DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Garoppolo Part Five

PLEASE STOP the Garoppolo MADNESS!!!!

You got about 2 weeks left of madness mate =) Sit back and enjoy the pain =)

I seen a vision... "Garoppolo Part One Hundred" hahha

lol i hope not! i am kind of burnt out on talking about qbs to be honest ^^

https://twitter.com/PhilAPerry/status/836296161929592833

While quoting the above Tweet, Albert Breer said this:



https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/836296460941553664

Reading through, and then came along this.

He, he...

I'm sure you guys have covered it, but I try to make things simple.

If we pull the trigger on Jimmy we will be vesting the next 6-10 years on him growing into a Playoff Caliber, Super Bowl winning quarterback. He gets the reins. Hue, The Harvard Boys, Joe, Garrett, Coleman, all of their careers are subject to him being able to develop into a Brees, Ryan, Wilson, Rodgers, etc... and not a Dalton, Tannehill, Cutler, etc...

Does he have fire in his gut? A chip on his shoulder?

Is he a winner?

Yes, I wish you would.

Do I think Jimmy has the potential to be a SB winning QB?

Yes.

However, I noticed you lumped Wilson and Ryan in with Brees and Rodgers.

I would not.

I think it is possible to win a SB with the Tannehills and Daltons of the world, (Sup Joe Flacco)

But I think guys like Brees and Rodgers are on a different tier than Wilson and Ryan.

Ryan hasn't won anything yet, and if you actually watch Denver vs Seattle, Wilson was not good that day.

Every QB needs help. But I think with guys like Pryor, Coleman, Joe T, and adding guys like Collins and hopefully Garrett, we are on the right path to giving Jimmy MORE than enough help.

j/c

It's my observation that everyone who is pro-Garoppolo points to the skills and qualities he has demonstrated in what little game tape there is. Those who are anti-Garoppolo point to all the circumstances beyond his control: where he was drafted (how many teams passed on him), how little game tape there is on him (playing behind one of the best QBs ever), and the performance of other QBs who have been in his position.

PRO - his abilities, CON - his circumstances.

He is a born winner who inspires others. We sign Jimmy then a new era in Browns football will begin because for the first time since Kosar we will have a seriously good Franchise QB.

As a side note Jimmy is ready now. He doesn't need to develop for a few more years. He is ready NOW!

Here is an excerpt from an article about Mayock's comments regarding Jimmy G and the Browns draft.

Thanks to these past Mayock rankings (complied during the respective draft seasons) of the top five at each position, we can see where Mayock went wrong in past year. For the purposes of this post, the 2009-2013 drafts were used. That means every player talked about--and the names they were ranked above--have been in the league at least three seasons.

For reference, here are Mayock's 2014, 2015 and current 2016 rankings. We can keep evaluating them as the years go on (including Johnny Manziel over both Derek Carr and Teddy Bridgewater!), but for now, on to the 2009-2013 big blunders.

2009

Mark Sanchez over Matt Stafford: Sanchez was the No. 1 quarterback on Mayock's board in 2009. Eight years later, the former USC star is an Eagles back-up and Stafford already has over 25,000 career yards passing.

Aaron Curry over Clay Matthews: Everyone bought the Curry hype coming out of Wake Forest. That included Mayock and the Seattle Seahawks--the franchise that used the No. 4 overall pick on the linebacker. Meanwhile, Matthews ranked fourth on Mayock's OLB list.

2010

Jermaine Gresham over Rob Gronkowski: The Patriots star had nearly as many touchdowns (11) in 2015 as Gresham had total receptions (18) in Arizona.

2011

Blaine Gabbert over Cam Newton: This is probably the worst one on our list. While Gabbert did seem to have a second life during a stint with the 49ers late in 2015, Newton is the NFL MVP.

Jonathan Baldwin over Randall Cobb: Mayock ranked Baldwin, the big-bodied Pittsburgh star over Cobb's elusiveness. The Packers chose the right receiver, despite the rankings.

Danny Watkins over all but one interior offensive lineman: Outside of Mike Pouncey, Mayock had Watkins ranked over every other guard or center in the entire draft. Philadelphia took the bait no one should have, selecting Watkins in the first round. Five years later, you can make a case that he's one of the worst picks in NFL Draft history.

http://www.nj.com/sports/index.ssf/2016/02/nfl_draft_2016_mike_mayocks_biggest_misses.html

Mike Mayock on QB class intrigue, why Johnny Manziel reminds him of Steve Young

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl...arison/8172865/

So, because someone was wrong before, it means they are wrong now..

Guess we shouldn't draft Garrett OR Allen, as Mayok likes both of them..

They must suck.

Mayok is more reliable in his opinions on defensive backs. There are times you make a solid evaluation and the player just falls apart due to injury or outside factors you have no way of knowing about.

I mean look at Manziel. We knew there were some issues but nobody could ever dream they were as bad as they ended up being. The thing is he had enough talent for some to risk it. I personally didn't want him and was vocal about it before we drafted him because like Paul Brown I believe character is very important in a player and on a team. Still there was no way to know he would self destruct on such an epic level.

LOL........I wonder why he didn't post about all the players Mayock was right on?????

Didn't see any!

tab, I think he has a better take than Vambo, mac, dean, Pastor, etc.

Don't you?

Steve Young has never touched a drop of alcohol, and Johnny Manziel has never touched anything but alcohol.

Look at the FOOTBALL talk from Vers....

I totally agree that if I had a choice of a rookie coming out or Garoppolo at number 12, I'd take the QB with the blistering 6 quarters of NFL work in 3 years - NOT! Look, there is absolutely nothing in Garoppolo's history that proves he's a NFL franchise QB by any stretch of the imagination. You must look at the history of those backups coming out of New England that have failed in the NFL. Huard was Brady's backup for two years and left for KC where he started only 21 games in 5 year's and bombed out. Cassel actually started 15 games in 2008 actually winning 11 of those games. Cassel became the first poster child that "anyone" could succeed in the Belichick offense. He parlayed that season into a 6-year, 62 million dollar deal with the Chiefs. Cassel has been now with 5 teams in 8 years and can clearly be classified as a big bust! Hoyer (OMG the Browns had him) started in New England and after additional stops in Pittsburgh and Arizona landed the starting job in Cleveland. Hoyer lost his starting job to Manziel then moving on to Houston and Chicago. Ryan Mallett was the first to wear the "heir apparent to the Brady empire" title, labeled a steal when drafted by the Pats in the third round. Traded to Houston in 2014, in his first start he was injured and then lost his starting gig to Hoyer in 2015. He was eventually released and ended up as a backup in Baltimore.

Now there's all this stupid hoopla about Garoppolo. How many more teams need to get burnt by NE backups before someone realizes the Pats are playing you for a fool? This guy is worth a first round pick as much as I am and I'm 62. This is a fools trade and only Cleveland would even consider such a stupid move.

With all the Browns cap, draft choices and over paid under performing vets they currently have, the Browns need to make some strategic moves this year and next to finally be a contender.

First, the Browns need to cut McCown (already gone) and RGIII. This would free up over 25 million in cap space this year alone. Just an FYI, RGIII is scheduled to get a $750,000 roster bonus in March, salary of 12 million, and a per game kicker of $750,000 per game for every game he is on the active roster. That makes his total salary potential of over 20 million in 2017, REALLY? Second, the Browns need to package their 2nd round pick and Hayden (11.2 mil in 2017) to the Bears for Jay Cutler. Attitude aside, Cutler still is one of the best passers in the NFL. Give this guy some real weapons and this guy will be the best QB Cleveland has seen in 25 years. Cutler still has 4 years left on his deal and scheduled to make 15 million in 2017 and 16 million in 2018. Hmmm, a 20 million RGIII or a 15 million Cutler?

Third, the Browns must sign free agent Guard Zietler from Cincy and WR Jeffery from Chicago. Zietler is one of the top ranked guards in the game and a must for an improved OL. Jeffery teamed with franchise tagged Pryor and a returning Gordon with Coleman used in 4-wide out sets. Add in a healthy TE Barnidge and you have one of the best receiving corps in the NFL with a QB who can actually get the ball to them.

THE DRAFT, the Browns should most certainly trade out of the number one spot. The pick itself would get the other teams 1st and 2nd round pick this year and their 1st next year. This still gives the Browns 11 picks this year with an added 1st rounder next year. Let's just say they trade with Arizona who's looking very hard at QB Watson. That would give the Browns the 12th and 13th picks in the first round this year. At 12 they take CB Humprey from Alabama to replace the oft injured, expensive and traded Hayden. At 13, the Browns draft either RB Fournette or RB Cook, whomever is available. With Crowell having contract issues and to not over pay, drafting a stud RB is the correct move to make. Somewhere in the 2nd or 3rd round, the Browns should look for another QB to backup Cutler with Kessler or some middle age vet. 9 of the 11 picks must then be on defense because sooner or later, the Browns have to find a defense that can stop the run.

These moves gives us the ability to draft a true first round QB in 2018 to learn behind Cutler for a couple of years. These moves would get The Browns 8-10 wins in 2017 and a playoff berth in 2018. It's time to be smart and would barely touch our cap space. Time to build a winner.

I'm ganna be totally honest, I stopped reading after this.

I just don't get that logic.

If you wanna say you don't think JG is good, whatever.

But saying you prefer a rookie over someone who's been in the NFL for 3 years to me is just ridiculous.

We're not talking about Luck, he'll we're not even talking about a Winston/Mariota level prospect.

The QBs in this draft are being FORCED up the draft board.

Taking one of them OVER Jimmy G is, again, to me, ridiculous.

Maybe you should have kept reading and maybe you would have understood. If you believe that Garoppolo is worth a 1st round pick after 6 quarters of experience in the NFL and being drafted in the 2nd round then I have some swamp land in Florida for you. I did not say to draft a 1st round rookie either - I'm just saying that this would be crazier than that stupid move of drafting Manziel. There has not been a back up QB to Brady that has been anywhere near what the Pats got for them and this guy is no different. Of course, considering the Browns history of picking QB's - Jimmy G is a perfect hit - over pay and a certain bust!

This is a perfect example of what I was talking about in post #1237109 (Cut and pasted below)

[j/c

It's my observation that everyone who is pro-Garoppolo points to the skills and qualities he has demonstrated in what little game tape there is. Those who are anti-Garoppolo point to all the circumstances beyond his control: where he was drafted (how many teams passed on him), how little game tape there is on him (playing behind one of the best QBs ever), and the performance of other QBs who have been in his position.

PRO - his abilities, CON - his circumstances.]

You can't judge a player based on the performance of other players who were in similar circumstances, you have to judge a player on what he can/can't do.

So Jimmy will suck BECAUSE he was on the Patriots.

Gotcha.

Even more glad I stopped reading when I did..

You missed a couple of gems. Opening up 25 million in cap space by cutting McCown and RG3 and trading Haden and a 2nd for Cutler.

After his opening, I read the rest out of morbid curiosity.

He did say a QB coming out at 12 was preferable than Jimmy at 12 because of Jimmys 6 quarters in the NFL. As opposed to the college guys and their whopping 0 quarters. Another sound logical argument.

I have talked football, dean. I have gave my evaluations on Jimmy G plenty of times. A dude mocking Mayock is cause for me to challenge, despite what guys like Memphis, 32, and YOU say.

I'll talk football, dean............just in case in you missed it.

My notes on Jimmy G: [oh, and I was all about drafting Teddy that year, and Razor was going off on Jimmy G, so I started studying Jimmy G more in order to prove Razor wrong, but I ended up w/the following observations:

Strengths:

--Above average arm
--Reads defenses pre-snap and gets team into right play
--Adept at reading coverages post-snap
--Throws w/anticipation
--Has very quick release
--Adequate size w/solid frame
--Has big stones.........not afraid to make throws. Trusts his arm
--Extremely intelligent

Concerns:
--Forces balls into tight windows [refer back to not being afraid to make throws.] Worried about interceptions at the next level due to better speed in the NFL

--Played in an inferior conference

--Not ideal size

So dean................is that talking football, or not?

Thanks for the cred vers =)

I think people are thinking too much about things that don't matter. There is ONLY one main that a QB needs to be trusted with.

Can he deliver the ball to the exact spot and in the exact way it should be. That's it. That's all that matters.

College performance doesn't matter. Great QB's can be stuck on crappy teams. AVG QB's can look like God on teams stacked with talent.

One thing never lies. Can the QB throw the ball right where it's needed in a catchable way. Jimmy G. has shown that he can do this most important task of the QB. He showed it in college and in the NFL. Whatever you would draft in this draft is nowhere near as good as Jimmy G. already is.

When Jimmy G. was being drafted I said I hoped that we could draft him and let him sit for a few seasons. He landed in the PERFECT scenario for him to finish his training and maturation as a player. I mean just a PERFECT situation and he has made great use of it.

Jimmy G. is ready to go. Not 2 or 3 seasons from now but I mean RIGHT NOW! It's time for the Browns to steal a stud player for once.

As long as we keep Myles the no. 1 priority, then yeah, go after Jim.

Please delete all the ==================== you have in your sig. You're stretching the screen and it's hard to read your outstanding football posts.

I read posts like this, and I feel like the X-Files..."I want to believe!" I read articles like this from Mike Tanier and I'm ready to trade #12 (but not #1.)

But I keep coming back to the question; if Jimmy G is the real deal, why would the Pats be willing to trade him? The answer that makes the most sense to me has 2 parts. First, they believe Brady still has enough left for them to groom another replacement (Jacoby?). Second, that they can get an impact player in return. The downside of being so good year after year is you never get a crack at the best players in the draft.

If that's the case, it has to be someone they REALLY want, otherwise, why trade away a good QB you've groomed and is ready to take over? Who in this draft fits that bill?

I keep coming back to Garrett.

J/C ....

I don't really know a great deal about Garappolo, as I didn't follow him closely in college, nut I think that we would have to make any decision about him based on his college tape as anything else. I almost think that we have to throw out his 2.5 games this past year as a Pat, other than to evaluate the quality of his throws. Even that has to be a very small part of the evaluation, because there are go few throws to actually evaluate.

I remember when Brady Quinn made his 1st start for the Brown. He played against one of the worst pass defenses in the game, and to his credit did have a nice game. People were saying that we had our franchise guy. He had completed 65.7% of his passed in that game, threw 2 TDs, and people were excited about him. (some over the top) I warned that he looked OK in that 1st start, but that there were some big concerns. (Full disclosure; I was a DA guy)

The next 2 games that year saw him struggle mightily.

I think that if someone wants to trade for him based on his college career, then that's fine ..... but to base a trade on what he did in 6 quarters of NFL play is scary.

Just my $0.02 worth. OK, maybe 1.25%.

Just turn off signatures and you will never have that problem again.

Brady says he wants to play into his mid 40s. Only time will tell whether he can or not. To answer your question though in my opinion...if Brady is still playing like Brady at the end of next season, the Pats have a bit of a dilemma on their hands. If they think he can continue with it a few more years, do they also sign Jimmy to a contract that he'd get elsewhere, or do they tag him, or do they let him go for free? Franchise tag could be 21 or 22 million, and transition is probably going to be 18-20 million. He'll be an Unrestricted Free Agent (per spotrac), so he can't be tendered like we just tendered Crowell. The other option is that they can sign him to a long term deal. You'd have to think that'd be at least $16m a year average, since the top 23 QB contracts in the league average more than that now. I'd guess the last option is to tag him and try to trade him.

So...$18m plus to sit behind Brady for a season, or $16m plus contract for say 5 years while Brady's cap hit is $22m each of his last 2 years (2018 and 2019). $40m-ish dedicated to QBs in 2018 for NE doesn't sound like a NE thing to do.

IF Brady wants continue to play out his contract, and continues to play at a high level, trading Jimmy now likely gets them the best deal. It is a gamble though on their part if they believe he's their future QB.

As to specific players they'd want, who knows, knowing the Pats, they'd trade the 12 to move down. Regardless they could use a pick on an OT to groom, a linebacker, secondary, maybe a TE, maybe an edge rusher.

I've heard that argument before, and understand it. Thing is, Brady is entering uncharted territory. His physical skills could fall off a cliff between the SB and TC. Or not. He could get injured next season, a simple injury that a younger man might fight through, but at 40, the body just isn't cooperating. Or not.

Bill B is a smart cookie. If he has to choose, after 2017, between a ready to excel JG and a still great but 41 y/o Brady, he might choose to trade Brady. There will be a market for him if he's still playing at a high level.

It just seems to me that keeping Brady's replacement ready and in place makes more sense than trading him on the chance Brady defies age another 3-4 years; unless Bill is confident he can replace him with someone else and gets something meaningful out of the trade.

The question comes back to; what is enough of a return for Bill to forego that safety net? Would the #12+ or #33+ be enough?