DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2017 NFL Season 2017 NFL Draft Your pick for #1 and #12?

You may not want Watson at 12 or 33.(or at all based on your description of him)

The way you describe him above he not only doesn't seem like a fit for Hue/Browns...he doesn't seem like a QB fit for any team...much less as being one of the top QBs in the draft class.

But, I feel compelled to address a few things which you state as fact. Now, everyone is entitled to their opinions but not to state them as fact.

Where did Hue say he wants a big arm? What are you referring to with this statement?

Granted it is well known that Hue's passing offense wants to push the ball vertically downfield by watching the games. And we know that last year Hue challenging Kessler to push the ball down field in a couple media clips/articles. Is that what you mean by big arm?

If so I bet you would be surprised to find out that Watson was 3rd in Deep ball accuracy.

Or are you referring to the false media perception that Watson has a weak arm based on the unofficial/unverified ball velocity numbers from the combine which had him as 49 mph?

ESPN Sports Science show clears this silly notion up quite nicely because they actually measure max ball velocity based on the QBs actual film. And Watson's ball velocity was 53.5 mph.



Oh by the way...Watson is also 3rd in Adjusted Completion Percentage which once again goes against your statement.

^^Sprint Right Option west coast offense staple


How much do you know about the respective offensive systems the QBs in this draft class run? Clemson vs UNC vs Texas Tech vs CAL....which do you think has more pro-style concepts? After you do your research I would be curious to hear your results.

If you watch Clemson film you can certainly see Watson drop back and go through his reads, he even makes some full field reads. I'm sure you won't but the thread below has some gifs of Watson doing exactly what you suggest he can't:

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1259740/film-breakdown-deshaun-watson#Post1259740

What do rumors from a regime that has been remarkably tight lipped mean?

I am not saying Watson is without flaws he has plenty:

-slow starter
-can be reckless with the ball and force 50/50 balls
-get more passes batted at the LOS then you want to see
-some injury history
-'quiet'

I'm not saying they should or shouldn't take Watson in this draft. I am saying that you're characterization of him doesn't match the data out there.

I had Foster going to the Bungles in the first before this popped up .

They have Adam Jones, a drug test failure won't impact their decisions... unless they feel he's going to drop of course which he likely definitely is.

I'm not sure how to select the pick for 12 since we don't know who will be available.

I guess the OP wants us to pick anyone we want and assume they'll be available?

Garrett + Allen

Garrett + Jamal Adams

Garrett + Lattimore/Conley

Garrett + OJ Howard

or

Allen + Derek Barnett (ducks)

I think Foster might be around for our second rounder. Failed drug test, scuffle at the combine, medical red flag, party scene guy, ... ...

If he was available in the second round I might just pick him. We don't need anyone at that position, but his talent is undeniable.

What about Solomon Thomas at 1, and McCaffrey at 12, I could get behind that, IF they hadn't created a hole at quarterback by departing RG3 and 1-10 McCown.

I guess they really forced themselves into a Qb at 1, by parting RG3 and the 1-10 McCown and leaving no more experience than Kessler.

Help us Obi-Wan...Garrett #1, Hooker or Adams #12, Foster falls in our lap at #33. Add the cherry on top taking Sydney Jones #52. For sprinkles, draft Mixon at top of the third...I couldn't think of another first round!

Funny, this isn't as big a pipe dream.

Good luck in life but your personality on here comes off as someone that believes they are superior to everyone and personally I think u r just full of yourself. So please don't bother even reading my silly point of view since u already know everything. Btw hue himself has stated he prefers the big armbut let's not let facts get in the way if your ego.

12 & 33 are the most intriguing of our picks. So many options. If we don't use it for JG (looking increasingly like that wont happen) I would say:

OJ Howard would be my choice at 12. Give Kess/Brock another weapon on offense and it is a safe pick that will be an immediate starter and should make an impact.

33....I am intrigued by Mahomes but, think he will go in 1st round. So, we either trade up and get him or we use for a safety like Obi or Budda (if one is there) and then take Webb or Dobbs later.

#1 Garrett - he's just to good to pass up and other than QB pass-rush is our biggest need.

#12 I'd like to see either Adams or Hooker fall here but I doubt that would happen, my next choice would be Howard if there, if he's gone then either Conley, Cook, or Williams.

#33 I would like one of the top CBs like Conley or White to fall here if not then I'd go with Baker here.

Lol, thank you! I appreciate you wishing me luck in life however disingenuous.

This is an internet fan message board.

There will be discussion and there will be disagreement. I thought some of your opinions which you stated as fact were incorrect. And I provided the information which related directly to the areas being discussed.

I am not gonna make any personal comments towards you. My post was about football. My opinions about you on a personal level I regard as out of bounds. You are entitled to feel anyway you want about what I post. I would prefer a response about the football though.
I like football. I'm a football nerd. When I respond, time permitting, I want my post to be as accurate and informative as possible. How you take that is up to you.
My post was all football nothing personal. I would still be interested in your football response to my post.

Hey man I asked you for clarification on what you meant by 'big arm'. And if its a fact then just link/quote it. Not a big deal.

Here's what I recall and he doesn't say 'big arm'.


Clearly, Watson has arm talent. He doesn't have the arm strength of Mahomes or Kizer. But he certainly has an NFL arm and can make all the throws. On top of that he's one of the best deep ball passers. He can vary ball speeds, he a clean and consistent throwing motion (def moreso then Kizer/Mahomes).

(1) Garrett
(12) not sure who will be there so I will rank:
--(1) Adams (S)
--(2) Hooker (S)
--(3) Trubisky (QB)
--(4) J. Allen (DT)
--(5) OJ Howard (TE)
--(6) Williams/Davis (WR)

I might swap Allen and Trubisky.

With this QB class I have sort of decided there is probably not a huge separation between the guy likely to go first and a guy like Mahomes who might go 3rd or 4th. All have something that prevents them from being a consensus guy to make it at the next level. If they sort their mechanics and minor flaws out at the next level Trubisky, Mahomes Kizer all have very high ceilings. Watson has plAyed great on the biggest stages.... But unless you truly covet one ... Why select one so early?

Adams is the guy I guess I covet most ... Slim to none chance and I think slim left town.

Garrett Allen would make the DL elite. imo

Howard does everything very well. He'd be a great pick up too.

Bottom line I really think if we sit tight great players will call to us.

In no specific order, I'd take either of those two safeties if available there at #12, or if not -I'd happily take OJ. This is my hope scenario, either way, we should be able to get a talented player to help our team there at #12 after having took Garrett #1 of course.

For the life of me I cannot understand the fascination with Myles Garrett - injury prone, underachiever. Just compare the SEC stats of Derek Barnett with Myles Garrett. I think the media has created a group think around Garrett without really looking at his negatives and risks. If I had to pick either Barnett or Garrett, I would go with Barnett. Barnett had 13 sacks last year, Garrett had 8.5 and 4 came against small schools. The prior year, the one that is supposed to be a better representation for Garrett, he had 11.5 sacks and Barnett had 10. To me Garrett = Courtney Brown and Barnett = D Freeney.

That said, I don't think anyone can deny the importance of the QB position in the NFL. Over 50% of Super Bowl winning teams drafted their QB in the first round. The entire team plays better when a team has a franchise QB. Without one, defenses get worn down, offenses don't get into a rythm, and players give up hope and lose mental toughness. The Browns absolutely must try to find a franchise QB ASAP. There is no waiting on this. They already passed on Carr, Wentz and Prescott. If the one you pick now doesn't work out, you have the ammo to go after another next year, but if you don't take one this year, you are accepting being a loser for at least another year or two.

My picks:

1. Mitch Trubisky, QB, UNC - Best red zone rating of any college QB 17TDs to 0 Ints.
12. Derek Barnett, Edge, Tenn - He will be better than Myles Garrett (if gone, Mike Williams)
33. Quincy Wilson, CB, FL - Need a Joe Haden replacement (if gone, TreDavious White)
52. M Humphrey, CB, OSU - Need 2 corners. (if gone, Fabian Moreau)
66. Duke Riley, ILB, LSU

You get Trubiski, the best QB in the draft who is a potential franchise QB, imo the best edge rusher in the draft in Barnett, 2 potential starting CB's with Q Wilson and M Humprhrey, and a sideline to sideline MLB in Duke Riley. You also keep all your other picks this year and next year - no trading away valuable picks. To me, this is how you build a team, not by going gaga eyes over an underachieving, injury plagued DE.

Brownout, how would you guess the chances of Garrett busting in Cleveland compare to those of Trubisky?

I'm really hoping one of the following guys drops to 12: Hooker, Adams, Solomon, Howard, Lattimore. But I'm doubting any of them will

I would say much higher. My bust rate is 60/40 on Garrett and 40/60 on Trubiski. My evaluation of the traits of college QB's that succeed in the NFL are:

Accuracy - Trubiski has excellent accuracy. D Watson lacks that accuracy and will only be a mediocre NFL QB for that reason.

Quick release- Dan Marino showed how important a quick release is in the NFL. Ask Tom Brady and A Rogers how important it is.

Strong arm - you have to be able to make the deep throw or NFL defenses will cheat up. He has the arm and can make all the NFL throws. Something Kessler can't do. Weeden had the arm, but lacked the accuracy and intelligence.

Intelligence - One big indicator to me of QB intelligence is interception rate. Trubiski throws very few int's (30 TD, 6 Int) because he is able to see the field, make good decisions, and protects the ball. If you watch his 6 interceptions, most were not his fault or just a damn good defensive play. An incredibly important trait in the NFL. Also red zone interceptions are another key indicator - 17TDs to 0 ints in red zone.

Character - he is squeaky clean. You won't see Trubiski riding an inflatable swan.

My question is, why wouldn't he excel in the NFL? The only comeback is he only started 13 games - so what? By the way, he did play in 6 games as a sophomore and had 6 TDs' 0 int's. In the games he did start, he showed he has the traits you look for in a franchise QB.

The biggest reason I think Garret would bust is an inability to stay healthy. He couldn't do it in college so why do we think he will in the NFL where it is even more physical. Also, he is underachieving even when healthy. He makes a big play that looks awesome on video like one time every 4 games. Or 4 times in a game against a Division II school. But, he is invisible on many plays, especially against better competition. That scares me.

brownout, based on your evaluation, Trubisky is a better prospect than Mariota, Winston, Wentz, Goff, etc.

You say he's: Extremely accurate, has a quick release, is highly intelligent, and has impeccable character.

I'm not saying you're correct or incorrect, just haven't seen many people this sure about Trubisky.

Just an aside, on Facebook I am a member of a group 'Cleveland Browns 4 Life.' There are quite a few fans there who are ugly angry about the prospect of Garrett going #1. The obsession for a QB goes well beyond MKC.

Which I don't get. You still have to be prudent about it. If the QB isn't worth the pick (aka Weeden and Johnny) then pick the BPA (especially when that guy is a difference making pass rusher). If you reach for players, especially QBs, it's what mires your franchise in awfulness.

I gotta say, despite the common opinion here, I think if Trubisky is there at 12, he's a Brown. Unless there is clearly superior prospect there (Adams/Hooker), I think the pressure to get a QB will overpower other considerations.

Cleveland Browns Draft: Garrett At 1, But What About 12?

By stephenthomas
Updated: April 17, 2017









By Stephen Thomas (@15Stephen15)

Browns Fan, Comedian & Stage 4 Mockaholic

So we’re finally barreling down the home stretch to the 2017 NFL Draft. (Let’s all take a moment to collectively thank whatever deity, higher power, or Kardashian we personally worship that it’s almost over)(Thank you, that was a nice moment) As is our annual pre-draft tradition, the breadth of Browns Fandom is using this final few days to turn on each other, spit insults at anyone with different player grades, and demand that strangers publishing a Mock Draft considered “trash” have repeated carnal relations with numerous blood relatives.

Aaah, spring.

Conventional wisdom says that Myles Garrett at 1 is all over but the shouting, however “what to do at 12” is a hot topic lately in Clevelandville. There are three options with the pick, all of which hinge on how the Browns grade this Quarterback class. Since that grade is a critical piece of the information puzzle possessed by literally none of us outside the Fortress In Berea, I find great humor in how absolutely certain everyone is about what will transpire at 12. Go ahead, go to BrownsTwitter and tell someone they’re wrong about 12. As Fenster would say, they’ll flip ya. Flip ya for real. I readily admit I have no idea what they’re going to do at 12, though I remain convinced it will somehow be utilized to acquire their quarterback.

I’m going to go over the three options with the pick in the order of likelihood I believe they may occur.

Option 1: Stay put. Duh. We have no idea how the Browns have these Quarterbacks graded, but if whomever is their #1 is still on the board here, this is the simplest, least stressful and gloriously boring route. Every single one of us should be wishing upon multiple stars and several character actors that this is what happens. Honestly, after decades of wild Browns drafts, wouldn’t it be sooooooo nice to have a First Round of “Hey, we got our two guys at our two spots, and now we’re going to grab a Guinness, watch a couple Cheers reruns, scratch ourselves without fear of reprisal and go to sleep?” I know I’d be a gleeful idiot, even more than normal.

Option 2: Trade up for a QB. This is the option that has been discussed ad nauseam lately in BrownsTwitter, and some of the trade proposals out there are beyond insanity. For example, RJ White at CBS Sports has the Browns giving San Francisco picks 12, 33 and 108 in this draft, plus two of their 2018 2nd round picks, to move up to the #2 slot and take Mitch Trubisky. Using the Harvard Trade Chart, this trade grades as -1,131.5 for the Browns; which is the equivalent of giving up their next two 1st round picks and a 2nd round pick. (If that doesn’t qualify as batsh*t crazy, then that eloquent term has lost all meaning, and should be relegated to only being used when describing any member of Congress) This is only one example of many wild trade scenarios that have been floated lately where the NFL franchise in Cleveland gets bent over like a Ron Jeremy scene partner. Willingly. Apparently, certain members of the national media believe that this Browns Front Office is being run by a group of particularly slow-witted chipmunks, or at best by men who need to be naked to count to 21. It’s mystifying. (Not as mystifying as people who continue to mock RB to the Browns at 12, or anyone who eats the sin against everything holy that is Turkey Bacon, but mystifying nonetheless)

Not everyone out there proposing swaps is a lunatic, though, and there have been some reasonable trade-up ideas pontificated. The most popular trade partner I’ve seen has been the Titans in the #5 slot, partially due to the belief that the Jets are primed to take a quarterback at 6. I disagree with this trade spot, for several reasons. First, the Titans are a team that believes they are on the verge of contending, and I don’t think they’ll pass on the opportunity to add a Top 5 player to their roster, especially since many of the names that will conceivably still be on the board at 5 fit their current needs, and theoretically could immediately help them take that next step. Also, Tennessee has two first round picks, and the luxury of having pick 18 on their plate makes it easier for them to hold the Browns hostage even more than normal in any trade discussion. The Titans have very little motivation to make a deal, which means potentially asking the Browns to give up future 1st round picks, and I don’t see Sashi’s Marauders making that move. Finally, the guys I know in JetsWorld insist to a man that New York is not taking a QB. Could they be wrong? Yes. Could I be wrong? Wouldn’t be neeeeeeeearly the first time, but it’s what I believe. Put it all together, add in the Jets motivation to make a move, and I actually think that if – IF – the Browns are inclined to move up, swapping with the Jets at 6 is the most likely landing spot.

Why would the Jets move down? Well….. to be super nice about it, their roster isn’t exactly loaded with talent. If the Patriots 53 is George Clooney, the Jets 53 is … well, me. Some have said the Jets are in the position the Browns were last year: Year One of a total tear down/rebuild. In that position, collecting draft assets is a necessary step, so a trade down makes sense. Also, as it pertains to the match with the Browns, the Jets have Sheldon Richardson in a contract year. Yes, he has off field issues. Yes, his production dropped in 2016 (though most in New York say that was due to him being misused and forced to play out of position quite a bit). However, the Browns need for a 3T is very real, and I’ve been advocating using pick 65 to fill it anyway, so adding 65 to a trade that returns an established 3T is a fit. The point is, the Jets have multiple angles of motivation to make a deal that the Titans simply do not. Usually, the team moving up in a trade pays a premium, but the Jets real need to accumulate picks for their rebuild, accompanied by their desire to get something for Richardson before he walks in Free Agency, mitigates that to some degree. When both teams are motivated, deals get more evenly equitable. Thinking 2-3 steps into the future, if the Browns acquire Richardson as part of a deal and he leaves in Free Agency after the season (for whatever reason), Cleveland would be in line for a pretty high compensatory pick in 2019, so that implied value must be added to the trade equity as well.
Again using the Harvard Trade Chart, the Browns giving 12, 65, and 185 in this year’s draft for 6 and Sheldon Richardson comes out just about dead even, so that’s a good starting point. Stealing a line from Captain Barbossa, the trade charts are “More guidelines than actual rules.” What I mean is that this is not what the final deal will look like, but it’s the foundation of any negotiations. Forced to guess, if the Browns are hot enough on a QB to move up, I’d say any deal with the Jets could include one of the Browns 2018 2nd round picks as well. If so, it would put the final chart score of the trade somewhere in the -150 range for Cleveland. -150 to get what you consider your QB of the future is far more palatable than the previously mentioned -1,131.5. It’s actually quite reasonable.

There are other trade up spots, like Carolina at 8 or Buffalo at 10, but I humbly submit that the Jets at 6 is most likely. (Go ahead, commence calling me stupid)

Option 3: Trade down. Obviously, we don’t know what the Browns board looks like, but based on the non-QB names usually available at this spot in most of the national mocks I’ve seen, if Cleveland isn’t going to go QB at 12, a trade down makes the most sense, and there could be several willing partners in the 14-21 range. There are too many variables to get into here, and I simply don’t know the Front Offices of the other teams in those slots well enough to say whether there would be a player they might covet at 12, but assuming the QB Cleveland wants is gone and they are indeed looking at a trade down, I’d think the Browns would be hoping that Christian McCaffrey and Corey Davis are still on the board at 12. You could make a case that any of the teams between 14 and 21 would be willing to move up for one of those two players.

Looking at it from the Browns perspective, the most enticing trade partners in that range would be Tennessee or Denver, since both of those teams have their own 3rd round picks as well as compensatory 3rds, and therefore might be more willing to give one up in any potential trade. There has been a ton of noise that the Titans want to get a combination of CB and WR with their picks at 5 and 18; if they end up taking Lattimore at 5 as has been speculated, moving from 18 up to 12 for Corey Davis would be a logical move. Referring back to the Harvard Trade Chart, the Browns giving 12 and 175 to Tennessee for 18 and 83 is +23.9 for Cleveland, so it’s at least a reasonable starting point. (Keep in mind, I’m not necessarily advocating for this trade or saying I’ve heard anything about it happening. I’m simply attempting to illustrate that there are deals to be made with the teams in that range of picks.) Again, the trade down option only applies if the Browns either don’t want a QB or “their guy” is gone, but if it happens, adding another Top 100 pick in this draft class is a huge opportunity.

(*Note: The only non-QB I’d advocate taking at 12 is Solomon Thomas. In the unimaginable scenario that Thomas falls to 12, I’d grab him and then try to trade back up from 33 to get a QB … which is whole different set of problems I won’t get into today.)

All of this being said, I still think the Browns end up staying at 12 and taking a QB. I know it’s not exciting, but I’ve had enough Manziel-Weeden-Gilbert-Mingo-Homeless Guy-Leaked White Board 1st round excitement to last me several lifetimes. If my beloved Cleveland Browns come out of the first round with a nice boring combo of Myles Garrett at 1 and their QB at 12, I’ll dance a happy boring dance.

Follow me on Twitter @15Stephen15, and follow along the entire draft process at the hashtag #BrownsDailyMockDraftExperiment.

Stephen Thomas is a professional comedian, and has been a season ticket holder in The Dawg Pound since 1991. He still hates John Elway, Jeremiah Castille and Mike Davis, will swear to his grave that Rich Karlis’ kick was wide left, and would root for a team of Satan’s Minions if they played against the Steelers.

http://foreverrebuilding.com/2017/04...-garrett-1-12/

A fun, and largely (IMO) accurate read.

1. Garrett
2. Hooker/Adams/Fournette/Latimore/Howard/Trade down

I put Adams before Hooker. Lattimore worries me with his injury history. Otherwise, this list looks pretty good to me.

My picks

1 Garrett

12 Trubisky, Mccaffrey, Howard

I'd be happy with any of those three

Go Browns!!!

If we stay at 1 and 12 I'd say Garrett and hooker/howard. My top move would still be to trade down from 1 to 5 or 6.

Just want the Organization to stop trying to put Square pegs in round holes cause they think they are smarter than the average Bear !

Credit : They did a nice job setting up the next two drafts , now don't blow it with reaching for a position and lousy talent evaluation !

I'd say that analytics probably support this move, but I just don't feel comfortable with it...

I wouldn't mind trading back to 5/6 ... but is Tennessee/NY going to offer what it will take? Garrett should require a big haul

I Like Garrett at #1, and Hooker at #12

I have Garrett as my top prospect but there isn't as large a gap to me as many make it out to be. I'd be much happier with some combo of adams, hooker, Howard, barnett, McDowell as well as 2 more impact picks this or next year than i would just taking Garrett and fill in the blank. While Garrett is a great prospect I'll always take 4 high value(1st and 2nd round) picks over 2 unless it's a qb worthy of 1 which we all know there isn't.

Would you take the same deal we got for wentz for Garrett? I'd take less. It's a much stronger top10 and he isn't a qb. My dream trades would be Tenn 5, 18 and 2018 1st for 1, 52 and our own 2018 2nd/ NYJ 6 and 2018 1st for 1.

I hate getting into giving up some of our own picks. Just give me 5, 18, plus something. Not saying I would do it, but I'd be inclined

I don't understand the fascination with trading when you have the set up we have for the next two drafts !

I would still love a draft haul of Allen + Barnett

What if we got Garrett and Allen instead?

Ed you're up in the mock