DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Garoppolo Part Five

NE teammates.

Collins is known for being a bit blunt so if he told the front office good things about Jimmy it might confirm some things for them but I don't think it would change anything. They have enough video to understand his skill set. EVERYONE knows he is a high character and classy guy. Team mates always love him.

The only QUestion is if Hue thinks Jimmy is worth the cost of getting him and/or if Bill actually wants to trade him. I can see Bill keeping since I would. You franchise him for one year after his rookie deal is up and then Tom is 41 years old. At that point you just let Tom go and move on with Jimmy after signing him to a long term deal. Again that what I would do. I have no idea what Bill is thinking.

I mean Tom is GREAT but Jacoby isn't. There is no guarantee Bill will find another great talent for QB. He has to know that. Staying with Tom for more than 2 more years and letting Jimmy G. go or keep him will have a lot to say about whether he was a great coach or one who just got lucky enough to fall unto a great QB by accident. Walsh had a steve young and he made the tough call to let Joe go. Does Bill have the stones to do the same in 2 years or will he sell out now to get what he can while Brady has another few years left.

Bill has LOTS of tough choices. I kind of feel he is stuck in a catch 22. It will be interesting to see what he does since I admire him quite a bit.

Whatever BB does it will, in his opinion, be the best thing for the team regardless of who he pisses off

As I've said, I suspect the whole reason Garoppolo is even being discussed is Bill would be willing to trade him for Garrett. No Garrett, no trade.

http://www.mockdraftable.com/player/4459/

Well at least he's similar to himself. That's helpful.

If history has shown anything, there's only two ways to get a franchise QB:

1) You draft a CONSENSUS #1 or #2 guy. As in you don't over-draft a guy #1 just because he's the best available.

2) You draft a QB later and plug him into a team that already has all the pieces (o-line, receiving targets or run game, defense) ... or you sit him on the bench UNTIL your team has all the other pieces ready for him.


You do NOT draft a non-number 1 and plug him into a piecework team and expect to get results. It doesn't happen. Pretty much every star QB from the last 10 years follows one of those two rules. Anything else, and you get Jay Cutlers, Christian Ponders, Blaine Gabberts, and pretty much everyone we've drafted at QB.

What was that supposed to prove? Seriously?

I think you have listed the 2 usual ways. There are examples of QBs acquired in trade that have become franchise QBs; Farve, Bledsoe, and Rivers come quickly to mind.

That's why I don't want to draft any of this year's QBs in the first round.

We are now on Pt 5 of this subject...I have followed some of the past threads but, forgive me if I missed this and it was already discussed.

Do we think Shanahan will use his #2 for JG? Or, do we think he will go hard for Cousins?

Shanno needs a gunslinger for that offense to move and he clearly doesn't have it on the current roster. Is he that desperate he will he convince the SF brass to offer the 2? IF so, does that force us to trump SF with our 1 to score JG?

For the record, I do not think JG is worth the 1 nor do I want it to go this way. But, I am in agreement with Vers that he brings more to the table than one of the current draft rooks and is less of a gamble. If Hue believes he is potentially "the franchise guy"....do we use the #1 and get him by any means necessary? OR, do we go with an offer for Tyrod and not trade?

I don't think the #1 pick should be for JG. I am his biggest fan and I don't even think that because Garrett and Allen are too special to pass up IMHO. I would use the 12 for him in a heartbeat though.

Do I think 49ers might give the #2 for JG? Yes, actually I think they just might. Kyle is one of those very arrogant people who would love to have JG and rub it in the face of Haslem that he should have listened to him. That and they really need a QB and JG is simply the best option available. I'm sure they want cousins more but I seriously doubt Cousins ever enters the market realistically speaking. I mean hell people will snatch him even if they do lose first round picks.

OK .... Pluto seems to think that Belichick could be excited by a future pick for Garappolo. He thinks that Belichick could be interested in future picks, maybe even more than picks in this draft.

I got to thinking ...... maybe offer our lower 2nd round pick, along with a 5th and a 2nd next year that could become a 1st and/or 4th, based on how Garappolo does. (# of starts, passing yards, TDs, INTs, wins)

Belichick does love those 2nd rounders.

Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' Terrelle Pryor, Jimmy Garoppolo, Tyrod Taylor -- Terry Pluto (photos) | cleveland.com
http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf...art_river_index

Of course, with this young of a team that needs talent at multiple positions...I like the idea of using a future pick as long as we don't overstretch on what that pick is. If we are potentially willing to give the #12 overall pick in a draft where we have two 1st rd picks that is one thing. But, I hope we don't trade our only 1st rd pick next year. Correct me if I am wrong...but, we do have two 2nd rd picks in both '17 and '18. This could get interesting considering how well stocked we are with picks.

If that is the case, and we can give up the later 2nd and keep 33? Yes please.

I'm all for giving a "conditional" pick next year.

Hell, if Jimmy wins us a SB you can have all the picks.

I probably wouldn't survive the night anyways.

Yes, usually because when you trade for a QB, you have a team in place for him and then are looking to just plug in the QB. Also, Rivers was drafted by NY and traded to San Diego in pretty much the same draft week. He sat on the bench learning the system behind Brees before taking over, playing with a Hall of Fame Running Back and becoming his own star. Rivers is pretty much the blue-print for what you should do with a QB that's not a #1 pick.

lol, same week. Same day. Happened at pick number 4 I believe, lol. When the Giants had the pick. This was worked out far in advance.

When whoever used Rivers as their point, I really felt it was a poor choice and a bit of a stretch. Was it a QB that was traded for? Yes.

But how about Alex Smith, who certainly was worth the 2nd round pick that the Chiefs gave up for him (I was frustrated we didn't do just that at the time) or Matt Hasselback

It sounds like he might be available again.

That's what I've heard, and that's an option I'd def consider.

He'll be 33 by the time the season comes around, but I think we could get two years or so out of him. Sounds better than Mike Glennon and prob Tyrod Taylor too.


But I don't like to speculate too much. Why would the Chiefs let a guy like him go? He's had a lot of success (although on very good teams)

Are Cleveland Browns wise to pursue Jimmy Garoppolo?: Bill LIvingston

By Bill Livingston, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Don Meredith, for whose head -- possibly on a platter, but also maybe a pike -- Dallas fans often clamored, said it best.

The most popular man in town is the back-up quarterback.

Until, as is the case more often than not, he plays.

Cleveland Browns fans have been through these things when it was an intramural dispute. At least then the coaching staff got to see the back-up in practice.

Holcomb and Anderson

Kelly Holcomb sustained his chance when he got it with a strong playoff performance in a loss to the Steelers, but then proved to be just good enough to tease, but not fulfill.

Derek Anderson got big numbers against bad teams after Charlie Frye went down the chute, but soon proved the wisdom of former Indians manager Mike Hargrove's comment about his starting lineup: "Regulars are regulars for a reason."

Garoppolo and Brissett

Browns fans now turn their lonely eyes toward Jimmy Garroppolo, the back-up to Tom Brady in New England -- unless coach Bill Belichick decides Jacoby Brissett is the man for the job. The two split the four games in which Brady was suspended.

Garoppolo threw for over 500 yards in his pair of games, Brissett for 400. Even with Belichick's proven ability to find good players throughout the draft, with Garoppolo going in the second round and Brissett in the third, you must wonder: What black magic is this?


Cassel

Matt Cassel directed an 11-5 season filling in for Brady in 2008 after Brady suffered his only serious injury. He was the big catch in free agency, scooped up in Kansas City by Scott Pioli, a Belichick disciple who shared a Browns and Patriots background with the coach.

Somehow, Brownie-ness dominated, not Belichick-tude.

Cassel had four offensive coordinators in his four seasons, put up strong numbers (27/7 TDs/INTs ) just once, and - does this sound similar to the Tim Couch era here?- heard fans cheering for his back-up when he went down with an injury.

The back-up was former Brown Brady Quinn, on whom the cheers were wasted.

Mallett and Hoyer

Ryan Mallett served for three years as Brady's back-up, then got his chance with the Houston Texans.

He had switched colleges (Michigan to Arkansas) to put up better numbers, but still languished until the draft's third round.

Eventually, he lost his starting job to Brian Hoyer and became a mini-Manziel, oversleeping and generally acting as if he didn't care about the career he had professed to treasure.

Hoyer had his own history with Belichick and would make more with the Browns. He could not handle the pressure of the Johnny Manziel mania, though.

Despite a playoff game with the quarterback-deprived Texans that was so bad it was on the verges of Manziel's first start for being really, really bad, Hoyer has the character to get another chance. He is now the next Jay Cutler with the Bears.

The system

The Garoppolo speculation might well be moot, anyway. Brady will be 40 in August. Why would Belichick get rid of either insurance policy with his back-ups?

You can say every case is different, and point to such former back-ups turned stars as Brett Favre, Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers. Brady himself was once Drew Bledsoe's back-up.

Can just any quarterback flourish in the Patriots' system? Is it transferable to a team like the Browns with an offensive line that, except for Joe Thomas, couldn't slow down pass rushers if there were turnstiles in the gaps?
It appears that most back-up quarterbacks made in Foxborough should've stayed in Foxborough.

I didn't know that bad grad school poetry was considered sports journalism today. Seriously, how does someone get paid to give this level analysis?

I can't help wondering if Bill Livingston has ever even watched Garoppolo play a down. I always liked Bill because he can write, but he seems to have reached the stage of just mailing it in. His takes are lazy, imo. Plus, he is recently on the record as saying the Browns should take Watson with the #1 pick.

I said this somewhere else..............Bill Livingston needs to retire.

Saying that Garrapolo is the same player as Matt Cassel, Brian Hoyer, Ryan Mallett, etc... is the same as saying that when Cameron Erving leaves the Browns he will be the same player that the Falcons got in Alex Mack because they both played Center for the Cleveland Browns.

You can tell from his columns that his loves are golf and basketball (college and pro), and next, college football - he writes really well about those things. He has a real lack of feel for the NFL game altogether, imo, and probably should avoid writing about it because his columns on the Browns or the NFL have little to no weight or depth.

Out of his TWO games before he was hurt I'm sure he did. How many plays did you see?

He may have said the same thing about you! Imagine that!

Why Jimmy Garoppolo isn't worth trading a first-round pick

By: Luke Kerr-Dineen

Before we get started, let’s state the obvious: A team will cave. One over-eager General Manager, spurred-on by their desperate head coach, will hand over a first round pick for the 25-year-old backup, for the same reason Sam Bradford commanded one last year. They’ll panic, see Jimmy Garoppolo, and suddenly conclude that he’s the solution to all its problems. Such is the need for great good decent quarterbacks in the NFL right now.

What follows below is not an argument about whether a team will trade a first-round pick for Garoppolo, as Patriots fans undoubtedly want them to. It’s why they shouldn’t.

They miss out on the perks

Drafting a player isn’t as cut-and-dry as it used to be. Teams aren’t simply getting a first pick from the latest crop of talented future stars, they’re getting it at a guaranteed good price.

In 2010, when Bradford commanded a $78 million contract over six years, it made more sense to trade picks. Rather than take an expensive risk on an unknown quarterback, you could take an expensive risk on a semi-known quarterback. One of the unintended consequences of the rookie salary cap (which, ironically, the league’s vets pushed for), is that it became more beneficial to draft young players. Why take a risk on one older player when you can take multiple swings on youngsters for pennies on the dollar?

How does this relate to Garoppolo? Because 2017 will be the last on his rookie deal. Best case scenario is that he looks like the next great quarterback and a team is fine handing him a hefty new deal. But what if he walks, opting instead for a team that’s offering more money? Or what if he bombs out, a la Brock Osweiler? Trading for Jimmy G means a team assumes all these risks, without any of the benefits that come with a first-round pick.

He’s still an unknown

Even still, after his fifth Super Bowl, questions remain over whether Tom Brady is truly the greatest quarterback of all time. Why? Because no matter how undoubtedly great he is (and make no mistake, he is), there’s a nagging question that persists: How much of this greatness is a product of Brady, and how much is down to Bill Belichick’s system?

Each benefits from the other, of course, but nevertheless, Belichick’s system has proven itself self-sustainable. It churned out 10 wins with Matt Cassell, and for three weeks turned Jimmy Garoppolo into one of the best quarterbacks in the league. Third round, not-fully-healthy rookie Jacoby Brissett didn’t even look disastrous in it, and given more time, he’d almost certainly have been even better. That the most brilliant coach in NFL history identifies Garoppolo as talented counts for a lot, but that Garoppolo played well for a handful of games under him is hardly guarantee.

OK, so when you said at the beginning of each of your bullet points "You draft", I can substitute "You acquire" and your point is the same?

j/c:

The thing is that NFL people like Jimmy G and dumb ass reporters don't.

I wonder who y'all trust?

lol, says the guy who spent three 2nd round picks on Brian Robiskie, Mohmmad Massaquoi, and (the best of them all) David Veikune.


Loved things about Mangini as a coach. Although I wish that he'd have played nicely with Kokinis and found a better OC than Brian Daboll. But I dunno about Mangini the Player Personnel guy

We've both been on the board awhile, at least I've seen you between here and the original DawgTalkers since Kellen Winslow Jr's draft and William Green.


But what I thought happened was that Eric Mangini pretty much overruled Kokinis (who he pretty much handpicked), which is why Kokinis resigned. Hadn't Kokinis and Mangini not been talking for awhile before the resignation?

Mangini nor Kokinis have said much that I can remember about what happened. But I always was under the impression that Mangini basically became a Napoleon, and those guys were all picks by him.

I might be wrong because new information might have come out, but from what I remember at the time, this was the word.



I can't remember specific formations and looks by Daboll, but I do know that I wasn't impressed with Daboll. His offenses ranked 32 and 29th. Looking at our offenses those years though, it's true. They were pretty talentless. I just remember being very unimpressed.

I loved Mangini's Special Teams and I liked our defense under Rob Ryan. That and Peyton Hillis kicking butt in 2010.


EDIT: Looking into things, I'm reading that either their breakup had to do with 1) Power struggle issues between Maingini and Kokinis, and his role with the team (what he was hired to do, and the responsibilities he was actually given) and 2) Kokinis had a substance abuse issue (which seemed to be rumored but not proven)

lol, I guess we were around the same time then. I think I was around 2002. William Green's Rookie Year. Lots of people here have been around for quite awhile though (Peen, Diam, Purp, Arch, Vers (I think), oh and someone named DawgMichelle who showed me where this board was when I wrote a post about how depressing BrownsChat was, thank goodness for that poster)


Anyway, sounds like you've got quite the memory on this subject. With all the coaching/regime changes it can be difficult to keep up. But I definitely believe ya. At the time though, I do remember it sounded like Mangini handpicked his guy and then he basically didn't listen to him/overruled him. Like a Magini Coup or something. But most of my information was coming from the Dawgtalkers Message Board, so who knows, coulda been speculation based on rumors and poster's agendas.

So I stand corrected on this subject. Maybe Mangini wasn't the problem. Kokinis never recovered career-wise and he was very well respected before his time here.


As I said, there were things I liked a lot about the guy. Didn't he make guys find their own way home after special teams penalties in a game vs Detroit? Plus, he had Brad Seely. Best of the best. Seely puts Chris "Teflon" Tabor to shame.

I didn't like Brian Daboll though. And I stand by that one. He followed up Chud, who I thought was a good one. Maybe that has something to do with it.

I wanted to hire Brad Seely as HC at one point.

Dudes just good.

I did too

Yeah as really think he does have potential on the team.