DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum JG - Chapter 8

No offense but criteria like that are meaningless in the face of a unique and very rare situation.

Your not going to trade for a franchise level QB for less than a first rounder. It would be more honest if you just said you don't want him then to say, "Only if he doesn't cost too much." A first rounder is nothing to pay for a potential starting level QB.

Your honest opinion is that you don't think JG is a starting caliber QB. Just be honest and be done with it rather than making up weird criterias devoid of any relevance. You're free to have your own opinions even if we don't agree with them. I just don't like it when people talk sideways to avoid taking a stand on what they truly think.

My positions are always VERY clear =) People might not like them but at least they know when I say something I mean it

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/03/bob_kraft_defers_jimmy_garoppo.html#incart_m-rpt-2

Bob Kraft defers Jimmy Garoppolo trade decision to Bill Belichick; now what for Browns?

PHOENIX -- Patriots owner Bob Kraft was asked at the NFL Annual Meeting here Monday if he'd trade Jimmy Garoppolo under any circumstances, and he didn't slam the door shut on it.

Instead, he deferred the matter to coach Bill Belichick, who's slipping out of the meetings to embark on a scouting trip and won't be around tomorrow to field Garoppolo questions at the optional coaches breakfast. AFC coaches will hold court on Tuesday and NFC coaches on Wednesday.

"I don't have the right demeanor of our coach," Kraft said. "I charge him to handle all football matters. We're privileged to have the greatest quarterback in the history of the game (Tom Brady), and it looks like he's playing pretty solid. He's off the charts, in my opinion, and we're lucky to have him. That's the most important position on the team, needless to say. I don't think anyone can say you have too much depth at that position. I charge him to make those decisions, Bill, and I'll leave that with him."

Kraft did offer this nugget, that Brady assured him in the last two or three days that was "was willing to play for six or seven more years'' despite turning 40 in August.

ESPN's Adam Schefter has been adamant in reporting that Belichick will not trade Garoppolo under any circumstances, but sources tell cleveland.com it won't stop the Browns from inquiring.

But the conversation won't be owner-to-owner, Jimmy Haslam told cleveland.com and a small group of Browns writers here Monday. He deferred such talk to head of football operations Sashi Brown, who will meet with the group on Tuesday. Hue Jackson will also speak at the coaches breakfast Tuesday morning.

"We can't comment on any of that,'' Haslam said. "Any question like that should be addressed to ... I certainly won't talk to Robert (Kraft) about it so that's a Sashi question. I think you all know we can't comment on any players under contract with any teams.''


Jimmy Garoppolo and the Cleveland Browns
Haslam stressed that the club is continuing to work on solving the quarterback conundrum. If the Browns can't land Garoppolo, they might inquire about trading for Bengals quarterback AJ McCarron, whom Jackson coached and likes. McCarron has made it clear he wants to be traded, but one source close to the situation doubts that Bengals owner Mike Brown would trade him to his AFC North foes and execute the first-ever trade between the two rivals.

"We have three guys on our roster (Cody Kessler, Kevin Hogan and Brock Osweiler) who we'll coach and coach hard,'' Haslam said. "We'll continue to explore all other opportunities. I think y'all are meeting with Hue and Sashi and you guys should cover that with them because they're working at it every day. The organization understands the importance.''

The Browns will still try to trade for Garoppolo

In addition to kicking the tires on veteran quarterbacks, the Browns are considering drafting one of the top college prospects in the first two rounds of the draft. They are Mitch Trubisky, Deshaun Watson, Patrick Mahomes and DeShone Kizer. The Browns have conducted private workouts with Mahomes and Kizer, and will host Trubisky for a private workout at their facility on Friday. They'll conduct a private workout with Watson soon.

The Browns have the first, 12th, 33rd and 52nd overall picks.

No, but you can't be dismissive of the concern of how little mileage you may get out of him after such a trade.

Let's say we give up our #12 in return for JG. He plays for us for 1 season and then he needs to be signed to a contract and then what? Even if he has a good year here, he still has to want to stay here. Will JG then want a top contract? Will he have had a season that justifies a top contract? And even if we do extend a good offer, what do we do if another team offers him seriously stoopid money?

What if he leaves? Was one decent season with JG worth passing on a 1st Rd talent that we could have had for at least 4 years?

I'm not saying either way if he's worth a 1st Rd pick, cuz honestly I don't know. But I do think there is a legit concern about the future. If we were talking about getting JG with 2 seasons left on his contract, I think giving up a 1st would be more palatable and easier to swallow.

I am not floundering at all. I am telling you that the criteria you invented is ridiculously rigid and transparent.

There is no way we trade for him unless it's also with a new contract and make him a top paid QB. The fact they keep pursuing him means they have already watched the film and deem him worth it.

The only real question is whether Bill will part ways with him and gamble that Tom will last, as long as, he says he will. They drafted JG to replace Tom but its not anyone's fault that Tom is still playing lights out at this point in his career.

What matters is that we convert this situation into us finally getting the franchise QB we need. Even if he only has 2 NFL games it shows he could do in the NFL what he did in college. I mean this guy is ultra sharp in how he dissects a defense and is deadly accurate with his throws. Yet, he is still brave enough to throw it deep and give his guys a chance to make a play. He is also smart enough to throw it away when there is no play to be had.

With his skill set it not IF he will become a star its just a matter of WHERE. I hope its in Cleveland because I am sick of watching us pass on a stud because it might be expensive. I am also tired of watching bad pick after bad pick made on crappy QB prospects I know won't make it even before they are drafted because they reached for a QB out of desperation. JG is the real deal and is worth what it takes to get him short of losing out on Garrett. Hell give them the entire draft class from 12 on down. Just get him in here.

Well, and that's the crux isn't it? We can't make signing a contract with us as a stipulation of the trade.

Now, thinking outside the box...

What if we somehow convinced NE to basically broker a contract with him in our stead? If NE signs him to a legit starter contract ( a contract essentially structured and offered by us), they could then trade him and that contract to us right?

What would be the pros to this:

1) The Browns now get a multi-year return on that 1st Rd investment. The problem of trying to sign him after 1 season is now solved.

2) NE can now ask for more in the trade

3) JG gets his payday 1 season earlier than he would have otherwise.

BUT...

Would the league sanction such a deal? Does the FO view JG favorably enough to offer the type of contract JG would want/command so soon? Would what NE gets in return be worth it to them to do the Browns and JG a solid like that?

I have seen nothing to indicate the Browns have pursued Garoppolo at all, let alone again.

The Browns have been extremely tight lipped and have not tipped their hand on any moves. Purely media speculation.

j/c

Is there anything in NFL rules or even common practice that, once a trade had been agreed between teams, that the receiving team isn't allowed to talk to the player (and/or agent) before closing the deal? I would think that it might be a courtesy a team could request, or even stipulate.

Stating things that aren't true to support your case is floundering.

You are resorting to calling me a liar?

Have a good one.

Uh.

Teams trade players, that sign new deals with their new teams, all the time.

Unless Jimmy G takes the Cousins route, and wants to "bet" on himself in 2017, in which that case we just franchise him. And then work out a long term deal.

Something something, rocket surgery.

Resigning is easily made a part of the trade. I don't know what everyone is thinking about but it happens in trades all the time. The day they trade for him they will already have his new contract ready. This is probably the main thing holding things up atm vs draft pick compensation.

versatile, i think criteria are by definition fairly rigid. if they are not rigid they are more like recommendations or suggestions. i think the failure of backups to have success when traded is interesting but each situation, each quarterback, is unique. generally a backup is a backup because he lacks certain skills. in jg's case it may be he is a backup not because he lacks some skill but because he is behind the best ever. so if our qb evaluators think he can be our franchise guy we should go for him for a reasonable price.

that does lead to the conundrum. a reasonable price, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. that is probably the major difference of opinion, what is a reasonable price to pay. i do not want bb to fleece us. he has as much need to make the trade as we do. one question for those who think jg can be our franchise qb. did you think he was a franchise qb when he came out four years ago? and if you did not, what has he done to change your opinion?

Yes I wanted him where we got Johnny.

Nice post, keith.

First of all, let me say that jfan made up his own criteria. I doubt the validity of his criteria. This is not similar to the criteria from a guy like Bill Parcells, it's from a poster on a message board putting all kinds of qualifiers on it. Btw.......Jimmy G checked all four of Parcells' boxes.

I will not pretend to know what Jimmy G is actually worth in a trade. That will be up to NE and the team who wants to trade for him. My knowledge of such things is limited and I won't make any brash statements.

I have said all along that if the Browns truly believe that he is a franchise qb who can give them 10+ years of good qb play, then it is hard to say what he is worth. The Browns have not had one single good qb since their rebirth and have been searching for that guy for years.

I had a high grade on Jimmy G when he was in college. Loved his skill set. IU did prefer Teddy over him, though. I still feel much the same way about Jimmy G as I did then, but I think my opinion of him has slightly improved because of comments from Belichick himself and his teammates.

Furthermore, the hardest part about evaluating collegiate qbs is how well they are going to read defenses pre-snap, coverages post-snap and how quickly they can go through their progressions.

It's a small sample size, but Jimmy G showed that he was very good in that area and BB himself said something like that it was a seamless transition from Brady to Jimmy G.

I have no problem if people want to disagree w/his skill set. We all have our opinions, but I think it is narrow-minded and biased to say things like "he'll suck because Cassell sucks." Or, "he isn't good because he is a back-up qb."

I hope I answered your questions.

A Hue Jackson quote caught me as interesting:


Link

Sounds to me like he may have let slip his interest in Jimmy G or his lack of belief in the draft class/the guys we've got.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

I imagine Hue has a "top 3" that may go something like: Garoppolo, Trubisky, Mahomes, so his statement could be reflective of that. (Of course his actual top three are anybody's guess.) It seems fairly clear that the opportunity to land one of them is there, but the guarantee to land his top choice is not. Sadly, the weak QB class muddies the water. In a typical year with a solid QB class, having the #1 pick would make the choice obvious. It's such a typically "Browns" set of circumstances.

So true cal which is why I say we will have a good enough season to make trading up next season not feasible. Because that is also a typical Browns situation =)

I think within the Patriots - and with Brady taking team friendly contracts continually, and being a pretty selfless football player - it would be really difficult for JG to be too much about him, him, him.

I heard a very interesting segment on 850am today - the 1-3 show and they were talking to someone from Cinci and about McCarron. They mentioned how even as a young QB that stepped in for a couple games back when Dalton was hurt - he really carried himself well, players responded/respected him. He also had a conversation along the lines of - if you want to trade me I would be happy as I think I can start in the NFL. However he said it, it was in a pretty positive way .... maybe JG has had that sort of conversation? .... that interview today softened me on AJ a little. If that's Hue's guy I'd be willing to roll with him. Hue should know him well enough.... but I prefer JG!

Send the #12 this year, our second #2 next year, swap 4ths this year, two jelly donuts, and a six pack of beer for...JG & Butler.

I would do something like that. Garoppolo and something else [good] would be worth the 12th pick.

Just to be clear, I am not saying Garoppolo is not good. Just that in order to give up the twelfth pick I would want an asset in addition to Garoppolo (who might be good).

Hmmm...very interesting. I had never considered Butler being included in a JG deal. Thought provoking, certainly...

I don't think Butler would work, he would also be under contract for only one year (after he signs his second round tender). So that would be two players we would have to sign to extensions if the trade proposed by WSU Willie was made.

And it would cost a hell of a lot more than 12 and a 2nd.

I think you are underestimating the value of the 12th pick in this draft.

j/c:

We can't use the 12th pick on Jimmy G because "he might be good," but we can use it on a collegiate player who "might be good."

Less risk with collegiate player.

Hence the donuts and beer...but yes...I think you are correct.

I'm really not sure how being the 5th QB taken in the draft, a 2nd round pick too, and sitting on the bench for 3 years and getting injured in your 3rd and final game appreciates his value to a top 15 pick. Then again, I might just be crazy.

Less risk financially. High risk if you're the FO or coach and he flops. But I guess that could go both ways trading for QB too.

I wonder if the Browns measured the approximate value of all QB's who have ever been back ups (The Drew Stantons, Big Bens, Carson Palmer, and Tom Brady of the worlds) to find an estimated approximate value of Jimmy G and then compared that to the eav of the #12 pick.

Because he's managed to be in the league and stick around in a position where people move around constantly.

The fact that he is on a talent-rich roster in a highly competitive environment and has stuck around says a lot.

I think including 2 jelly donuts is too much. I would go one jelly donut or 2 donuts with no filling. But that's it.

Are the two donuts w/o filling glazed or just have that powder sprinkled on top? Sorta important....

I would make that conditional based on number of games started in 2018

Thanks, now I'm hungry.