

I'd say Taylor can be a good QB.

Maybe not great.

I think Jimmy has the potential to be great.

But if we go the Taylor route, I'm totally ok with it.

It's not a top 40 pick (also top forty seems very arbitrary, why did you pick that number), but last year the Cardinals gave up their second round pick (and Jonathan Cooper) for Chandler Jones (who they are about to franchise).

I agree with you in general. A team should have a plan in place to sign a player to an extension after they trade for him (like the Chiefs did with Matt Cassel, or the Bears did with Jay Cutler, or like the Eagles did with Sam Bradford), but to say that the extension should be in place before the trade is made is unrealistic.

Both are better options than drafting one the available QBs high.

Mike Tanier
NFL National Lead Writer
February 14, 2017
Before falling head over heels for Jimmy Garoppolo as your favorite team's savior, listen to the lovelorn wisdom learned from decades of quarterback heartbreaks.

• Don't lose your heart to a quarterback who only played a couple of good games. Garoppolo has attempted 94 passes in three seasons. That's the quarterback evaluation equivalent of three emails and a lunch date. Go gaga over a strong arm and a handful of big wins and you might hitch your future to Brock Osweiler. Or Matt Flynn. Or Rob Johnson. Or Scott Mitchell. Or countless others.

• Don't let the Patriots snooker you. They just want to sweet-talk you out of your draft picks. They offer shiny trinkets that look great inside their system but often fall apart when you take them home.

Trading for one of Tom Brady's backups offers the worst of both worlds. Yet every few years, we play matchmaker between Brady Buddies and desperate teams, estimating how many high draft picks would make a worthy dowry.

Some teams even took the plunge. The results are the stuff of a decade's worth of advice columns. Don't lose your heart to Matt Cassel. Don't get carried away about Brian Hoyer. Why buy the Ryan Mallett when you can get the Tom Savage for free?

So here we are, watching the Browns and other teams ogle Garoppolo from across the NFL's seediest singles joint, the Offseason Trade Rumor.

This time, it's different.

This time, the quarterback is worth it.

This time, the match actually makes sense.

Garoppolo was a legitimate prospect three years ago, not some Patriots creation like Cassel or Hoyer, or an arm-with-issues like Mallett. Garoppolo climbed the Shrine Game/Senior Bowl ladder after shining at Eastern Illinois, impressing at every stop with his quick release, strong arm, athleticism and between-the-ears attributes.

So Garoppolo's merits as an NFL starter don't rest on circular Patriots reasoning. You know how that goes: He's good because the Patriots made him good! He absorbed greatness from Tom Brady via osmosis! He'll bring Patriots-ness to our lowly locker room!

Garoppolo's 2016 game film, scant though it is, suggests the Patriots truly spent three years honing his tools. "He learned from great coaches" is a lousy argument when it's the only argument, but Garoppolo answered just about every question a young quarterback can answer in a game-and-a-half.

His 63 attempts this past season took place in high-leverage situations. Garoppolo wasn't beating up on last-place teams or padding his stats in the fourth quarters of blowouts. He faced a pair of good defenses, one on national television, for a Super Bowl contender. So check the box next to "handles pressure well."

New England trailed in the fourth quarter of the season opener after the Cardinals scored a touchdown with 9:46 remaining. Garoppolo went 5-of-7 for 62 yards on the ensuing drive to set up a field goal that gave the Patriots a lead, making several plays under duress against the Cardinals pass rush. While a smart offensive coordinator can customize a game plan to "hide" a limited quarterback in many situations, trailing a good opponent in the fourth quarter is not one of those situations.

On third downs, Garoppolo was exceptional in his two starts: 14-of-19 for 195 yards, two touchdowns and 12 first downs. On third down and longer than seven, he was 9-of-12 with a touchdown and seven first downs.

Again, a so-so prospect with something to hide would be throwing swing passes or handing off on many of those 3rd-and-longs. The Patriots trusted Garoppolo to fire the ball past the sticks, and he delivered.

Load the game film, and Garoppolo's performance becomes even more impressive. Garoppolo isn't just a guy whose numbers look good. He makes adjustments before the snap. He "holds the safety" with his eyes. He consistently finds his second or third receiving option. He resets his feet quickly when changing receiving targets. He steps up in the pocket to buy time.

This touchdown to Martellus Bennett from Week 2 sums it up. Garoppolo reads the defense, checks down from his first target, resets and snaps off a perfect throw, all in a third-down situation when a lesser prospect would be ordered to throw into the flat and settle for a field goal.

Yes, it's just one throw, but there are others like it, and there are much fewer overthrows or bad decisions on Garoppolo's brief resume. For two weeks, Garoppolo looked like a high-round quarterback prospect in the latter stages of his development process. There is a good chance that's precisely what he is.

Now, what would you offer for a quarterback like that? A second-round pick? Sure. And you'll date Jennifer Lawrence if she moves in next door and asks you to show her around the neighborhood.

The better question is: What would you have to offer a team that would happily keep its proven, low-cost (Garoppolo is due to make just over $1 million next season) backup on the payroll for one more year to get a quarterback like that?

The 12th overall pick, the second of the Browns' two first-round draft picks, would get the Patriots' attention.

The Browns are in a unique situation. Their roster is terrible, but they are teeming with extra draft picks. They possess the first pick in the draft, but there is no Andrew Luck, or even a Jameis Winston, in this year's class. They also have such a long history of half measures and bad decisions at quarterback that any move they make will look like the wrong move.

The Browns could use a pre-developed quarterback who is ready to assume a leadership role on a young offense. Garoppolo looks like a sound fit in Hue Jackson's system, which helped turn Andy Dalton into an efficient, reliable quarterback. And unlike the other quarterback-needy teams, the Browns can give the Patriots something they want—the Patriots haven't selected in the top half of the draft since 2008 and would welcome a crack at a blue-chip rookie—without mortgaging their future at other positions. If they have to throw in some extra picks, the Browns have them to spare.

Imagine the Browns coming away from the draft with Myles Garrett and Garoppolo. Sounds much better than Garrett and whoever is left in the quarterback draft bin after the 49ers, Bears and whoever pick through it, doesn't it?

Yes, there's risk in placing too much stock in a few dozen NFL passes. Draft Mitch Trubisky or Deshaun Watson, though, and you place stock in zero NFL passes. And how much did those three minutes of meaningless action in Week 17 really tell us about Tony Romo's vertebrae? Acquiring a quarterback, like falling in love, is all about taking a big risk for a big reward.

The conventional wisdom we began with still holds true, most of the time. But sometimes, making the "safe" move—dipping into the rookie pool, signing a veteran to hold down the fort—only saves a team from criticism.

Garoppolo looks as much like The One as Trubisky, Watson or any other rookie, and he comes at roughly the same price. He provides many of the benefits of a veteran without the age or baggage.

The Browns and Patriots have each other's number. They bonded over Jamie Collins. Maybe they should get serious.

Don't be afraid to fall in love with the idea of Garoppolo as a franchise quarterback. Scary though it may be, it's important to keep both an open mind and an open heart.



Stats courtesy of Pro Football Reference. Mike Tanier covers the NFL for Bleacher Report. Follow him on Twitter: @MikeTanier.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/26927...ound-draft-pick


thought this a a good read and thought to share with you fellas.

You kinda answered, but you really didn't address the points I asked you to. But, at least you replied, which is more than most of the guys who make insane claims.

Here is my take on the comparison between the two QBs. [Btw---this is called "talking football" for all those who say I don't.] These are in no particular order of importance:

Arm strength: Jimmy G has the better arm. Watson's could improve a bit if his mechanics are cleaned up, but his arm is not as good as Jimmy's.

Leadership: Both are outstanding.

Character: Both are quality guys. I live in SC and I can tell you that from everything I have heard, Watson is a class dude.

Mechanics: Not even close, Jimmy's are far superior.

Decision making: Again, not close, Jimmy makes way better decisions.

Pocket presence: Both are pretty good in this area, w/a slight edge to Jimmy.

Scrambling: Watson is the superior runner.

Athleticism: Both are good athletes, but Watson is better.

Decision making: Jimmy will force the ball into tight windows more than I would like, but Watson makes some horrible decisions that boggle the mind. Edge to Jimmy.

Release time: Jimmy's is way faster.

Big Game Experience: Not even close. Watson wins.

Reading defenses and coverages: Not even close. Jimmy is far superior.

Accuracy: Jimmy is way more accurate.

I truthfully have no idea how anyone who knows the game can think that Watson is the superior qb.

I would love to come out of the first round with Garret and Jimmy G. To me it seems like the smartest thing to do.

I just hope they don't screw up the first pick.

What did Eric mangini say today, I agree with. Belichck probably wouldn't get rid of a franchise qb, buyer beware.

I say stay the course, a couple 2's at max for jg

Vers, I have problems with some of your assessments, which I think are impressions more than qualities.

I don't think JG boddy of work with NE is that great to radically change the impression on the player.

But all anda all I'm against dowgrading other players just because we like a player in particular (not saying you are doing that)

Deshaun is a Ball Player and IMHO worth of a high pick. Has a prospect he's similar to Marcus Mariota with the plus of having played two championship games and won one, both against Alabama D.


I would say he's on the same level of Vince Young and RGIII but without issues.

I think we should draft Miles with the #1 pick, and then if Deshaun and Trubiski are not there at the #12 (which they most probably wont) we should trade for Jimmy G., or improve our team this year and draft/trade another QB next year.

No doubt.

Beyond all the preseason games and the couple of starts, Polo has gone through 3 seasons of prepping for games, game day experience, off season programs etc.

That right there puts him way ahead of the learning curve.

I lmao at anyone that brings up the BS of watch out for a NE backup QB. Or this is Matt Flynn all over again. You gotta look at the individuals.

And almost ALL of those guys aren't in the same stratosphere as Garoppolo talent wise. That's if you have a clue what you're looking at.

I actually took the time to research Jimmy G while he was in college. It's my "impression" that many of the people who are knocking Jimmy G are people who haven't taken that time and are making baseless claims.

As to the rest of your post, let's just leave it at we disagree on our evaluations of the two players.

I keep going back to this line of thinking:

If JG were coming out in THIS draft and based solely on his college play, where would he rank in this QB class?

I think he'd easily be the #1 QB prospect.

Based solely on his college play?

Strengths: Quick release, consistent throwing motion, good arm talent, some adlib ability, good decision maker at his level of play

Negatives: Spread system similar to Baylor, level of competition, unsure how he handles pressure due to being well protected, (at the time) unsure about his ability to drive the ball with velocity, average size

I haven't completely finished evaluating this QB draft class but he wouldn't be the top QB based solely on his college film BUT he would be ranked higher based on who he is now.