DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Front Office...continued

Wow. That's pretty damning.

It is especially cringe worthy listening to the RBS and having guys like Rizzo and Hammer have to build Grossi up. You know they don't even believe he's any good, but they're kind of obligated to do it.

Grossi has given one good thing to the fans though. I love the "hundred years war" narrative. That's funny as hell.

No doubt, Rish. WKNR in general is a complete dumpster fire. The station, including "Uncle Rizzy" and Erin is a complete joke. Checkout the RBS sub-reddit thread sometime.....unless you're already on there. I think you'd dig it.

If I have to hear them do another show of "where are you at with taking Watson at #1", another call from Keith in Lakewood, Rizz saying "I've been doing this for 30 years, bro" or a winterize your body with placebo bee pills live-
read again, I'm going to continue to lose my mind!

And you're right, WKNR tries desperately to build Grossi's credibility.

I digress.

Yeah really. I can't believe we spend this much time on this BS. Not sure what it has to do w/the FO??????????????

Very little about the FO has been discussed in this thread for a few months now. Maybe I will start posting articles about other teams Front Offices. It doesn't say it has to be the Browns front office. Since ours is "so bad", maybe we should start reading about how good all the others are.

Was Terrelle Pryor smart to take the 1 year deal from the Redskins? Hey, Mary Kay!

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Hey, Mary Kay!

March 12, 2017 at 7:26 AM
By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com
link

Hey, Mary Kay: I think Terrelle Pryor was smart. Things were not going well at the negotiations table with the Browns. So a one-year deal allows him to show more of what he can do. If he does well he can always meet with the Browns next year. -- John Kortan, Cleveland, Ohio

Hey, John: Pryor and his agents obviously weren't happy with the Browns' four-year offer of about $8 million to $9 million a year with a sizable guarantee. They believe he can average more than that, especially if he has another good season. If he flourishes with Kirk Cousins in Washington, he'll position himself well heading into free agency next year.

The Redskins could either franchise him at more than $15 million a year, sign him to a multi-year extension or let him accept a higher offer elsewhere. Had he taken the Browns offer, he would've been locked in at that average for possibly the rest of his career. Now, he has a chance to prove he deserves to be paid like a No. 1 receiver. His deal with Washington is for about $6 million for 2017, with $2 million more in incentives. It's unfortunate he's no longer with the Browns, but he's setting himself up for a big payday with another 1,000-yard season.

Just posted the part about Pryor since how the front office valued Pryor with their "analytics formula" is a point of discussion.

The final judgement on whether the Browns properly valued Pryor will come after the 2017 season.

Will Kenny Britt perform up to expectations and continue to improve putting up another 1000 yd season in 2017?

Will Pryor continue to improve his game and prove that the Browns under valued his potential?

Both men will have some pressure to improve upon their 2016 performance...and final judgement on the front offices decision will come in about 9 months.

How do you "undervalue" a guy's potential when you just offered him nearly 50% MORE money than what he signed for elsewhere? 4 years at 8-9 million a year is faaaaaaaaaar from undervaluing a guy like him. He was set for life with that deal.

I know it goes against your grain/agenda...but c'mon man. Go back to bashing the FO for the Schwartz debacle...that's all you've got left.

One real downside for what Pryor did is that he has lost every bit of injury protection. He gets hurt this year, year ending, and he'll he a 29 year old WR coming off injury. That's a tough situation in which to get big money. If he were to, God forbid, be injured in a career ending manner, instead of receiving his guarantees, he'll get just this one year of guarantees/

He's definitely betting on himself big.

Stop making crap up.

What should the Browns have offered Pryor?

Where did the Browns go wrong?

Thats easy ... I'm sure mac will be a bit more long winded though ... *L* ...

Question 1 - more .. i.e.: whatever it took ,,

Question 2 - they didn't offer whatever it took ...

And there u have it ... gee, getting into macs head wasn't nearly as bad as i thought it would be ... there's pretty much only one thought in it ... *LOL* ..

mac, I hear what you are saying, but where you and I disagree Pryor being the best player. You would not have said that two years ago. Pryor had a great year last season don't get me wrong. As the season progressed, he wasn't able to sustain those numbers. Call it injury, QB, and/or team overall. I think Pryor easily can have next season be completely the opposite. Pryor isn't coming into this season unknown like last year. His YAC is something to take note as an exploitable weakness.

I think Pryor must double his mental game efforts over last year. In Washington, he will play the role as primary receiver on a team much more qualified to make the playoffs. He will be compared to Desean Jackson. He must produce at a level a nine year vet accomplished.

As for the better player re-signed, I believe Joel Bitonio was the right choice. Browns will soon seek a replacement for Joe Thomas. Having a veteran LG will help.

[/color]20 mil a year for 6 years, fully guaranteed, with escalators to make sure he is always the highest paid receiver in the NFL, veto power over all trades, the ability to take days off from any practices, play calling abilities (even though he no longer plays QB), access to Haslam, plus Keys to Haslam's home in Tennessee, a private plane with pilot paid for by the Browns, Free Healthcare for life, plus free fuel for life at any Pilot/Flying J Truck Stop anywhere in the world.

Oh .. and ditto for Drew Rosenhaus...[color:#FF99FF]

I think that would do it... ( maybe )

Time. That's where they went wrong. They were being greedy and they know it. They knew he wanted to be paid ~12 mil over a few years and they gave him 2/3ths of that for the same amount of years. Hoping that he would produce like a top 10 WR like Pryor thinks he can. They should have just been men about this and agree with giving Pryor another prove it deal. It was the obvious compromise, but we insisted on trying to sign him to a multi-year deal. Instead we sign Britt who is very underwhelming. Also a much worse influence in the lockerroom than TP.

There is a strange argument about the Browns signing Joel Bitonio to five-year, $51 million deal ($23 million guaranteed). It goes like this: The Browns failed to sign Alex Mack and Mitchell Schwartz to extensions, so why spend so much on Bitonio? The fact that they did not keep Mack and Schwartz on the line -- and it hurt the team -- is why the policy had to change.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/03/cleveland_browns_have_terry_ta_106.html

So mac ..... by your way of thinking, every front office who lost a homegrown player this year should be fired, right?

Lose 1 and bring in 3, get out. Right. Lose a free agent, you're fired. Right? Because that seems to be what you're arguing.

I guess a ton of NFL teams are going to be looking for new front offices, because a bunch of teams lost at least 1 free agent.

I don't think that's correct at all. Letting players like that go was not part of a pre-determined policy that had to change this year. I cannot believe their policy was to let quality players go when they hit FA. If it was then mac is spot-on.

Mack left two years prior. He came back due to NFL contractual rules of allowing the Browns to match the contract the Jags gave him. As soon as that time was up Mack left again. One not need be a Menza to see that he was determined to move on. Regarding Schwartz, we don't have the details but we all know that deal went south.

In addition, "The fact that they did not keep Mack and Schwartz on the line...", is not what hurt the team. What hurt the team was losing both starting Guards to injury, coupled with Erving's inability to play Center. Had Mack and Schwartz stayed, the line would still have gone to shambles by losing both Bitonio and Greco at the same time.

No offense, but losing Mack and Schwartz hurt the team.

I know Vers, it hurt bad.

You don't have to agree with me that Mack was gone no matter what, but with him inevitably gone, both starting guards injured and no one to play center the line went to hell fast. Even if we had solid center play we'd still have been in a world of crap.

I agree with you that even with all the adversity the line was not as bad as the QBs made them look.

Oh........I'm not arguing losing our two guards hurt. It hurt a lot. I was just saying that losing two quality players like Mack and Schwartz hurt.

I did think the OL played better than I expected, though. I think some folks exaggerate when evaluating how bad they were last year.

I hope the new guys can upgrade the line. But, we still need a qb. If we roll w/Kessler, people are gonna be slamming the OL again.

I don't think anybody ever said it didn't hurt. Who said that? I know I haven't.

What I have said is we had no shot at Mack, and Schwartz didn't know a good deal when he saw it, just like Pryor.

Oh my goodness. I am really getting tired of people questioning me when I am replying to direct quotes.

ddub said this:



I came back w/something like:

No offense, but I think losing Mack and Schwartz hurt the team.

Y'all try too freaking hard.

Ok, sorry buddy....I don't read every post. Calm down. I am not questioning you in a probing or adversarial manner.

Terrelle Pryor gave the Browns a chance after Redskins offer after all, source says

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com
Follow on Twitter
on March 12, 2017 at 6:07 PM, updated March 12, 2017 at 9:52 PM
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CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Receiver Terrelle Pryor gave the Browns another chance after the Redskins offered him a one-year deal after all, a league source told cleveland.com.

It had been reported here Friday that he didn't, but a source close to the situation said that he did.

When he came back, the Browns' original offer had been reduced, the source said.

At that point, it made more sense for Pryor to take the higher offer from the Redskins, which is worth $6 million and a chance to make $2 million more in incentives. It also included a $3 million signing bonus.

The source said Pryor wanted to return to the Browns and held out as long as he could for the Browns to increase their original offer of about $8 million over four years with a sizable guarantee.

The Browns also really wanted to keep Pryor, and had been working to do so since training camp.

Pryor and his agents, Drew and Jason Rosenhaus, didn't accept that offer because Pryor didn't want to be locked into $8 million a year when the felt he could make more, especially if he topped his 1,000-yard season in 2017. One source told cleveland.com he was hoping to make elite receiver money, up to $15 million a year.

Three teams offered him a multiyear deal worth $10 million and one offered $11 million, the source said. But again, Pryor and his agents felt he could get more after 2017 with another big year.

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Pryor also didn't accept any of those other offers because he wanted to remain with the Browns, which he had been adamant about throughout the process.

He held out as long as he could, hoping the Browns would increase their offer. They came up a little, the source said, to about $8.5 million a year, but not enough for Pryor's liking.

When the Browns opted not to franchise Pryor by March 1 at about $15.7 million, it became clear they weren't going to budge much, the source said.

Browns head of football operations Sashi Brown, who had been working hard to extend Pryor throughout the season, also made it clear at the NFL Combine that the Browns had alternate plans and were prepared to go in another direction.

"We'd like to have Terrelle back and that's a priority for us,'' he said. "That said, we're not going to panic if he's not back, also.

"I appreciated his remarks with the press about wanting to stay in Cleveland, and then it's on us in this process here to try to make sure we can exhaust all options to make that happen.''

He also said of not franchising him, "we understand that means he's effectively a free agent.''

At that point Pryor knew he might not be back, but continued to hope things would change.

The two sides stayed in contact, but remained far apart, despite the fact the Browns had an NFL-high $102 million in cap space.

In the two-day negotiating period before free agency, Pryor received the offers from the four teams, but none he was willing to accept.

He hit free agency on Thursday and soon watched the Browns sign receiver Kenny Britt, 28, to a deal similar to the one they had offered him: four years, $32.5 million ($8.1 million average), including $17 million guaranteed. Britt, a ninth-year pro, had almost identical numbers to Pryor in 2016: 68 catches, 1,002 yards and five TDs. Pryor had 77 catches for 1,007 yards and four TDs.

The Browns on Thursday also signed free agent guard Kevin Zeitler to a five-year contract worth $60 million, making him the highest paid guard in the NFL with an annual average of $12 million a year.

The same day, the Browns spent $16 million to effectively purchase a second-round pick from the Texans in the Brock Osweiler trade.

"They were willing to spend a lot of their cap money, just not on (Pryor),'' the source said.

On Thursday night, Pryor headed to Washington to visit with the Redskins and they offered him the one-year deal. Pryor still wanted to return to Cleveland, where he felt comfortable and where he loved playing for Hue Jackson.

So they shopped the offer to the Browns, but they declined to match or exceed it, the source said. The offer was less than what they were going to originally pay him.

Pryor, 27, signed with the Redskins, and will have the chance to hit free agency again after the season.

"He has a lot of faith in himself to have a great season,'' one source close to Pryor said.

Pryor will play with quarterback Kirk Cousins, who finished last season as the No. 7 quarterback in the NFL with a 97.2 rating. Cousins signed his $24 million franchise tender this week and expects to be in Washington, despite the fact he asked owner Dan Snyder to trade him, according to ESPN's Chris Mortensen.

The source said Pryor is excited to be in Washington despite the fact he didn't want to leave Cleveland. He loved the fans, his teammates and his coaches.

The Browns were the only team to give him a chance when he converted from quarterback to receiver, and Jackson helped mold him into a 1,000-yard receiver last season.

He had made it clear to his agents that he wanted to return to Cleveland despite the 1-15 record last season.

"I do love being with the Browns and like I said before, this thing isn't about joining a different team because a different team's good.

"That's not what it's about. I love the building process here. I started out in my career never coming in the front door. I've alway got to go in the back, the hard way and the long way.''

Like his teammate Joe Thomas, he wanted to be part of the turnaround under Jackson.

"I have no problem with, just because we were 1-15 or whatever this year, coming back,'' he said. "I don't mind starting fresh next year and continuing to grow, because I think it's more exciting when you're on the bottom. I'm always citing starting from the bottom and getting to the top, and I think it's a greater feeling and it would be great to give Cleveland what they're looking for.''

In Washington, the Redskins lost Desean Jackson and Pierre Garcon and needed a featured receiver. In Cleveland, the Browns have Corey Coleman and now Britt, and Pryor may not have started as much as he will in Washington.

"He'll leave the door open to coming back to Cleveland,'' the source said. "It's really where he wanted to be all along.''

If any of that is the truth, I am glad it worked out as it did. Pryor is a head case.

I'll bet we win more games with him off the team then we won with him on the team.

When MKC cites an unidentified source, it usually means she read it on twitter.

The FO offered Pryor a more than fair deal, and he chose to take less to go somewhere else. That's his choice.

I'm not a fan of MKC but I can't blame her. She was just doing her job. Her source was most likely Rosenhaus trying to help save face for his client as much as possible.

Let's review this accordingly and remember - football is a business and not a charity. First and foremost, Pryor is closing in on 28 and has had only 1 good year and not productive the entire year at that. Secondly, throwing money at a player just to keep them on your team does not make them a good player. Pryor has upside but upside does not mean guaranteed contracts and true #1 receiver money.

DeShawn Jackson signed a 3-year 35 million dollar contract - is Pryor in the same league as Jackson? Brandon Marshall signed a 2-year 11 million dollar deal. A.J. Green is only scheduled to make a little more than 10 million each year over the next 2-years. Come on people, Pryor is not and will not be an A.J. Green. If the sources are accurate and Pryor wanted elite WR pay at 15 million per year then he should be gone because it's a freaking joke if he values himself so high for 1-year of production.

More often than not, teams always over pay for free agents with mixed results. I'm sure the Browns might have done that too this season but time will tell. However, you don't just hand money to players because they are your own. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that fans were raising holy hell for the Browns not giving the bank to Cribbs. Hmmmm, where is he now and what did he do after leaving the Browns? Special teams player for the Jets in 2013, special teams player for the Colts in 2014 and hasn't been in the league since but Browns fans wanted to give him multi millions for what? How about Peyton Hillis? Another Browns player the fans demanded the Browns deal out multi millions too that didn't deserve it. One good year in Cleveland followed by an injury plagued year who thought he deserved elite pay and fans agreed. He bolted for bigger money and what happened? 309 yds rushing in 2012, 247 in 2013, and 115 in 2014 and hasn't played a down since but Browns fans said it was the biggest mistake in the history of the Browns.

Bottom-line, 8.5 million for Pryor was overly fair for a player with 1-year of production. 15 million is nothing more than a joke. It is also why he is now sitting on a 1-year deal for 8 million in Washington - market value and a prove it contract. One final point, Mack left Cleveland because he didn't want to be here - Nothing more, nothing less. Keep in mind, the Browns offered Mack $500,000 more per year than what Atlanta paid Mack. Mack didn't want to stay in Cleveland. The Schwartz issue was totally different. The Browns offered Schwartz 7 million per year but he thought his value was between 8-10 million. When he wasn't getting calls, he went back to the Browns hoping to get a bump on the 7 million and the Browns pulled the offer. Though Swartz really wanted to stay in Cleveland, his thought value was way more than the market. Schwartz eventually signed with the Chiefs for 6.6 million per year. Was the Browns trying to squeeze Schwartz or was it the Browns knowing the market value? Obviously Schwartz and his agent thought he was above market value, KC obviously did not nor did the Browns.

Every team makes mistakes with contracts and the Browns are no different. Heck, they are sitting on a 16 million dollar QB in Osweiler that Houston grossly over paid on an assumption. You don't pay on guesses and/or assumptions. That leads me into Garoppolo, trading the house and/or giving this guy multi millions for 6 quarters of work is just plain stupid. The Browns are still building mostly through the draft - stay the course. Get an ESTABLISHED vet for the next couple of years (Romo or Cutler), draft your QB this year or next and let that draftee and Kessler learn behind the vet the next two seasons and build your team around your QB to win for many seasons to come. Don't spend just to be spending!

Just general thoughts for the rest of this off season that this FO needs to address either by draft of FA.

1. A must...A strong, big starting QB with experience. (Keep "O"?)
2. Defense line edge rushers.
3. Defensive Backs, SS, LB. (Fast strong beasts)
4. A hybrid type RB or TE or two that can catch, block, run, who can get out into the flats quick and also be a deeper threat (Gronk style).
5. Add depth everywhere. Especially Oline, WR, RB.

... and that it's unreliable lol.

Let's see if I can sum up the majority of poster's opinions on this board:

If the news is negative toward the Browns, the article/source/reporter full of crap and if the news is positive, the article/source/reporter is gospel.

So many of you are just as bad as mac. One-sided thinking is typically not accurate.

Let's see Brown's original offer is turned down by Pryor. Pryor says he's going to look for a better deal. He can't seem to find one. Pryor gives the Brown's a second chance. Clev. offers more than what he ended up signing for. How is this a FO breakdown again?

Pryor turned down two separate deals. 2 count them.... 1 offer..... 2 offer....GONE! Pryor's agent was only playing us to get more money out of the Redskins. Pryor wasn't going to stay here, there is no way. I probably wouldn't either if I was him. Moving on.

Just to be clear. I am NOT bashing the FO at all. You win some, you lose some.

I just don't like one-sided bias from either side. It's best to look at things objectively and fairly.

Simply put....It's not.

That being said, I still wish Pryor was on this team, but I think his camp screwed up big time. I personally don't believe Drew and Pryor came back to see if the Browns would offer slightly more or match. I also don't believe the reports that the Browns offered more.My guess is once the FO was told their contract wasn't good enough for Pryor, it went directly to Kenny Britt, and the relationship was severed from there.

1. The short-term bad in all of this is that Terrell Pryor is not on the team. That sucks.

2. The long-term good is that the FO now has a track record of offering extremely good, fair-market contracts ahead of free agency to two players (Schwartz and Pryor) who found out they should have just accepted what was given and realize the grass is not always greener on the other side. Bitonio took the deal. I'd expect Kirksey as well. When more valuable players than Pryor come along needing to be extended , these situations can be used as reference points that the Browns FO can attach appropriate value to a player that meets, or even exceeds, the market.

I see the FO dilemma in going this route. I'm not sure we want to send that message to our young players we drafting right now. It shows we pay the bucks for FA's of the same caliber and capabilities to come here but not to keep the players we drafted or traded for that are now Clev. veterans.