DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2017 NFL Season 2017 NFL Draft Gruden Camp

Premieres NOW! Deshaun Watson up now. Trubisky at 9.

I don't know how informative these are, but they are definitely entertaining.

Gruden made Watson stand up to demonstrate how he would be in a huddle while calling out a play. Gruden called out a play (twice), and Watson failed repeating the play on both attempts. It was even more interesting bc the plays werent that difficult.

Trubisky had a good show. I just question his leadership ability. Doesn't seem like a guy that teammates/grown men will rally around. He has this Charli Frye demeanor. Kind of quiet.

There's a lot of info in those shows.

I learned why some teams like Kizer despite his inconsistencies.
Kizer offense huddles up, plays under the center more, he is responsible for audibles (changing protections/changing plays). I didn't realize that he did that much pre-snap work at the LOS.

Did anyone watch them?

Trubs didn't know what or how to hard count. Mahomes got a playcall wrong during the on the field portion and Gruden had to make them huddle up again.

You know what that stuff means to me? Nada. Because they're learning new stuff and they're gonna make mistakes

You know what else?
Even what you see is complete garbage and of no value, whatsoever.
You are only seeing what the editors and producers decided to show you because they felt that it made for "good TV", and you are only seeing it in the context they chose to present it and the context itself was selected because it made for "good TV".
It is "reality" TV -- fabricated drama television for the purpose of entertainment; it isn't a documentary or a scientific journal.

Now this is where we disagree.
If you know what you're looking for and what you are looking at there is definitely value.

When they draw up their plays and talk through what they're looking at and what their reads are...

The fact that Kizer huddles up in his offense at ND...and made reads and audibles at the LOS pre-snap

When Trubs mentions that a certain pass was a pre-snap call all the way....etc

There is certainly value...but you have to know what you're looking at.

I don't know about that, Turk. I've watched a lot of tape on him (not all, but about half his games last year) and he's a leader on the field. The players seems to play for him just fine. I don't see his quiet leadership as a negative. JMHO.

Maybe I am overstating this, but I do have an issue with a QB who is leaving college for the NFL without knowing what a hard count is. I mentioned this before, I have never played QB at any level and I know what a hard count is. It is not some insider secret.

Like WRs who have the dropsies as NFL rookies. there will be those who defend them because they are rookies. I am pretty sure catching the ball is integral to WR success at all levels, and coaches do not wait until the NFL to go over it.

Not sure what your question is reffering to ... if it's watching ND ... I've seen every snap he's taken ... that was much harder to do this year than last .. *L* ...

I know it must have been hard watching the ND games. I watch a lot of cut-ups and those are usually less then 15 minutes and the Kizer cut-ups were a tough watch...and I see what you've been saying about Kelly. Do not like (Kelly).

I meant did anyone watch the Gruden QB series.

and are you seeing the first take, the fifth take, or the thirteenth? How much off-camera talk and direction are you NOT seeing that is going into what you are getting shown??




Again - see above.
You can give some value within a VERY narrow scope as long as you make certain base aszumptions about how what you are being shown was arrived at, but that is all. It is television. Television is not real; you are being spoon fed, and swallowing whole, a sports entertainment production.


Edit: Having to deliberately misspell as.umptions due to the language filter, lol! I need to correct that.

No offense. I don't think you know what I'm talking about when I say there are things that you can glean from Gruden series and that's okay. I'm not going spend time explaining when its obvious to me that you'll just dismiss it.

The series is not going to fabricate information about the QB's offenses nor would they give off screen direction about their offenses to the QBs.

But without a doubt there is knowledge about the prospects that can be gained from watching them.

I'll just take it that you feel you can. No offense taken here, at all.
Just as I don't think you understand what I'm saying in regard to viewers being fed a reality tv-esque production where you cannot truly take ANY of it at face value.

How can they fabricate or 'produce' what reads a QB makes on a given play?

How can they fabricate or produce whether or not a QB is in the huddle during the season?

How can they fabricate or produce what a QBs pre-snap and post snap reads are?

etc...

Based on what you're saying I have no doubt that you don't or can't glean anything from it. But you're speaking for yourself.

[For those that watched] Can we talk about what (if anything) stood out from the QBs during the series at some point during this thread though?

How many takes did they use before they got the take they wanted for piece where the QB explains what his reads are?

If you are referring to him looking at his own film of himself, this is one thing, but if he is being asked to talk about and diagram something ad hoc, that is something else entirely.

Still - even in regard to his own plays.... how cheery-picked are the selection of plays, how much time has he had to prepare what he was going to say in regard to that play, how much prep work did he get to put into the production of his segment?

After that can you fix [censored] Tabor?

to me, watson's inability to lead/vocalize in a huddle was apparent (he's never really done it). Also, Trubisky's coaches really dumbed down their plays (at least based on the clips Gruden showed). There was one sequence where they ran the exact same play like 5 of 6 snaps ... the same, simple read.

None of these guys are ready to be under center in the NFL, maybe until 2019 even

Lol, you think it makes a difference how many takes it took? Does that change in any way shape or form whether or not they had pre-snap or post snap reads? No. Does it change what his progression was on the play? No.

Like I said, you have to know what you're looking for and what you're looking at.

Did you watch the shows? it doesn't sound like because you would know they only talk about their own plays.

Like I said before, they're all learning new things so of course they're gonna make mistakes. Also, when they were on the field he was able to spit out the verbiage therefore if you have an issue with Watson's handling of the verbiage in the film room you should have an even bigger issue with Mahomes messing up the verbiage on the field and having to go back to huddle and say it again.

But for me, I have no issues with the mistakes they made. Its just an illustration of how different the pro game is from the NFL game. And on the flip side it shows the advantage QBs that have that experience have.



I'm not gonna hold what the coaches did against the prospect. Also, you have to remember that play they called has many option built in so more accurately its "1" play but with "3" different ways to execute. And Watson played in similar style offense as Trubs and Mahomes and Webb's offenses were even simpler. (if you want to see head scratching play calls watch some ND)


Some need more work then others. But it all depends on how quickly they can pick up the offense, how well they are coached etc. Those things we can't predict. Look at Cam Newton, Griffin, Dak no one thought they could play as well as they did as rookies. We just don't know. I would agree that some have less history and experience doing what they'll be expected to do in the NFL. If I had to pick QBs that could play early I would say Peterman, Kaaya, Watson, Kelly (but he's a knucklehead off the field). I want to say Kizer based on what he was asked to pre-snap but his confidence might need to be rebuilt. Then you look at the jump Webb made from his college offense to how he looked in the Senior Bowl and it made me think maybe he could make the transition with the right coaching.

For example listen closely to what Mitch says about this 235 Fade RPO at the 11:15 mark.

Tell me what if anything you can learn and how that can be faked or produced or directed off screen or in multiple takes?

What he says isn't all that much - it's just talking about basic knowledge and theory behind that play design, BUT every time you hear his voice but don't see him is editing. Every last second of the audio could be scripted, rehearsed, and recorded multiple times and spliced together. Further more, he could be getting directed on his reads between takes, especially for the two seconds he is on camera. Note how there is a pause in his speech when they cut to putting him on camera - it's a clean spot to cut to a separate read that was done with him on camera - neat & tidy splice point. The breath sound you hear may not even be him... a common trick in audio production when cutting from one source to another is to lay a sound over the cut, and a breath sound at the transition would be a pretty savvy move. Doing all of this would actually be trivial, and entirely normal production work.

The cut then to Gruden asking "what would you do with three receivers..", blah... same thing. Watch it as if you were creating it... every time the camera cuts to a new view is video getting spliced in and audio tracks overlaid. It is all designed to give the viewer the impression that everything is happening synchronously, but it absolutely does NOT even remotely have to be.

Yes, he absolutely could be just talking off the cuff here. And yes, he likely is - afterall, he is talking about himself and things he did, so this is all basic stuff a player would know about what they did and how they were coached to execute..... but, I wouldn't say that it gives you any sort of deep insight AT ALL.

Lol, if you didn't learn anything from that I can't help you. He admitted that on that play he isn't reading anything post snap. He said the read is made pre-snap meaning he's catching the snap and throwing. If that isn't information I can't help you. That's just one example there are tons of other tidbits that again if you know what you're looking for and looking at you can learn about the prospects.

It's completely unaffected by how the show is edited it doesn't change an iota of the info that can be gleaned.

Just watched Kaaya and Dobbs on Gruden camp.

Kaaya has a ton of leadership qualities. If any team can protect him and keep him up right, he will be a force in the NFL. Multiple coaches in multiple seasons, finished it up with Mark Richt who puts his QB's in a pro style offense. Very impressed with him, to the point that thee only QB's I wouldnt mind drafting is Trubisky or Kaaya. I think they can both overcome playing for the team that kills QB's.

Dobbs is impressive, but he'll need a few years to develop. Will have to be put in the perfect situation to overcome the odds. I forget the stat, but he's one of four QB's (Tebow, Manziel, Prescott) to have a certain amount of rushing and passing TD's in NCAA history. I commend the guy for making Tennessee relevant again. Not an easy thing to do. He put his team on his back and did quite well.

Just as a joke on the 1st day of install I would tell Kaaya we're install 15 RPO's where his read is the ILB and watch the expression on his face.

well, yeah, it's information, but it's hardly informative, or very revealing of anything at all. He is just explaining how that play was designed to be executed and how it was taught to him (which again, he may or may not have explained in one take without messing it up, lol).

Lemme guess - someone is going to take him saying this and now the standard rhetoric will be "Trubs can make pre-snap reads of a defense!". Please, lol!

There are no tea leaves there.

Who is talking about reading tea leaves?

I take it you aren't much of a football X's and O's guy huh?

Trusbisky is probably the top QB I want the least part of, and the same for Kaaya of the mid-rounders.

Both are on my don't want to Draft list. Not that any QB is on the gotta get that guy list.

Mahomes is who I'd take if I had to pick one. I'm definitely not a QB guru, though. I'll have to take a closer look at the on field portion of his Gruden camp.

I've just caught pieces here and there.

I know for whatever reason its hard to stick to thread topic. And it will probably make me the bad guy. But I got to say that I would love if there could be at thread where we actually discussed what the thread topic is without turning it another thread where everyone gives their declarative and preconceived opinions on the quarterbacks regardless of the actual topic of discussion or thread.

I'm sorry if that offends anybody I don't want it to offend anybody but I don't know any other way to say it. I just want to talk about the actual content from the Gruden specials.

Those days were gone by the time you got here. Sorry.

Jerry Rice had the dropsies as a rookie. In fact he was booed often.
Brett Favre didn't know what "nickel" and "dime" meant as a rookie.

I didn't say WRs can't improve on the dropsies. I said being a rookie is not an excuse for having them.

I did have a little bit of a hard time understanding what Watson was saying.

Gruden did really like him though.

Gruden did really like him though.


Gruden said he liked Manzeil too

Gruden's scale is

Really liked... loved.... adored..... wanted to follow into the bathroom

So saying he really liked him isn't saying much, really liked is near the bottom of his QB rating scale.

Gruden is way too easy on these guys. It's much more a meet and greet than a test of knowledge and he always tries to make his guests look good which is why he gets lots of them to show up. Still it's fun to watch =)

*LOL* ... I been wanting to say that for a few days now .. u just said it a million times better than i could have ...

Thanks for the laugh and the truth ...