DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2017 NFL Season 2017 NFL Draft Browns trade 12th pick to Texans

Not a fan of the trade. Hooker was RIGHT there.

This has me asking this question to all those opposed to this trade:


Can someone quantify the differences between Hooker/Peppers and Howard/Njoku to lay out just what it is folks think we missed out on?

Hooker and Peppers are completely different players. Both are phenomenal athletes. Peppers is a great tackler. Hooker isn't. Hooker's signature skill is zone coverage. He can cover so much of the field he takes away just about any route 30 yards plus and it would have to be a great throw on the sideline to complete 25 yards. That's a special skill. Peppers is horrible in zone and average at best in man. There are a lot of safeties that can run and hit in this draft that you can even get in the fourth round. There's one more centerfielder left in this draft and I bet he doesn't make it to our next pick.

When it comes to Howard and Njoku, Howard has 4.51 speed vs. Njoku's 4.64. Howard is also a more developed route runner (and his 3-cone indicates he has better potential in that regard). He's also a better blocker. Njoku jumps higher than howard.

Njoku is arguably the better athlete though wouldn't you say? His Vert and Broad were better than Howards. What I do read tho is Njoku isn't great at blocking. But, Telfer is (if we keep him).

IMO - JB is a little bigger and just as fast as MH.

MH has decent hips and great instincts in the passing game and is a great ball hawk in "center field", but takes bad angles and misses a lot of tackles in the run game.

JB has lesser instincts in the passing game, but from what I saw at the combine has been hips and is more fluid than most give him credit for. Better instincts in the run game, great holding the edge when asked to come down in the box.

Depends on what you are looking for I guess, MH more prototypical but I think that JB has more versatility, I am excited to see him behind on the outside of MG and see what he can do given what I think will be a lot of open space to move.

I think this is the math the Browns decided on:
Peppers + Njoku + 2018 1st round pick > Howard + Peppers
and
Peppers + Njoku + 2018 1st round pick > Hooker + Njoku

Although Howard probably had a higher grade, adding that first round pick tipped the scales.

You are probably one of those that was also elated when we decided to no pick Julio Jones and trade down, or Sammy Watkins...

If you can't see the difference between them nobody is going to be able show you.

Just remember one thing, when was the last time our FO was right about a player?

Colemon is a stud, right... keep on dreaming. Pepers is no Malik and OJ is OJ, the best TE prospect in years, and I have no doubt he will be one of the best TE's in the league. The TE we picked can't even catch a ball, comparing the talent level is absurd.

We traded up to draft an HB/FB, on his best days...

So, basically, one is a FS that can't tackle (yeah, that sounds like a redundancy) and the other is a SS that can't cover (again, a redundancy)?

A curious, honest question: does your opinion of Peppers' coverage ability get influenced by the (apparent) fact that he simply wasn't asked to do a lot of it because he was playing so much LB?

Also, if you factor in how our DC is likely to use him in a hybrid role (as speculated elsewhere on here), does this impact your perceived value of his pick??

with Saunders, I think Njoku can really develop. He can be molded because he's so young and athletic. He's at the tip of his iceberg. Howard may have a little less upside

I think we needed a SS more than a FS - Reynolds didn't do half a bad job last year but our SS play was not great. I would love to pick up King, Baker or Williams for that role though - upgrade is an upgrade.

I'm on the fence with Peppers and the whole trade down thing. This regime must have the nod from ownership that they can fuflil their vision and not have to win this year. I reckon we have to show progress and more wins (min of 4?) to safeguard that path though.

I don't know dude, many analysts have Njoku as the 2nd best TE on the board. Ahead of Engram who went earlier.

Hooker can tackle. He took bad angles at times, but the rhetoric that he can't tackle is overblown.

steve had some great points in his reply to you. I just want to add one thing. Finding a FS who can cover the entire field is very rare. Finding safeties who are in the box, hard hitters are easy to find.

Hooker is a rare, rare talent. The only thing I can see that would knock him down is perhaps his injury is worse than what we've heard.

Difference is that while we can go with a phenomenal ball skill FS with tackling problems, we cannot go with a SS with ball skill problems...

We can't move Peppers to ILB, so he will be a situational player at best, IMHO.

Very litle use for a player like Peppers, specially with the very bad backfield we have.

Remember that even Haden has problems...

No, my opinion is based on me watching what he could and couldn't do.

Your SS needs to be able to cover the slot and to cover the TE. Remember how pathetic we felt with Dalton throwing lobs to Gresham with TJ Ward on him? That's what it's going to be like. Even in his "highlight" they kept showing, he got beat badly on a simple stick route but the ball bounced off the receiver so he got an INT. Watch some of his cut ups on draftbreakdown and you will see someone completely lost in zone, slow to react, losing track of receivers. Major deficiency and you're going to put him on the back end of the defense that gave up the most TD passes in the league last year?

I really love what Hooker brings to any team.... I would have taken him or Allen. But both have injury question marks, and that equates to risk. I think that is also the reason Reuben fell - I love Reuben too.

My quest for you - based on watching film - do you think Peppers is a football player? Forgetting specific coverage skills and 40 times ... when you watch Peppers do you see a guy who has "it" provided the team and coaches can utilize him in the right way?. . . . the reason I ask that, is thinking of a guy like Miingo who had great measurables and 40 time but never struck me as a real football guy. Justin Gilbert, another example - guy really wasn't that into the game despite having elite athletic ability and flashing skills in college.

I respect most analysts, but I don't have any respect to any analyst to praises a receiver while saying he has problems catching the ball.

We have been there, seen that. You can't teach catching ..., route running I can get it, but catching no...

Njoku can't catch and that in my book makes him a glorified HB or FB.

In the end we ended up with one good pick and then a safety that cannot cover and a TE that can't catch... and a QB (Osweiler) that cannot throw...

Only the Browns would do that...

Engram is a TEINO. He was the best WR on the board though. I agree that Njoku is the second best TE prospect but isn't a sure thing. Would rather have Leggett in the 4th than Njoku in the 1st, but it's not a bad pick... could have done a lot worse there. No complaints.

ok, cool.... this is the sort of answer I was looking for, thanks!
I'm not a "draftnik" by any stretch of the imagination; so like many I rely on the informed opinions of others... the difficulty with that is filtering through all of the various conflicting "informed" opinions.

So you want the guys who you think suck at making picks to have less picks? That makes no sense. Less picks means less chance at success (if they suck or not).

Do you think the fact he couldn't work out accompanied with the 1 year starter thing hurt him more than we would have expected?

He was the #3 player on my personal board, but he didn't go until 15......has to be something there. Adams is not the prospect Hooker is, and I liked Adams. Oh well, something is up there.

As for Peppers...mehh. He has the talent to be special, but I don't like having to teach a guy a new position at the NFL level. Peppers played mostly LB for the past year. I get that isn't his fault, and is actually commendable when considering he had to know it would hurt his NFL draft status. However, it doesn't change the fact you will have to teach this guy how to play safety at a high level. The talent to do so is there, but it's going to be ugly for him next year imo.

He can't catch? I think that's a little extreme. And at age 20 - he can't improve?

From PFF - who rated him the #2 TE:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/draft-pff-scouting-report-david-njoku-te-miami-fl/

NFL comparison: Jordan Reed, Washington Redskins

Like Reed, Njoku figures to have more NFL success as a receiving option than he does as a run-blocker, while showing competence as a run-blocker when the alignment is in his favor. Neither player is overly elusive but both are effective with the ball in their hands due to a combination of size, top-end speed and a willingness to punch the defense in the mouth, don’t be surprised if there’s a highlight of Njoku hurdling over a defender next season.

Bottom line: Njoku has legitimate concerns as a run-blocker. He ranked 36th among 77 qualified, draft-eligible tight ends this season in terms of run-block grading after finishing 26th among the group in 2015; he could really struggle against NFL edge defenders with an explosive first step. With that being said, he’s also a legitimate Day 1 starter as a receiving option. He works well both off the line and in the slot, effectively finds the seams down the middle of the field and his footwork on out-routes will repeatedly find him separating from linebackers tasked with covering him; at the very least he should provide a nice safety blanket underneath for his QB.

Peppers is fantastic in the run game. Best case scenario is they can develop his coverage skills and he ends up being Deion Jones, but that's a stretch goal and even Jones went around pick 50. JMO.

Picks are like dollar bills, so if you trade a 100 dollar bill for 2x 5 dollar bills, you will end up with one more bill but losing 90 dollars...


Thats the Browns in a nutshell

I want to add that I am pretty happy w/what the Browns did last night.

Love the Garrett pick.

Did not like the trade down at 12.

Did not like the Peppers pick.

Really liked the Njoku choice.

It's not great like many are claiming, but it's not like we got "stumped" either. LOL

Overall, it appears are team is stronger. I wish we would have drafted Hooker and I can't believe it fell perfectly for us to do so...........but again, overall it was a pretty good night.

Vers, have you seen Njoku film? He can't catch a cold, looks really clumsy catching. He is a big body, can block, but that's not a first round nor 2nd round pick.

TE's are receivers, not lineman.

That's about the way I see it as well. I REALLY wanted Hooker, but I'm feeling content with Peppers, and I'm definitely happy with Njoku, though I think I would have preferred Foster.

Eo made it official, our trade sucked...

Since I can remember, he's never been right on the trades... ;-)

Vers, I Agree with your opinions on the specific moves but not your conclusion. When opportunities appear you have to seize them. We had a shot to get two top 5 players in this draft and instead we got one top 5 player and one guy without a position, plus a pick likely to be 20 or worse next year. I don't think we can say "well we didn't think we'd have a shot at those guys so no big loss we didn't take them." I think you're being too easy on the front office, lol.

Well the season is only 4+ months away !

I think you watch as much or more tape as anyone, so your opinion carries a lot of weight imo.

I think when I hear that Harbuagh says Peppers (and Andrew Luck) are the smartest players he's ever coached, and being able to see Peppers undeniable athletic, penetration/tackling ability ... I have a little hope he can make a big impact. I too saw the horrible zone coverage skills. To me it looked a bit like he is always looking for the run and that 1/2 second left him flat footed and beaten in coverage. . . . I was actually truly impressed the way he set the edge in thee run game - there he looked outstanding: disciplined, strong and instinctive.

So, maybe the difference is just practice? Sounds like in coverage he is still thinking and not "just playing".

Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can't get it wrong.

If he spent all of his time focusing efforts on what was being asked of him, then perhaps it is just a matter of putting in the time and work to learn the other half of it?

If he has the athletic ability AND the intelligence, then I cannot fathom a reason that this shouldn't be the case.

#devilsadvocate

He gave up those in-breaking routes, but he may have been coached to play with outside leverage. His first responsibility may have been to keep runs from getting to the outside. That's the narrative from that Film Room video that got linked, and watching it more closely there may be some validity to it. He was asked to play LB and it is a different perspective in coverage from the traffic in the box. I'm sure we asked him about the technique he was using when we had him in the film room and on the board.

I'd definitely have preferred Hooker, but I don't have access to the medical and team meetings.

Is it possible to have a football conversation w/out all the insults?

He played LB and he played safety. He was awful when he played safety.

We have been there and done that. That's why I hate the picks.

We pick players with fundamental flaws, make them starters and then 2 years they are out of this league. Gilbert, Coleman, etc, etc

Just watch the film and see the reports, Peppers lacks ball skils, instincts, Njoku can't catch a ball not to mention run a route.

The flaws are so obvious to the positions they play, that its like drafting a kicker that can't kick...

They are wasted picks and it counpounds when we look at the players we passed to pick this guys. Malik or OJ would be starters with imediate impact.

Hilarious.

I understand you might not like the picks because you didn't grade those players the same way the FO did. You can even provide the reason for feeling the way you do.

But imo you lose any argument when you make statements like this - apparently drawing a direct correlation of Gilbert and Coleman. Gilbert is a total bust, taken #8 overall. Coleman missed games because of a broken hand, and played for a team struggling mightily at QB. Unfair much? Coleman's grade is incomplete. . . . but if it suits your agenda, sure state as fact that he's a bust like Gilbert.

Unfortunatly and judging by our track record with a very high probability of becoming true.