DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Front Office...continued...

Bottom line.
I understand why people feel the way they do.
Watching this debacle of a franchise since the return has been very difficult. but we are around one calendar year of this regime. I know it is hard to separate their mistakes from previous regimes but nobody or regime is perfect.
NE is close, but they too have had their share of mistakes. They are able to overcome them die to the fact that they have BB & TB.

I just choose to give the FO a chance before they are run out of town. Maybe that makes me an ass kisser, I don't think so but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Fear not my friends 2017 will bring us another year of frustration and 2 brand new ways never seen of how games are lost.

Peace.

I believe there are actually three camps currently posting in regards to our FO.

Really only one, mac, who I believe is firmly against the FO.

The second one is those who will excuse the FO for anything and everything.

And the third are those who evaluate each move the FO makes and evaluates those moves on an independent basis.

I'm in the third category which I believe many are.

You see, last year was the first season that most of these FO guys ever held their respective positions. As such, mistakes were to be expected IMO. But as experience is gained, I expected to see improvements.

I believe that is exactly what I'm seeing at this point. They signed Jamie Collins to a four year deal. They saw the poor draft at the OL positions and as such, looked to the FA market to bolster the OL.

Logical moves IMO. I believe there's reasons to give this regime more time. Where I draw the line seems to be where you are. I don't have faith in this FO because not enough time has passed to build that. However, I do believe they need to be given a chance.

Without some continuity you'll never have the chance to stop the constant roster turnover to build a system. Yet in the same breath, you don't simply cling to something that obviously isn't working simply for the sake of continuity. So it is a balancing act.

But so far, I see reasons to stick with this regime in order to get to a point where we know the difference. I'm far more encouraged going into this season than last. If that trend continues, we may have just what we need to build our Browns.

This draft will be a huge factor in their "grade" over their first two years. I still get a little queasy when I think about their (FO & Coach) ability to evaluate QBs. I mean passing on Wentz for RG3 & Kessler? Really? Feels like I just ate a greasy cat burger. Now we're hanging our hats on them to get it right in one of the weakest QB classes in while. Lord help us all.

While I didn't spell it out directly as you have, that's one of the big reasons that I distinguished the difference in "giving them a chance" and "having faith in them". I'm not sure of your thought process on this, but my fear is they will reach in a poor QB draft class.

I also believe the jury is still far from being in on last years draft class. Players grow and mature so I believe we'll have a much better feel for last years draft this season.

But if they reach and draft a QB early, their future with the Browns will surely rest with that selection.

My thought process goes something like this: I like Trubisky as the top QB, but I want Garrett at #1. If they take Trubisky at #1, I'll consider it a big reach, but I'll understand why they did it because I'll be assuming they consider him the best overall, and can't take the chance that he'll be there at #12, or even #5.

If they take any other QB in the first, I will absolutely hate it, and think they've blown the pick altogether. In other words, no way in hell would I support taking Watson, Kizer or Mahomes higher than the second round. If for some reason they can't get Trubisky, I'd be okay with either Watson or Mahomes in the second, but of the two, I'd rather have Mahomes. Granted, that's just my thinking, and I have no idea what they're thinking, I just know that I wouldn't take Watson or Mahomes in the first, or Kizer in the first two.

I have a feeling they will take one of the four in the first two rounds, so that may take Webb, Peterman and Kaaya out of play, unless there's some sort of crazy run where a bunch of teams reach ridiculously. I don't think that will happen, but you never know.

mac,

The statement we are calling you on is where you said the Browns were trying to trade Joe Thomas. The article(s) that you posted actually say the opposite, that it was the Broncos that came to the Browns. The Browns did not actively try to move any players (paraphrasing from Farmer).

You posting those articles only proves the point against you.

The Browns did not try to trade away Joe Thomas, the Broncos tried to trade for Joe Thomas.

Normally, nobody would care about this; but the distinction is important for this "discussion" you insist on having where you say that the FO does not care about retaining it's own talent (and also for the discussion that you present your opinions as fact).

If you call me up and say you want to buy my car and I say, Fine, I'll take $100K for it.. and you say that's way too much... and I say OK, well that's the deal... and you say no thanks, I didn't try to sell my car.. but everything is for sale/trade if somebody is willing to significantly overpay.

...and Ray says: "I'd better clear this with Mac first"...

Don't take my post above as criticism, mac, for it is not. Simply trying inject a bit of humor...

I won't write what I feel like stating about this thread. Instead I'll say this.

Mac, you've been put in place as the GM of the Browns. You've publicly stated the highest priority you have as GM is the retention of your best players. First call you get is from the 49ers. They are desperate for a LT and offer every pick in this year's draft. THAT'S 4 Picks in the top 109. Plus a bunch more. 6 picks in the top 149.. plus some.

Let's assume you either stick to your guns or play hard ball and they offer you their top 6 picks this year and a 2nd and a 3rd rounder from next year.

What do you do?

If you don't trade Joe Thomas your an idiot.
If you trade him your a hypocrite.

Not only are you talking about FARMER for chrissakes. You're trying to say that talking to other teams when they inquire about a trade is bad. I think the idea that you don't pick up the phone - or simply so "No" when asked about what it would take to trade a player ... is one of the most bizarre opinions I have ever heard. It's a business. Every player is for sale. Even Brady would be traded in his prime if a team offered enough.... it might be every pick for multiple years, but there is a price.

The phone conversation you set up above (as I also remember it from those same articles) tells me that the Browns did NOT try to trade away Joe Thomas.

If they had been trying to trade JT, they would've been the ones calling the Broncos. Maybe it's splitting hairs, but you asked and I answered.

Are you saying that, because the Browns didn't immediately hang up the phone when the Broncos said 'Joe' and 'Thomas' after each other, that they were actively trying to trade him? That makes no sense.

Further (if previously mentioned articles are to be believed), the price that the Browns were asking for was astronomical. A #1, additional high pick(s), and a very good LB'er is more than many are willing to pay for Garrapolo, who (if available), would be our best bet at getting a franchise QB this offseason.

"Hi, Sashi? Am I pronouncing it right? It's John Elway, two time Super Bowl winner and Browns killer with the Denver Broncos. I'm wondering if you'd be willing to talk trade for Joe Thom--"

Click.

"Hello? Hello? I think the somnabitch hung up."

Made me laugh.

I'll admit that that conversation would be gratifying (for reasons that you alluded to in your post), I would be VERY worried if our main FO guy was taking that type of approach.

I know, but cartoonishly funny.

90% of what you read in the media is either factually wrong, incomplete, or only presents one side of the story. The reader doesn't always know that and it's human nature to immediately believe what you read. You have to be intelligent enough to realize this. Not to mention just about anyone off the street can create an article these days.

Close to the facts? What facts where those? Your make believe phone conversation is a prime example of what you do....try and pass off your opinion as fact.

I'm sure (insert organization) has called the Browns about the #1 pick. Can I make up a phone conversation too to illustrate the Browns hate Myles Garrett?

In your article there isn't even a quote from the agent say inghe had significant trade talks with Denver? I read a bunch of "colds"


Here is one from the writer...."His agent wouldn’t be opposed to a trade, but Thomas seems to be content in Cleveland."



This quote is not from the agent, but the writer. I don't doubt the Broncos contacted the Browns.....that doesn't mean the Browns want to trade him. You pass that off as fact....remember the Hue Jackson quote about the Joe Thomas rumors?? Shall I post that?

Shame on you for posting that article insinuating the Browns want to trade Thomas.

WOW, that didn't confirm anything other than his agent woudln't be opposed.... Geez

True. It was not a quote from the agent...

Would u feel better if I welcomed him to the board first ... *L* ...

He took some shots ... hes a big boy ... he knew what he was potentially opening himself up for .... with his choice of adjectives one could almost say he was asking for it ... i did the nice thing and obliged him ...



If u figure it out my ma's gonna wanna have a chat with u ....



I'll admit I'm laughing and a lot more jovial than I was when the game day forums were up .... *LOL* ... although our play did give me plenty of laughs this year ...

With a week and half remaining until draft day, 2017, the pressure is building on the Browns front office/draft team...to get it right!

Below is an interesting article


AS RUMORS SWIRL, THE BROWNS' PICK AT NO. 1 HAS NFL AND OTHER TEAMS CONCERNED

Mike FreemanNFL National Lead Writer
April 14, 2017
link

"I feel sorry for them."

That's how the conversation started with a longtime NFL team executive this week. Sympathy in the NFL is not a common currency. Sympathy is seen as a weakness. Sympathy is for suckers. Sympathy is a currency for losers.

He was talking about the Cleveland Browns.

They have been so awful, so frustratingly putrid, that we have reached a point where this No. 1 pick for the Browns isn't just one of the most important in franchise history. It's one of the most important in the history of the NFL.

There's a feeling among owners and league office personnel that they can't have a team stink so badly and be the butt of so many jokes, and not have an effect on the entire NFL.

I've heard half-joking references from front office executives that the league should take over the Browns temporarily and have the team run by a committee of Jerry Jones, Robert Kraft and union head DeMaurice Smith. Though it was said mostly in jest, I think some of these execs are serious.

The No. 1 pick is always important, no matter which team owns it. It can spark a turnaround or leave a team stuck in the mud.

But when it comes to the Browns, there are some in the league who feel Cleveland has to get this right; the NFL can't have one of its teams be a decadeslong laughingstock.

An NFL official posed this question to me: Can a league be truly the gold standard, as the NFL thinks of itself, when one of its teams is a dead, diseased appendage? Read that last part again—a dead, diseased appendage.

The historical importance of this draft is not lost on the Browns. That may be why, according to various team sources, the divide between the coaches and front office is fairly extensive. It's not unusual for coaches and front offices to disagree, but the gap in Cleveland this year is fairly significant.

One scout told me that coach Hue Jackson wants a quarterback at No. 1 and the front office wants Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett. But ESPN's Adam Schefter has tweeted that it appears Jackson is leaning toward Garrett. He also reported that the team hasn't made up its mind on whom to pick.

On Wednesday night, I was told the Browns are strongly considering trading out of the first spot and taking quarterback Mitchell Trubisky later in the round.

Smoke screens abound, sure, and what's happening depends on the day and to whom you speak. But there is more smoke than a forest fire when it comes to the Browns.

The Cleveland front office, I can say with certainty, feels a great deal of pressure to get this one right. And not just the normal amount of pressure a team feels with having the top pick, either. The weight of Browns flubbed drafts in the past weigh on this regime. Consider the last two times Cleveland had the No. 1 pick: It selected quarterback Tim Couch in 1999 and defensive end Courtney Brown in 2000. Neither had sustained success in Cleveland.

Many franchises, across the NFL, and all of sports, have had stretches of horrid play and drafts. The Raiders went through horrible stretches. The Buccaneerswere once so awful they were called the Yuccaneers. The Bears haven't been great. Neither have the Jets.

But the Browns enjoy a special place in the chronicles of football ineptitude. The Jets won a Super Bowl, even if it was in 1969. The Buccaneers also have a Lombardi Trophy. The Raiders have a history matched by few and recently have transformed their franchise. The Bears have a Super Bowl and had arguably the best defense of all time in 1985.

The Browns have...they have...hold on a minute...thinking...something will come to me.

The Browns have history—pre-Super Bowl history. They had the greatest player of all time in Jim Brown, but no team, maybe in all of sports, has had their kind of bad luck, particularly in the draft. This is a team that selected Johnny Manziel, one of the great draft busts ever.

The year before the Manziel selection may have been worse. ESPN ranked the team's 2013 draft—led by LSU defensive end Barkevious Mingo at No. 6—as the 19th-worst of all time. I'd rank it higher.

One of the most stunning draft statistics comes via ProFootballTalk.com, which tracks players and the teams offering fifth-year options (meant to keep valued rookies). Of all the first round selections from the 2014 draft, only two are no longer in football: Browns picks Manziel and Justin Gilbert.

The point is clear: There are plenty of ways to illustrate the Browns' ineptitude in the draft. But this year, their sorry history in April has drawn the attention of other teams and the league office.

There's a sense throughout the league that this is a turning point in the franchise's history.

This draft goes well, the thinking goes, and it can all turn around quickly. If it goes poorly, the Browns will continue to be an anchor on the league.

"I feel sorry for them."

If they blow this, we all will.



Mike Freeman covers the NFL for Bleacher Report. Follow him on Twitter: @mikefreemanNFL.

Taylor Gabriel was clearly a guy that could have been kept. No question. Same with Schwartz.

Gabriel wasn't offered anything (at least I don't think so) so in hindsight, that was a mistake.

Schwartz was offered a contract and he chose to look elsewhere. Sounds to me like the Browns didn't want him to do that. They pulled the offer, so they had control over that.

With Mack, we offered a very lucrative contract, but anyone with a brain knew that Mack wanted out. I'm not sure what we could have offered him to make him stay. Not something this regime could control.. That was set up by Farmer.

Pryor took a one year show me deal after turning down a lucrative offer from the Browns. Not something I think the Browns should be ashamed of at all.

So when you really break it down, the only one that the Browns didn't attempt to keep was Gabriel.

That's it.

I really wish you'd recognize that. Picking on the current FO is perfectly fine with me. But at least pick on them for something real.. Not these half baked stories.

BB - watch and learn ... I'll explain ... last post was step 1 .. he set the direction with insults ... I responded in kind ...

Now he's set a new course ... watch me respond in kind ....



Agree 100% ... last year was BEYOND BRUTAL ... even if we win our first game earlier in the season ... for me at least it would have made the season a lot less stressful .... i really wanted 1 win ... i knew we were going to stink ... my prediction was 2 maybe 3 wins with 4 as our cieling ..

I also agree about no FO or regime being perfect ... witch makes it harder for me to understand why some just can't admit the FO made a mistake on MS .... its really really simple ...

- we made MS an INITIAL offer and it ended up being the best one he got from anyone ..
- MS goes and test the market ... we told him offer would be pulled if he did ...
NO MISTAKES YET ...
- he finds out the market he wanted isn't there ...
- he comes back to find the offer had been pulled ...
NO MISTAKES YET ... we have to pull the INITIAL OFFER like we said we would ...

We tell him the doors closed ... u don't even have a serious discussion with the guy ...

BIG MISTAKE .... the only way this isn't a HUGE MISTAKE is IF u have another RT on the ROSTER ready to step in ..... oooops ....

How was our RT play last year .... u feeling good about RT this year or are u holding your breath .... i know witch camp I'm in ... *L* ... and this isn't hindsight being 20/20 ... a bunch of us KNEW NOT EVEN TRYING WAS STUPID THEN .... and our worst fear were founded and may carry over into this year ... we still don't know if we filled the hole ...

I've said it before in this thread ... its OK ... as u said .. EVERYONE makes mistakes ..

I don't blame these guys for Mack, Gipson or Benji .... IMO those guys are on the old regime ... these guys had a slim to none shot at signing any of them ... and slim maybe exxagerating those odds .... MS on the other hand .. he's at least worth a DISCUSSION after he tested the market ...



No ... it don't make u an ass kisser anymore than me saying that this FO made a HUGE MISTAKE on MS makes me irrational or a troll .....

I do not like this FO ... i think they will FAIL .. i am also fair .. they deserve time to make there own bed .. three years from now ... we'll know a lot more ... I HOPE I'M WRONG ... so far my INITIAL thoughts ...

- LOVE THE PLAN ... said it during the year ... love how they approached it ... and the negativity we saw during the year has been replaced with UNBRIDLED OPTIMISM the likes of this board has never seen .... u being new here,you'll just have to trust me ... *LOL* ...

The execution of the plan will be the key .... its all about TALENT EVALUATION/AQUISITION .... if they do a good job with all the picks and cash we have ... that optimism will stay and good times are ahead ... if not it's the same ole same ole ...

- two major mistakes so far ...

MS and I don't want to mention the other one right now cause it will change the direction of the discussion ... again, you'll just need to trust me on that one ... *L* ...

STAY TUNED ....

BB was that better .... ... *L* ...

I liked Gabriel, and I would have liked to have retained him, but when your new HC who it is said prefers his WR's to be over the 6'00" mark inherits a roster who's first 4 (maybe even 5?) WR's are all 5'09" and below... the writing has to be on the wall for them. If you're a player hoping to be the exception to the "rule", then you have to show the ability to justify being the exception. I just don't think he had shown at that point in his career enough to be that exception for Hue, especially when he's trying to build a team from the ground up in a specific image.

Shocker .... incorrect info given out by DaMan ... glad i was sitting down ...

Gabriel was CUT ...

Cue the sarcastic apology ... *LOL* ...

So our image doesn't include young lighting quick, fast WR's that can score from any where on the field ... GOOD TO KNOW we don't want that ....

He certainly showed the ability last year ...

We had him for all of OTA's i believe but definetly all of TC ... the fact that HUE AND CO COULDN'T SEE HIS TALENT scares the ever living crap out of me cause his QUICKS/SPEED jump off the screen at u .... when he gets the ball in his hands ... u go to the edge of your seat ...

75 did this let the cat out of the bag on the other mistake I think the FO made ... *L* ...

Well ... you've always been a WEE BIT more optomistic than me ....

I'm using my iPad so quoted no text is a pain, but pertaining to Gabriel, we drafted four receivers and had Pryor. It was clear that Hawkins vs Gabriel was the question. Hue went Hawkins, a player he knew from Cincy.

From what I remember, Gabriel didn't have a great camp. He was dropping the ball. In this case, I don't really blame the team, other than maybe we should have just cut Jordan Payton. But Payton missed OTAs for school & you can't blame him for that (and being behind).

Plus Gabriel used to just fall down when the ball got in his hands (from what I remember). Nothing electrifying about it (IMHO)

Well, Hue's preference for taller WR's was mentioned a few times last off season... Glad i was the one to get you up to speed on current events lol I promise I won't let it go to my head

As to MS, the reason you guys don't get more agreement that not re-signing him was this massive, Trump sized, bigly, 'UGE, mistake

is because there have been way too many unsubstantiated claims )about how that went down that have been used as fact to smear the FO as inept as a whole.

If the FO says "Here's our offer, it's very good... but it's also intended to keep you from exploring FA. if you do, we'll pull the offer". Well, how does MS become a victim when he explores FA and the offer is no longer there... like they said?

OR

If the FO says "Here's our offer, it's very good" and MS and his agent have bought in to the hype and are so sure that he can get north of $10mil/year... what if their reply was "That offer is an insult, we're not wasting our time, we're outta here"?

See, the problem I have with the MS mistake crowd is that everyone of you guys is presuming the FO acted in bad faith because they didn't re-extend the offer. There's any number of reasons why it wasn't extended with fault going to either party.

Personally, I think the FO possibly could have been a little more patient with that deal. I don't blame MS for looking around, but I also don't blame the FO for having the attitude of having crap to do. They extend a generous and fair offer. If you take it, we're glad to have you, you belonged here all along. If you don't take it, good luck to you. We've now got to work on the next problem.

I will agree with the assertion if anyone wants to make it that there was some degree of player mismanagement year. I think it has less to do with Sashi being a cry baby, and more to do with a new FO on a condensed timeline trying to evaluate who they have, who they need, who's coming up in the Draft...
IIRC Whitner and Dansby had felt a certain way about not being told sooner their services were no longer needed.

That's just my take though.

I think what some people forget with him (Gabriel) is he had a so-so year last year. Then after the draft, with all these new WR's, what happened? He got hurt couldn't stay on the field and who's supposed to be cut and make room for him? I can see why we let him go. He was hurt and he's short and we just drafted all these other WR's. So yeah hind sight is 20-20 but I can't blame them. Even if they saw the flashes, what good is it if he can't stay on the field. Besides we just drafted these other WR's, so who you gonna keep?

I think your observation over a lack of insight into what happened is spot on. I think we all agree the team was better off with MS staying.

And while I also agree with the idea of the FO being more patient ... we also have to realize this was a new FO and structure. Anytime you get a new regime in any company - president, board members etc - they start off by setting a tone. I would imagine that the FO may have felt the need to be seen to fair but tough. Fair because they put the best offer to our own player - just like they did with Pryor - but firm by not then getting sucked into a Dutch auction or sucker punched and used to drive up a contract with another team.

personally if that's the worst mistake they make in the first 3 years of their running of the team - I'd say it was a very forgivable offense.