DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... White House: Keystone exempt from 'Buy American' requirements

What are you guys thoughts on this? This is a bit confusing.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/keystone-pipeline-buy-american-exemption-235639

The Keystone XL Pipeline will not be subject to President Donald Trump's executive order requiring infrastructure projects to be built with American steel, a White House spokeswoman said today.

Trump signed the order calling for the Commerce Department to develop a plan for U.S. steel to be used in “all new pipelines, as well as retrofitted, repaired or expanded pipelines” inside the U.S. projects “to the maximum extent possible.”


By the White House’s judgment, that description would not include Keystone XL, which developer TransCanada first proposed in 2008.

“The Keystone XL Pipeline is currently in the process of being constructed, so it does not count as a new, retrofitted, repaired or expanded pipeline,” the White House spokeswoman said.

That interpretation removes one potential hurdle for Keystone, and it clarifies shifting rhetoric from Trump on the order.

“We put you heavy into the pipeline business because we approved, as you know, the Keystone Pipeline, but they have to buy ... steel made in this country and pipelines made in this country,” Trump told U.S. Steel Chief Executive Mario Longhi at a Feb. 23 meeting.

However, in his address to Congress earlier this week, Trump spoke of the order in the same sentence as Keystone but carefully described it as directing "that new American pipelines be made with American steel."

Removing the steel condition could help persuade TransCanada to fully drop the $15 billion NAFTA complaint against the U.S., which it suspended earlier this week.

A TransCanada spokesman declined today to comment on the NAFTA lawsuit.

"Removing the steel condition could help persuade TransCanada to fully drop the $15 billion NAFTA complaint against the U.S."

Hmmmmmm. Tempting.

right?

It's like, you want it to be american made, but it still needs to be cost effective, and that lawsuit...yikes.

so what do you do?

thats why they get paid the big bucks.

I guess when it comes to their companies, they are exempt from hiring Americans. This is current, just reported that Eric filed a request for 23 more foreign workers a couple weeks ago. Seriously, You can't find some supporters or students to work for 11 something a hour.

Trump Vineyard Requests Visas For Still More Foreign Workers

“America First” doesn’t apply to Trump wines.

While President Donald Trump rails against immigrants and foreign workers taking away American jobs, the Trump Vineyard Estates has filed yet another request for visas for foreign farm workers at its Virginia winery.


The application filed last week asks for H-2 worker visa for 23 laborers at $11.27 an hour from April through October this year.


In December, Trump Vineyard Estates also filed an application with the Department of Labor seeking six visas that would allow the company to hire foreign workers for seasonal jobs. That paperwork was submitted just days after Trump urged an Indiana company not to ship American jobs to Mexico.


Trump Winery, which the president’s son Eric Trump owns, would employ the workers, according to Buzzfeed, The winery’s website says it is a registered trade name of Eric Trump Wine Manufacturing LLC and is “not owned, managed or affiliated with Donald J. Trump, The Trump Organization or any of their affiliates.”


But the winery is located on the Trump Vineyard Estates LLC, which filed the visa request.Trump Vineyard Estates is listed as part of the real estate portfolio of the Trump Organization, according to its website. When Trump became president he said he would switch management of his companies to his sons but would maintain ownership. He revealed in a 2015 campaign financial disclosure filing that Trump Vineyard Estates had earned him $150,000 to $1.1 million, Politico reported at the time.


He also boasted at a campaign event last year featuring bottles from the Trump Winery — which was reportedly transferred to Eric Trump in 2012 — that “I own it 100 percent — no mortgage, no debt.”


Trump won approval in December to also hire 77 foreign workers at his Mar-a-Lago resort and Jupiter golf course through the H-2B visa program, according to a review of data from the U.S. Department of Labor shows conducted by Vocativ.


CNN reported last summer that Trump companies have employed at least 1,256 foreign workers — most from Romania and South Africa — in the past 15 years. The companies applied to hire 263 foreign workers even after Trump launched his campaign in which he railed against the loss of U.S. jobs to foreign workers

Well I look at it this way...

If Canada has a good case and we could lose 15 billion, something to consider.

If Canada, who has lead the way on this pipeline has already made the steel pipes and has them stored on site, telling a good partner to stuff their investment is not wise.

If Canada steel is used but American workers must be used to install it here can be done...

I sure am glad Trump is here to negotiate the best deal for America on this one!

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/11/...6d-s800-c85.jpg


Pipes for TransCanada's planned Keystone XL pipeline are stored in Gascoyne, N.D. The U.S. House has voted to approve the proposed project, which would allow crude oil to flow from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico.

The remaining portion of the Keystone pipeline project, if completed, will be fewer than 1,200 miles long.
Not going to add 10000 american jobs to lay 1200 miles of pipe.

that's what she said.

Most of the reported jobs for this project would actually been in the manufacture and transport of the pipe. the actual install of the pipe only equates to a few thousand jobs.

and that's mostly temporary jobs.

To some degree, many construction jobs are temporary. It's just kind of how that business works.

Yep. Infrastructure jobs are also "temporary", because once the job is done, the employment is done. Obviously the hope is that once a particular project ends, the state and local governments will have collected more money in taxes, and then they will have more money to work on local and state projects, which will employ people. Then the hope is that the cycle continues.

I have to add this; Ohio has a $2 billion "rainy day fund". I think that we need a rainy day fund, but $1 billion is plenty for that. We could use that $1 billion to fix roads, bridges, etc.

and that's fine. My beef is with them marketing it as if it's gonna be long term/permanent jobs.

i just wish they kept it real. gonna higher about 1000 temporary, and maybe about 100 or so people will be kept in order to maintain/repair.

i just get tired of politicians R or D selling dreams.

Houston, we have a problem.

Obama tried to pass infrastructure bills only to be blocked by the GOP. Now Trump wants to do the same thing and the GOP suddenly thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread! lmao

But if we're talking about temporary jobs here, we would never pass an infrastructure bill because they're all temporary jobs. Just like arch said, that's the very nature of such jobs.

It's a bit more detailed than that, though. Seriously, you should know that.

And Obama and his "shovel ready infrastructure jobs", that turned out to be not so shovel ready?

What are you even talking about?

Obama tried to pass an infrastructure bill that the GOP hated. They didn't want to spend money on our infrastructure. Now that Trump wants to do the same thing, spending almost twice as much as Obama proposed, it's suddenly a great idea.

That's what happened. Now on a personal note, I don't care who passes it or who gets it done, as long as it gets done. But trying to use revisionist history to try to deny what's happened to this point is silly. Don't be so defensive arch.

This is both pathetic and completely unsurprising.


Hey Trump - don't make a big show of something if the first time it is challenged you're going to cave in on it.



There goes the one thing I felt he had done decently thus far.

Yea, we must hold his feet to the fire even if he can get a better deal for America.

That is Pathetic.

Strip Trump of his greatest strength, his ability to negotiate a deal, by insisting on his holding to his opening bid.

Well this fits Trump well. He is so easy to understand as long as you know which side of his mouth he is talking out of.

He probably cut a deal with Canada to enrich himself somehow, then threw the rules out. Art of the Deal baby! Make Trump richer!

SAD.

I had a list at one time of all the Obama proposed projects. It was quite a list. There were some proposed that could have been quick turnaround projects, but there were also many that would have taken some time to engineer, permit, etc.

And that will be the case with Trumps plan also.

I'm still lost as to why we're allowing this thing to be built.

I work in the oil industry. There is absolutely no reason for this. Very minimal benefit.

Why are we building a pipeline for Canadian Oil to be sent to the Gulf Of Mexico? With the lift in restrictions of exporting Crude, it won't even be refined.



This smells of oil lobbyists paying for what they want, and supporters selling an idea of "Creating Jobs" and "Wealth" that isn't there because A) It sounds good or B) They're getting donations from Oil Lobbyists.

It's everything I hate about this government. Plus not using American Steel sucks for me because I own American Iron Ore Companies and Cleveland Cliffs could use the business. But overall, we're putting a pipeline through the heartland of our country so some Canadian Oil Company can ship their Crude Overseas.

I'm a registered Republican (probably not for long though), and this is just stupid.

This has been my main gripe about KXL from the start.

Aside from the temp jobs it will create, there's virtually no upside for the American people. Canada sells the oil to foreign buyers, and America gets used like the 80/90 turnpike.

In the meantime, we take ALL the 3,000-mile environmental risks, citizens lose their property rights through Eminent Domain, and all those temp contractors are back looking for jobs, once 'the turnpike' opens.

I'd say that I've never understood this line of thinking, but I'd be disingenuous in saying that. I know EXACTLY why this initiative has been pushed so hard.

And like you, I worked in this industry years ago. I know how they think, and I know how they operate. I know their priorities, agenda and tactics.


This goes beyond partisanship on a sports fansite message board. American Citizen R's and D's alike should be looking askance at this skeevy-ass deal. It's as crooked as a dog's hind leg... and John Q will never see a dime of long-term benefit from it.

More of the usual from Washington.

#sameasiteverwas

You pretty much nailed it

Exactly. I just don't get it. Well I do get it. It's just nonsense.

Especially now that the Steel doesn't even have to be American Steel. What are we getting out of this? We should at least demand some things. American Steel. American workers. And the oil has to be refined here in the United States.

I mean, for godsakes. The oil that it will be moving is produced at like 60-70$ a barrel. They can barely afford producing it with the 55$ a barrel cost of crude on the global market (which we shouldn't even be on, we should have our own with a stable price, but that's a whole other thing). It's just stupid

The extension of the existing pipeline will create domestic jobs, raise local revenue, ensure a more consistent energy supply and improve America's energy independence from hostile nations.
The Keystone XL Pipeline project is estimated to bring in $20 billion of private sector investment into the American economy, create 20,000 direct jobs, spur the creation of 118,000 spin-off jobs and pay out $5 billion in taxes to local counties over the project's lifetime.

If the U.S. passes up this project, TransCanada has already indicated its interest in building the pipeline to the west to supply crude oil to China. This would be more detrimental to the environment because China does not adhere to the same standard of air quality regulations as the U.S.

http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook/article/U-S-needs-the-Keystone-pipeline-2252675.php

Once the pipeline is operating, 27 counties will collect an additional $56 million in taxes.

America will be refining this oil before it goes to the buyers, be they us or be they foreign. Money in the bank.

They are temporary jobs. It is temporary 'local revenue.' Once the pipeline is built, these same American contractors will be again looking for permanent work. No solution.

A 'more consistent energy supply' is NOT guaranteed... because the oil never actually lands upon American soil. It flows under, above, and through us... but 'American John Q' gets no direct benefit from this pipeline. None at all.

What 118,000 'spin-off jobs' will be created from a static pipeline that runs through peoples back yards? Maintenance stations? (One guy in a shack, every 20-100 miles, with a walkie-talkie to alert some functionary who works for HQ? Part-time/on-call 'damage-control' units who can only do on-site 'damage control,' once the spill has already dumped? A team of 'counter-EPA lawyers' in Midtown Manhattan who are kept on retainer to fight the lawsuits that counter-sue Mary and John Q, when their groundwater has been irreparably poisoned? Hoe does that add up to 118K permanent jobs, 40?

What spin-off jobs, exactly, 40?

(That's the problem with a quick cut/paste response: it doesn't hold up to a rebuttal from someone who actually reads and processes information...)

_____________________

...and how does any of this actually benefit the folks who have an 18" pipe (made in China) of blackish-greenish raw Canadian Sour Crude sludging its way through their back yards and farm lands?

These initiatives do next-to nothing to ensure 'a more consistent energy supply,' for Americans, because the oil comes from Canada... and flows directly to countries outside our borders. Our Houston refineries may get to process some of the product, but the bulk of even that processed product will flow out beyond our borders.

[Trump's projected meddling with our standing trade agreements with neighbors (both north and south) puts another monkey wrench in the process. Dude's a loose cannon that NO trade partner has any faith in, at the moment.]

So, when you say junk like this: "America will be refining this oil before it goes to the buyers, be they us or be they foreign. Money in the bank."... you are talking/repeating (a blogspot) out of your ass- with no Real-Life facts as your backing.

#40'sfakenewsondisplay

40 Dawg: I enjoy your posts, most of the time. You're funny, clever, and know how to arrange words to keep a conversation alive. On that, you get my props. But this is some serious-ass stuff... and I'll brook no nonsense, when America's biggest issues are at stake.

This [crap] is simply too important to treat as a partisan "point-counterpoint" issue.

Petey hails from the center-right on most general issues. I hail from center-left on many of the same. And yet, we both see this one from the same POV.

2 Dawgs from (semi) opposite sides of the political spectrum, saying the same things- because they've both actually worked for the same industry are telling this community something from the same POV...

Maybe this would be a good time to STFU... and listen to people who actually know something about this subject (from the inside)....

...instead of playing that same, tired old "UMv.OSU/CLEv.PIT" game that you're so good at.


...Or not.


This is your (Obama's words) "teachable moment."
Play this as you see fit, Dawg.

.

Now stop that Clem! It's not PC to make less intelligent Americans feel dumb because they don't bother to educate themselves or use REAL FACTS when spouting canned rhetoric.

If you're not careful you will reveal their inner snowflake.

Today, PC is resolving all arguments related to Politics and Policy by grunting a one liner and chanting Trump! Trump! Trump!... get with the times Clem.

And how dare you challenge the already challenged to read! Don't you know the dangers of education and facts? Trump is the only source we need for our news 'cause he tells it like it is!

And don't buy into those pesky fact checkers saying he lies almost every time he opens his mouth, they don't know him like we do. Yep we have a special Trump translator built into our brains; it runs on ignorance, racism, flawed worldviews, alternative facts and fear of everything all encased in an alternate reality!

So don't you go preaching the truth around here 'cause we're not buying it.

mic drop ~ OCD

"Consistent Energy Supply". Love that one.

Take a look! We are number 3, producing just 10% less than Number 1. 9.2 million barrels of crude a day http://money.cnn.com/interactive/news/economy/worlds-biggest-oil-producers/ . And if prices made it profitable for us to be higher, we would be. This is the most up to date i could find now, but no reason it would be less. 9.2x(19/42) is how much gasoline we refine from it. Times that by 42 (as we turn barrels into gallons) and we have about 175 Gallons of Gasoline, that we produce, a day. Please correct me if my math is wrong.

And that's just what's profitable for us. We have the largest supply of oil reserves in the world. (http://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/US-Has-Worlds-Largest-Oil-Reserves.html)


It's just ridiculous. Consistent Oil Supply. For godsakes, we have the biggest reserves in the world. These are those things folks don't realize and they don't explain. The reason why gasoline prices dropped so much was because of our shale oil/fracking industry. Drilling was open again in the Gulf and we had access to this new form of oil. There was an added supply to the market, then Saudi Arabia tried to put the shale oil companies out of business, and they failed. Once they realized they did, everyone cut back on production (because why over produce a finite resource)

Our oil supply is consistent. Through Tarrifs and Laws (Large Export Taxes/Banning Export of Crude and Big import Taxes) oil prices can be completely stable for us.


People don't have an understanding of the facts, and it's quite upsetting. Maybe if people did, we could start getting with our government representatives and demand they work for us instead of the oil lobbyists. I mean, remember those commercials in the campaign. "I'm an energy voter", i mean for godsakes, what did that even mean? Don't vote for Bernie? Because I guarantee you Hillary, Trump, Cruz were all paid off by Big Oil

That's kind of true, but not really. Those companies that work on contracts don't just fold and go out of business when they complete a job. So yeah, this particular job will be done, but that company will be moving on to other jobs and those employees keep working and paying taxes. Plus that company invests in materials and equipment, which keeps other people working too.

but to the pipeline deal, I dont really have a problem with it , this job has already been bid out and contracted for the supplies and equipment, that takes months or years sometimes. Its not like they just run down t Home Depot and pick up their supplies(and some cheap illegal labor ;] and head to the job site.

Trump promised it would be built with american steel.

and we also know he is an idiot liar who has no freaking clue how things actually work. I can't really be upset about all these things when I knew many of them would not happen anyways

There are some things that I think some of you are unaware of. Many of you keep saying temporary jobs. I think that is misleading and here is why. Construction companies often hire a "crew." If they have a crew that is working well and doing well they will find them more work to keep them with the company. Big projects like this one enable younger workers with less experience to GAIN EXPERIENCE and get inserted into a regular crew. That then becomes a somewhat permanent job. As more infrastructure is built by said company that "crew" will move from job to job together so these jobs are not just temporary jobs but actually quite invaluable for young construction workers.

Canada is one of our biggest allies in this world. They pay good wages to their people and compete for work fairly. They are actually worthy of being in Nafta with us. They also buy lots of American made goods. There is no good reason to mess things up with them by telling them to throw away the products they made for the pipeline in good faith.

The benefit of the oil from Canada is pretty valuable for the USA. It increases volume on the market which lowers prices globally. Second it offers us the chance to import it for ourselves instead of getting it from the middle east. If we get more of our oil from Canada then it also relieves pressure to fight and compete with China for oil in the middle east. That is a good thing for the entire world.

Most jobs are temprorary in that sense. It goes from one order to the next. If the orders slow down, the work slows down.

Construction by it's very nature is temporary. I finished a 3 week job last Tuesday. Started another one Wednesday and finished it today. Monday I'll do another one and Tuesday (still waiting on word for the next job) I'll start another one.

Seems you are a whole lot smarter than all the people who posted the benefits of the pipeline after your post.

I guess the thousands who work at the refineries, who will refine this oil for the world and all the young people who learn a trade and gain experience with these temporary jobs and those who made a name for themselves by this work, who move on with the companies to new projects should just STFU too.

It was the intelligent people like you who cried the Alaska Pipeline was bad for mankind. The animals would not cross it and would die by the thousands they said. The permafrost would melt and the leaks would pollute all of Alaska into a wasteland!
Well the leaks didn't come, the animals actually cozy up to the pipeline because it is warm, and they thrive, crossing it daily. They built it above the permafrost where needed and all is going well.
So many workers went to work on that pipeline and filled their pockets with wealth to begin a new life in the lower 48. Many learned how to be expert welders and heavy machinery operators and mechanics. They brought these learned skills back home with them, having set themselves up for life!

You and people like you with their "You can't do that!" attitude just don't fly in our "Can Do" America!


"The Trouble with our Liberal friends is they know so much that just isn't so."
-Ronald Reagan

Post made in error. Wrong info. My bad.

U gonna go fix the rest of your posts ... *L*

Ted and Peen:

I feel you guys. But is that how it's gonna work with this project?

Also, why can't it be marketed that way? It's a bit deceiving, IMO.

Also, why promise it to be built with American steel if that isn't the case?