DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Front Office...continued

Oh Crow and Duke will each have over 1000 yards rushing and add another 15tds. Browns fans won't know what hit them!!!

Now you're just being silly.

Haha!

Just another sign of

Brett Martel of the Associated Press reports restricted free agent CB Malcolm Butler will visit the Saints on Thursday.

The news comes straight from Sean Payton. Butler was originally reported to be involved in trade talks which sent Brandin Cooks to New England, but he is not technically under contract because he has yet to sign his first-round tender. That tender gives the Patriots the ability to match any offer sheet and guarantees them a first-round pick if they decline, but it is possible the two teams skip the offer sheet process altogether and work out a trade if the Saints and Butler come to terms. New England sent New Orleans the No. 32 overall pick as part of the Cooks deal, but the Saints would owe their own No. 11 overall pick if they sign Butler to an offer sheet, which is likely a higher price than they are willing to pay. The Boston Herald reports Bulter "wants to make it work in New England," but the big-money signing of Stephon Gilmore all but ensures Butler's days with the Patriots are numbered.

Source: Brett Martel on Twitter Mar 14 - 11:22 AM

You know...........I really don't get that trade on New England's side. I think it was dumb as hell and that the Saints fleeced them.

Malcolm Butler - DB - Patriots

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports restricted free agent CB Malcolm Butler and the Saints have opened contract negotiations.
Rapoport adds the two sides "hope to strike a deal this week." There is really no other reason for Butler to be visiting New Orleans other than to work on a deal, but this is notable nevertheless. The Saints would owe New England the No. 11 overall pick if the Patriots decline to match an offer sheet, but that is likely more than they are willing to pay. The two sides will likely try to work out a trade.

Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter Mar 14 - 12:28 PM

I would tend to agree with U when I consider its Cooks .... he's not an "elite" wr ... then when i look at it from the angle of ... could the Pats have drafted a better player than Cooks at 32 ... I'm not so sure of that ... then when u look at WR's ... no way does one as good as Cooks fall to 32 ...

So ... at first I'm with U ... then i reluctantly have to admit it makes sense ... *shrugs* ..

How?

If the patriots are going all in for Brady's last season, then this trade makes perfect sense.

Give Brady the weapons of Gronk, Edelman, cooks, Floyd, amedola, hogan, Allen, and Mitchell.

With white and Lewis in the backfield. Brady might mess around and put up career numbers if this is his last go at a title.

If this was the browns, I'd hope the FO did the same thing. Trading a first rounder for an insanely talented WR for a title push? Absolutely worth it.

Just my opinion, but I think:

--this is a great draft class w/a ton of very good players in it and a first round pick on a WR is steep.

--I do not think this is Brady's last year. He said he wants to play until he is 45. His body is not breaking down like Manning's.

--I don't think Cooks is an elite WR. He is fast and can get deep, but he is not elite.

--Cooks had 78 catches for 1,173 yards and 8 TDs. Michael Thomas [rookie from Ohio State] had 92 catches for 1,137 yards and 9 TDs. Willie Snead [cut by Browns] had 72 receptions for 895 yards and 4 TDs. Snead missed time because he got hurt.

--Additionally, Cooks had 374 YAC. Thomas had 436 and Snead had 320.

--Cooks is a very good deep threat, but Thomas proved to be a more complete WR.

--New England also has Hogan, who is faster than people think and is also a deep threat. Not in Cook's class, but he gets open deep.

--I don't know..........Cooks is pretty good, but a first round pick seems steep to me for an incomplete WR who is not elite.

Cooks could've been the WR either the patriots specifically wanted, or the only one the saints were willing to let go. Either or, or both is a possibility.

You literally just argued -which I agree, btw- on why would the browns give up crow who is a sure thing, for an unknown in the draft? Now you're arguing the opposite? We know cooks is good. We don't know if any of the WR in the draft will be.

Do you trade for love, or do you draft and keep Wiggins? Known vs unknown, and if you're in the win now mode, you go for the known.

It's all speculation of course, but B.B. Doesn't make these kind of moves without a reason. Remember, Brady said his wife wanted him to retire. He wants to play til 45. What if the deal was one last season and then bounce?

Just giving my opinion, bro. I'm not stomping my feet up and down or anything. LOL

I know, were just having a discussion

What do people consider "throwing deep"?

I look at those passes that are thrown more than 20 yards in the air as being deep passes.

On those passes, last year, Tom Brady went 16-42. (38%)

He is lethal on passes behind the LOS out to 20 yards in the air, but he really drops off after that,

I don't think that Brady has ever been the big time bomber. He has mainly lived in that "up to 20 yard" range for much of his career. He is a guy who gets the ball out of his hand quicker than any other QB int eh NFL.

Kessler plays a similar game. (though Brady does throw very deep more than Kessler, it's not an overwhelming difference) Kessler threw 19 passes of more than 20 yards, and completed 6. He is good on throws from behind the LOS out to 20 yards in the air, but is very ... inconsistent ... on throws deeper than that. He did not throw any of the really deep passes last year. (40+ in the air)

We also had very inexperienced WRs last year, to go along with this particular rookie QB.

Last year we had other QBs who have been guys who throw the ball down the field in the past, in RG3 and McCown.

RG3: RG3 also threw most of his passes short, shorter and shortest. He completed only 4-17 passes thrown more than 20 yards in the air. (and he also stink from 11-290 yards as well) Here are some numbers from when he was more successful: in 2013, he completed only 11 of 49 passes thrown more than 20 yards in the air. Even in his spectacular rookie season, he only threw 35 passes that went 20+ yards in the air, and he completed only 15 of them. (though he did complete a respectable % from 21-30 yards in the air)

McCown threw down the field a fair amount in 2015, but completed very few passes of more than 20 yards last year, and in fact, he struggled with all passes of 11+ yards in the air. However, regarding passes that went more than 20 yards in the air, he completed only 7 of 22 pass attempts.

How much is the QB, and how much is the OL, the receivers, and the play calls?

The NFL is not a "bombs away" league anymore. It is increasingly a "fast decision/fast throw league. However, give a guy superior WRs, and an outstanding OL, like Prescott had last year, and he has a chance to do better.

I am not saying that Kessler will be a great QB, or maybe not even a starter, but the talk of him barely being a 3rd string QB is ridiculous. He did better than our more experienced QBs did last year. I think that he can improve with a full NFL off-season program. I believe that improving his leg and core strength can help him drive the ball better, and having more experience in the offense can help him make decisions faster. I believe that having a better OL, and more experienced WRs, will also help him. We'll see what happens with his development in training camp. I am not ready to anoint him, and I am not ready to consign him to 3rd strong either. We'll see what happens.

I have answered that question about 100 times. And my point is never just throwing deep, as in throwing the bomb.

Obviously, you don't wanna hear my answer..........so why don't you just ask Hue?

We keep saying it is Tommys Boys last season.



What if it is Billy's last season?


He is at the age where things can go wrong. Maybe he feels it is the time to call it quits for health resons.


Players have a lifespan playing the game. So does a coach.


It is a high stress job that consumes a lot of your time. People don't live forever. Maybe he wants to spend some of the millions he has made before he kicks the bucket?


There comes a point in everybody's life that enough is enough. It's time to take a break.


Who in here WANTS to work until they die?


It seems more plausible to me that Bill is ready to call it a career.

I would consider 15-30 yards in the air mid-range
30+ deep

But that's just me. I don't know what anyone else thinks

Cooks is barely older than the rookie WR coming in the draft and he has 2800 yards and 20 TDs of NFL experience. I'd say he is worth what the Pats paid for him. Brady loves the small, quick receivers.

Not me, but I believe Belichik will Lieutenant Dan it and need to be dragged off the NFL sideline or die on the sidelines before he gives it up.


j/c...
Brady will play 3 more years. The Patriots are long term planners, not short term. There is no all-in for Brady's final ride. The Pats are just getting better. Pencil them in for another SB.

To me there are a couple of different "deep passes".

There are those that fly a lot way down the field. IMHO, any pass that does more than 20 yards down the field are ont rype of deep pass. Another are the longer out, the throws to the sidelines.

So many people hate stats ..... but that can be useful.

ESPN's stats show more than many other sites do. They show throws to various depths of the field, passes thrown various distances in the air, and so forth.

They show passing stats to the left and right sides, sidelines, and to the middle of the field. Kessler completed 65-77% of taxes from the left side of the field to the right sideline. His difficulties were to the left sideline, where he fell off to only 27/50.

People rightly talk about how getting the ball out quickly, and with strong throws, on out routes (especially) is very important. This is absolutely true. Some believe that a QB's ability to deliver these throws is locked in when he enters the NFL. They believe that whatever a QB can do when he walks into his 1st training camp is it. He will never get stronger, outside of improving mechanics. I happen to believe that a QB can gain some "strength" on his throws. I think that a QB can do certain exercises that can speed up his arm to some degree. Is it a huge difference? Probably not a huge difference, but I think that there can be a difference. I also think that a QB can strengthen himself by strengthening his legs are core.

How much stronger will it make him? I'm not 100% sure, but it's probably "some". Kessler is never going to turn into Brett Favre. However, I do think that he can improve the speed/velocity of his throws by strengthening his body, and do the same things that Brady did to improve his "arm strength".

I am reminded of Tom Brady's picture from the combine. I think that few would argue that he improved his strength as his career went along. He has a specific program that he does, that doesn't work specifically (or only) on the strength in his arm muscles alone, but in the "flexibility" of his muscles. It sure seems to work for him.

Tom Brady is not Brett Favre either. He is never going to drop down to one knee, and fire off a 60 yards pass. However, he has enough arm to make throws to everything 20 yards and under, and to the sidelines. His accuracy is incredible, as is his processing speed. He puts this all together, and gets the ball out in a ridiculously short amount of time. I think that this is an area where Kessler can improve. He seemed to do this (to an extent) right off the bat, but then seemed to slow down as the year progressed.

Anyway, I think that Kesler can improve. Now whether or not it will be enough that he can become a capable starter or a star QB, remains to be seen. I think that he has room to improve, and that has the potential, at least, to be a solid starter.

I do not think Kessler is a viable starter. I think he is a back-up qb.

I don't think that he has the necessary arm strength to make all the throws in the route tree and he proved that last year. Hue commented on it several times and if anyone would know, it would be Hue.

The Browns were 4th in the entire NFL in rushing. New England came in w/a plan that other teams copied. Take away the run game and dare Kessler to challenge your defense w/tougher throws, such as fades, deeper outs, and the deeper parts of intermediate throws.

The run game disappeared. The Browns were forced to dink and dunk their way down the field. They typically would have one good drive a half. For the most part, the offense was stagnant. The defense was giving up points at an alarming rate and the Browns were in a terrible position in the second half of many games. Teams unleashed their pass rushers in those games and the Brown's OL took the brunt of the blame.

Hue came out publically and said we had to challenge defenses w/what they were giving us. He called for deeper routes. We tried, but were rarely successful. Kessler took more sacks as held the ball too long as you could see him hesitate because he didn't even want to attempt some of the more challenging throws. Once again, the OL got blamed. We even had a few posters blaming Hue for putting poor, little Cody in such a bad situation. LOL

Frankly, I hope that Kessler never starts a regular season game again for the Browns. It was painful to watch.

Agreed. I like Cody and feel he has the mind to play the game but is limited physically. Brock has the physical tools but not the head to play it. Too bad we couldn't combine the 2.

Couch/Holcomb
Quinn/DA
Weeden/McCoy
Hoyer/Manziel

We're really good at it actually.

Your right Guy. Well, at least we're good at something!!!

mac, good post.

And w/all due respect.......I do not think [wait.......I know] that arm strength can not be significantly improved once a guy reaches this level.

Cody has some really good attributes. He's smart. He has good accuracy. He is a timing passer. He throws w/some anticipation.

But mac, he can't challenge a defense. Teams just dare him to beat them on the tougher throws. They shut down the running game. They force us to dink and dunk and it an exercise in futility.

I think Cody can improve on his decision making, his reads, his pocket presence, his ability to get rid of the ball quicker, etc.......but that arm ain't ever gonna be an adequate NFL arm.

Now...........I could be wrong. But, at least I try and justify my opinion w/real skill set analysis rather than just saying something like "Jimmy G will suck because he is a backup for New England." LOL

I thought this thread of Tweets by Aaron Schatz, the founder of Football Outsiders, was very interesting:



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842097505735135232



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842097648861614080



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842097904638660609



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842098317509201924



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842098574951383041



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842098712692293632



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842098861724340224



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842099185696534528



https://twitter.com/FO_ASchatz/status/842101628907991048

Know what you don't know.

These three are key.

I think QB is harder to project due to the spread offenses in college, but that doesn't change the thread that is being woven by those 3 tweets.

I was hoping the Browns would extend Bitonio at some point and address the OL in FA rather than this year's draft.

I am very pleased by what the Browns did in regards to the OL this off-season.

In fact, I have an almost a polar opposite opinion of the FO this year in regards to how they are dealing w/the OL than I did last year at this time.

Vers, I remember an article in Muscular Development magazine back in 1973, 1974, that spoke about exercises you could do to strengthen the arm for passing a football. I don't remember the exercises but I remember the article because there was a picture of Mike Phipps back to pass with Joe Greene bearing down on him. I don't know if doing the exercises actually worked but I do remember the article.

Yes Homes, you can improve your arm strength. However, it's next to impossible to improve it significantly. Especially given the fact that Kessler played at USC. That is a top collegiate program. They have the resources to get the latest technology and hire premium talent to help their players.

Heck, we did all kinds of things at the freaking high school level to improve arm strength and this was in 1990s.

With Kessler, we aren't talking about some 13 year old kid on the sandlot.

J/C

I think a lot of people confuse improving arm strength with reaching whatever your natural potential is. I think people at times haven't reached that potential, and can get there with work. I hear it a lot in regards to bat speed. While an individual can get his swing faster than what it is now, there is a point beyond which they can't go, no matter what they do.

Exactly what I thought. If you could improve it significantly everyone would be doing it with success. We know that's not the case.

Good post mac.

Tony Jefferson signed with the Ravens, for, 4 years 36 million, giving up 1.5 million more per year offered by the Browns.
That's 10.5 per year. various reports.


What is the BROWNS' next best option at safety, and defensive backs in general, given the attempt to land someone with a large payday, that didn't pan out.

I'm not sure where the story that Cleveland would cut Os if they can't trade him came from. I never heard anyone from the organization say that. I think it was originally reported that they traded for the pick and 'could' cut him and still be ahead in the deal. Then someone replaced 'could' with 'would' and the story has never died.

Maybe the same source that said Cleveland was interested in Geno Smith. Smith's agent?