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The guy will most likely go down as the worst president in history...I don't need a poll to tell whether or not a handful of people think he's awful...
...at this point, I'm just curious to know who's defending him. His Iraq plan was an absolute and complete disaster...the least thought out action of any president in a long time. He spends money left and right, has absolutely no fiscal responsibility, and thumbs his nose at anyone who disagrees with him. He's a liberal spender, a liberal nation builder...how can any conservative defend the guy outside of blind loyalty to the GOP?
He's a disgrace to his country, and I doubt he gets impeached, although he certainly deserves it.
he can't be impeached for these things, like them or not, he cannot be impeached for them...
this is the same thing when ten years ago, people were saying bill clinton should have been impeached because some intern gave him skull duggery, again, you can't be impeached for that...
bush may not be a great president, the whole iraq thing... i understand it (because i don't believe everything i see and hear on tv, sure, there were no wmd's, but anyone who honestly believes that was the only reason we went in needs to have their head examined) i just wish we went in with more support from other countries, and thumbs down to those countries that didn't support us...
i do applaud bush for sticking with the whole thing in iraq...
it'd be easy to say "well, crap, this isn't working, let's get the hell out of here"
maybe that is something that you can be impeached for, i don't know
but if he had pulled out of iraq, the entire country's government is too young and too weak to depend on themselves... it would be a hot bed for terrorists to assemble and do more damage...
i hate getting into political discussions on the internet, but i'm tired of the whole "impeachment" thing
you can't impeach a president because you don't like what he's doing, it just isn't that easy...
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Ron Paul in '08
Probably the only candidate I'd vote for.
Too bad he has zero chance.
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A large part of common sense is knowing when you have nothing to contribute to the argument when you have no knowledge of the subject in question whatsoever -- or taking the initiative to educate yourself in the subject if you want to your opinion to be taken seriously.
But, I'm sure you knew that already.
Like 45% of Americans saying a president should be impeached when there is no proof he committed an impeachable offense.
I think I'm going to pop...I really do. To sit here and claim that there is no proof he committed an impeachable offense is just insane. All Bush and his administration has done is lie to public, report false information congress, refuse congressional subpoenas, order illegal search and seizure, illegal wiretapping, obstruct justice, abuse executive powers, going to war without congressional approval, and worse yet...sending over 3,500 american troops to their death over lies, ego, and money.
Can you tell me why we invaded Iraq? If you say it has anything to do with 9/11...your wrong. Al-Qeada? Your wrong. Weapons of Mass Destruction....Your wrong. If you want to say....Oil....or money....or revenge, you'll be a lot closer.
Will Bush be impeached, no. Probably not. The entire process will take well over a year to do. And by the time that Bush would be impeached, he'd be out of office anyway.
But to sit here and claim that Bush and / or his administration has not committed any High crimes or misdemeanors is just ignorance to the world around. Pick up a credible, national newspaper (washingtonpost.com, or nytimes.com are good starts).
I don't want to hear "Just because he's our president, would should support him."
Blind faith in bad leadership is not Patriotism.
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Ron Paul in '08
Probably the only candidate I'd vote for.
Too bad he has zero chance.
I like him too. But your right, probably will never make it past the GOP Primaries. It's a shame.
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I don't want to hear "Just because he's our president, would should support him."
Blind faith in bad leadership is not Patriotism.
Show me where I said anything like that. Show me anywhere where I said I support the way we are fighting the war on terror, or the war in Iraq. Show me where I said I support Bush as president now.
There is no evidence of anything that they can impeach him of, period. Hate him all you want but you can't impeach somebody for being a dolt. If Congress could they would do it in a New York minute.
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Can you tell me why we invaded Iraq? If you say it has anything to do with 9/11...your wrong. Al-Qeada? Your wrong. Weapons of Mass Destruction....Your wrong. If you want to say....Oil....or money....or revenge, you'll be a lot closer.
 Everybody says it's for the oil but we have no more control of it know then before.
Kuwait? Maybe. I think that war was more to save Saudi.
911? I heard very little justifacation for that. There was one high level terrorist in Iraq and it wasn't even clear if he had done anything to help Sadam.
Weapons of mass destruction? Well there were WMDs that were and are still unaccounted for. Everyone in the UN agreed. Iraq did not conform to the termsof their surrender and that was also common knowledge at the UN. The fact is most of the UN backed what we were doing with the exception of going to war.
Was the evidence overblown? Certainly. The thing is Congress had the same access to the info and they voted to support the war. Kinda hard to impeach him for something they agreed with, not to mention this has been done in every war we have ever been in.
Revenge? I hope to hell so. Sadam tried to assinate a retire US president. He should have never been left in power after that.
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I think I'm going to pop...I really do. To sit here and claim that there is no proof he committed an impeachable offense is just insane. All Bush and his administration has done is lie to public, report false information congress, refuse congressional subpoenas, order illegal search and seizure, illegal wiretapping, obstruct justice, abuse executive powers, going to war without congressional approval, and worse yet...sending over 3,500 american troops to their death over lies, ego, and money.
Right off the bat your not even close on most of your arguements. Maybe you should go back through them while your not having a hissy fit.
#gmstrong
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I imagine that thirty years from now when this administration's actions become declassified, we'll find quite a few impeachable offenses...call it a hunch (and agree or not, I've been pretty right on about this admin. every step of the way).
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I don't want to hear "Just because he's our president, would should support him."
Blind faith in bad leadership is not Patriotism.
Show me where I said anything like that. Show me anywhere where I said I support the way we are fighting the war on terror, or the war in Iraq. Show me where I said I support Bush as president now.
There is no evidence of anything that they can impeach him of, period. Hate him all you want but you can't impeach somebody for being a dolt. If Congress could they would do it in a New York minute.
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Can you tell me why we invaded Iraq? If you say it has anything to do with 9/11...your wrong. Al-Qeada? Your wrong. Weapons of Mass Destruction....Your wrong. If you want to say....Oil....or money....or revenge, you'll be a lot closer.
Everybody says it's for the oil but we have no more control of it know then before.
Kuwait? Maybe. I think that war was more to save Saudi.
911? I heard very little justifacation for that. There was one high level terrorist in Iraq and it wasn't even clear if he had done anything to help Sadam.
Weapons of mass destruction? Well there were WMDs that were and are still unaccounted for. Everyone in the UN agreed. Iraq did not conform to the termsof their surrender and that was also common knowledge at the UN. The fact is most of the UN backed what we were doing with the exception of going to war.
Was the evidence overblown? Certainly. The thing is Congress had the same access to the info and they voted to support the war. Kinda hard to impeach him for something they agreed with, not to mention this has been done in every war we have ever been in.
Revenge? I hope to hell so. Sadam tried to assinate a retire US president. He should have never been left in power after that.
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I think I'm going to pop...I really do. To sit here and claim that there is no proof he committed an impeachable offense is just insane. All Bush and his administration has done is lie to public, report false information congress, refuse congressional subpoenas, order illegal search and seizure, illegal wiretapping, obstruct justice, abuse executive powers, going to war without congressional approval, and worse yet...sending over 3,500 american troops to their death over lies, ego, and money.
Right off the bat your not even close on most of your arguements. Maybe you should go back through them while your not having a hissy fit.
Clearly....we aren't going to get any where. All we've done is engage in a pissing match. I'm sorry, I am. I've been working all weekend to recover some computer systems via backup tape...and I've been very on edge...and angry....and very pissed off at times. I'm sure your a good guy and we'd get along just fine on sunday, drinking beer and watching the Browns. It's clear we've got a difference of opinion on the subject matter, and arguing about it really won't change the outcome of whether Bush is really impeached or not.
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Someone who can, analyze this strand while it is on fire for all of the logical fallacies you can find. The poll is hardly representative and shouldn't be made statistically more than it is. can anyone criticize a liberal without namecalling today? This stale knee jerk stuff sucks at about 4000 psi. If I don't agree with the President or conservative policy in any capacity, I am automatically attacked, insulted, denigrated, and berated. I am a solid American who happens to oppose immorality, unethical behavior, and several other abstract concepts seemingly lost on political leaders who seek out, engender, and actively nurture behavior. Any terrorist would feel successful I suspect if it was known one American had attacked another without provocation so divide and conquer. I'd laugh at what I see when those screaming loudest for common sense and blindly labelling anyone not in aggreement with them commit the most horrific lapses in loogic and reasoning, but it is all so pathetic and self damning. Being American is a full time job; I'm gonna go pray for every troop survivor over there' then I am gonna pray for every one who hasn't Go in peace, childfan, and may the Elf be with you!    
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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If I don't agree with the President or conservative policy in any capacity, I am automatically attacked, insulted, denigrated, and berated.
If you think you've got it bad, try defending him one time and see what happens.
yebat' Putin
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If you think you've got it bad, try defending him one time and see what happens.
When you do,the "usual suspects" act like some street gang in attacking anyone who questions you DC. Even if there is a constructive debate going on about the subject.
If not for that,it usually remains relatively civil.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I'm sure your a good guy and we'd get along just fine on sunday, drinking beer and watching the Browns. It's clear we've got a difference of opinion on the subject matter, and arguing about it really won't change the outcome of whether Bush is really impeached or not.
That is all true (except fot the part about me being a good guy) and if you are ever at DTI while I'm there I will buy you a beer.
#gmstrong
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Funny how the person who attacks the most talks about the "usual suspects" and how everything is civil after insulting Excl and calling him "self righteous". Here's a question for the Bush Haters club that is so gleefully pointing out the accuracy of this poll. How is it that a poll can be an accurate sampling as Brownsbomber claims, when they have 33% of those polled as independants. The actual voting results show that only about 3% of the country votes independant. That in itslef is enough to show just how laughable this poll is.
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Funny how the person who attacks the most talks about the "usual suspects" and how everything is civil after insulting Excl and calling him "self righteous".
Here's a question for the Bush Haters club that is so gleefully pointing out the accuracy of this poll. How is it that a poll can be an accurate sampling as Brownsbomber claims, when they have 33% of those polled as independants. The actual voting results show that only about 3% of the country votes independant. That in itslef is enough to show just how laughable this poll is.
I don't think you understand how the poll works, they don't decide to poll 33% independents, it's done via self-identification. They randomly called 1500 (or whatever number it was) people, and they ask them their party information (with three options it appears in this case, Dem, Rep or Ind.) and this is how things turned out. If we had an unpopular democratic president right now, you would see the percentage of democrats drop, and the number of Republicans and Independents who answered the poll would be higher.
~Lyuokdea
~Lyuokdea
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http://www.independentvoting.org/about/It plainly states that approx. 35% of American voters are independant. That's why WE control the outcome of elections. Not the DEms or the GOP.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Actually, I DO understand how polls work. However, to have a sampling that you use and then project thatt to the rest of the country when it isn't accurately portraying the makeup of the country skews the results. That's my whole point. 33% were independants, whereas regardless of what Pit claims, only 3-5% vote as independants. That's not an accurate sampling of the country to prove anything. That would be like taking a poll about if people believe in God and only conduct that poll with Christians.
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First this is a poll. Not a vote, not really anything.
Second it is as valid as any other poll.
And on the red/blue divide I see here and elsewhere. Pit is being attacked because he cares enough to post A LOT on political issues. The crowd that disagrees with him acts like kids on a playground and gang up. Since he is usually trying to argue with about 4 or 5 people it can be hard to follow all of his posts. I get confused on who he is replying to sometimes. (the post above his? Someone previous).
So Arch and crowd, and Pit, the namecalling is out of line. I'll even apologize for saying you are like a gang of kids, but I couldn't think of another comparsion.
Bush is bad for america. He is bad for the world. He has committed impeachable offenses.....just go back and read DCs post. He has lied, killed american soldiers. He has ignored the constitution. He refused to give intel to congress. He has TORTURED captives. He has weakened our armed forces. He does many blatently illegal actions THAT WE KNOW ABOUT. (wiretapping folks...torture???)
By his actions we are less safe than ever before.
Last edited by AkBrownsfan; 07/09/07 01:12 PM.
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So Arch and crowd, and Pit, the namecalling is out of line.
Hold on......I've posted about 6 times in this thread, never called anyone a single name, and never quoted pit, nor replied to pit. If your statement (quoted) is replying to this thread, perhaps you were mistaken including me, by name, in your generalization.
If you were referring to ALL threads (of a politcal nature or not), then I would state that I treat others as I am treated. I aplogize when needed, and I do not call others names. A difference of opinion is one thing. When someone twists your words into things you never said, felt, or agree with and then they proceed to attack based on that.......well, in my opinion, that's totally different.
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If you read through the thread,you'll see,I believe,that I'm refering to the overall "tactics" that are being used by people such as Limbaugh,Coulter,O'Rielly and that bunch. And how it's been adopted by their "ardent followers".
My assertion is a rather simple one. It's "turning people off". For a while,the put downs and sophmoric ramblings of the "right in media" was a fairly effective tool. But after six plus years of this administration,the people can see that they are just as "unwashed" as the Dems.
In reality,I find it sad and self destructive on their part. Despite anyone's "assertions" Independant voters DO decide the elections. And if the strategy you're using is driving them away,rather than attracting them,it's only serving to shoot themselves in the foot.
I don't want a monopoly in our government. I don't want the Dems controling all three branches of government. Just as I don't want the GOP controling all three branches of our government.
All you need to do is look at recent history to show you that no matter the party,these monopoly's breed corruption. And many will say it has caused the abuse of power in our government as well.
So for what I feel is in the best interest of our nation,I certainly hope to see a more constructive form of political talk upon the part of "the right media" before they doom themselves into obscurity. Because every indication is that the public,at least the independants,are making a clear statement. "Enough is enough"
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=519325Once again,about 3 in ten,or 30%. So people who "know" seem to say between 30%-35% of our voting base ARE independant voters. Pretty basic really...........
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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can anyone criticize a liberal without namecalling today? This stale knee jerk stuff sucks at about 4000 psi.If I don't agree with the President or conservative policy in any capacity, I am automatically attacked, insulted, denigrated, and berated.
Are you serious? I don't see too many people here defending the president here to those extremes. A few people do reply in kind when someone jumps into a totally unrelated thread to bash Bush, though. (There may be a rare exception).
There's a lot of support on this forum for the liberal point of view, even self proclaimed independants here take the left side more often than not. I don't see any conservative leaning posts here going unanswered.
Although some claim it, I don't see anyone here being victimized. Can you point out where you were wrongfully attacked, insulted denigrated or berated? That's against the forum rules, and people have been reprimanded for it.
When someone makes a post on a controversial topic....they should expect spirited debate from the opposing side. A lot of people are passionate about their beliefs...that should be respected, not taken as insults or degredation. Unless there is overt name calling or insults (which are against the rules of the forum and should be reported), take it for what it is: Passionate, spirited debate with opposing points of view.
I thing it is a good thing that people feel strongly about important issues and are willing to strongly defend their beliefs. You have to accept the fact that not everyone believes what you do, and they are not bad, dumb, evil or stupid for doing so (misguided?.....maybe  ).
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Since you CLAIM to be ignorning me but constantly responding to what I say, as usual, I will say that those this, as I'm sure you'll read it. Name ONE TIME that an independent candidate recieve one in three votes. or 305. THEY HAVEN'T. That is the final say, not any surveys, polls, etc. The voting history speaks for itself. "Pretty simple, really".
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Since you CLAIM to be ignorning me but constantly responding to what I say, as usual, I will say that those this, as I'm sure you'll read it. Name ONE TIME that an independent candidate recieve one in three votes. or 305. THEY HAVEN'T. That is the final say, not any surveys, polls, etc. The voting history speaks for itself. "Pretty simple, really".
That's because there hasn't been an Independent Canidate that was worth voting on. Most people who claim to be Independent will vote for who they seem to be the best option of Dem or Rep.
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Yes Coach,since it was quoted (just as the absurd refrance to the 3% was),I can answer your question very honestly and simply.
Independant means "no party affiliation". It means you can vote which ever way you feel is best depending upon the candidates.
It in no way indicates you belong to an "Independant party". It simply means you vote "independantly no matter the party".
Not at all complicated.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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There's a difference between being independent and actually not being affiliated with a party. I am not a member of the Republican Party. Obviously, I'm not an independent. See how that goes? 
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Arch, coach, and Pit, I apologize about saying you were calling each other names. What I meant to try to say is we are attaching each other from either side, and basically saying other people are stupid. Not actual name calling.
If I had to guess, this is exactly what Bin Laden was hoping for.
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No need to apologize, Pit does actual name calling, like calling Excl "self righteous". Then he plays the martyr when someone calls him on it. You can debate with some and even agree to disagree. Unfortunately, Pit has to be right more on the internet more than debate what is important for the nation.
I do agree to a point, though. Bin Laden is loving this division going on in our country and hearing all those that are constantly slamming our country and blaming us for all that has gone on. It's music to his ears.
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If I had to guess, this is exactly what Bin Laden was hoping for.
I'd say our persistant presence in Iraq was far more of "what he was hoping for".
It's bleeding our economy,acting as a great recruiting tool for his cause and dividing the people of America.
He's pitching a shut out.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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http://www.independentvoting.org/about/
It plainly states that approx. 35% of American voters are independant. That's why WE control the outcome of elections. Not the DEms or the GOP.
Of that 35%, I bet the vast majority vote for one party or the other almost always...
yebat' Putin
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/30/AR2007063000859.html?hpid=topnewsWell copy and paste is a function that seems to have overdosed on cheap drugs today................. But this link has what I consider a VERY good breakdown of independant voters and there are basicly five groups. Disengaged,dislocated,disillusioned,deliberators and,as you described, the disguised partisans. I think it is probably the best breakdown and description of the variety of Independant voters I've seen. Well worth a read if you find that topic of interest. But it describes 24% as disguised partisans. And I don't claim to "know how accurate that is". But I do know several people who are self described independant voters. And for the most part,party affiliation has little to do with their decisions in regards to how they vote.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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But I do know several people who are self described independant voters. And for the most part,party affiliation has little to do with their decisions in regards to how they vote.
Party affiliation may not, but platform usually does... even independent voters have their own "hot issues".. If you're an independent who favors the lowest taxes possible, odds are you typically vote republican, if it's the environment you probably typically vote democrat.... while they may not even look at the party of the person they are voting for, if they are involved at all, they probably have a strong tendency to vote one way or the other... now that's just for national office mind you.. most people have different things of importance on a local level than they do on a national level and local elections can be vastly different...
yebat' Putin
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Well,I see that as the very quandry that caused them to be "independant voters" in the first place.
I'll use myself as a prime example. And I'll leave the current administration out of the equasion because IMO,they aren't conservative and do not in any way represent the qualities I find appealing in the conservative mainstream.
My "democrat tedancies"..........
Social issues. Labor,health care,environment,Iraq.
My "conservative tendancies".........
Immigration,fiscal responsability,military investment
My "purely Independant tendancy"........
No monoploy by either party in regards to all three branches of government.
Now these are just a few issues that I've touched upon. But issues of great importance to me. And IMO,it's very hard for me to sit down and write a list of which is the "single most important issue on a consistant basis".
At "this moment in time",immigration and the monopoly issue rate at the top of my list. But depending on changing conditions,the priority changes.
And that's the problem as I see it with most independant voters. IMO-They try to address what they percieve is the most pressing issues at the time.
If the social environment degrades below a certain point,my priority list would change accordingly. And I feel most independants do share one view.............."It's a lose/lose situation".
There is no one party that addresses our belief in the type of government we want. So instead,we claim our Independance so we can address what we percieve as the most pressing issues at the time. And that can and often does change from one election to the next.
I mean IF,it were as you describe,why not just affiliate yourself with the one party that does represent your views on the majority of issues to begin with?
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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We need to do away with voters all together, I'm sure that will solve many problems. I will volunteer my time to rule this country as it's first dictator. I promise I will be a kinder, gentler ruler than everyone that came before me. I will make it a law that a 12 pack of beer can not sell for more than a dollar. I will allow anyone to smoke pot legally as long as they move and smoke it only in California.
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Quote:
I mean IF,it were as you describe,why not just affiliate yourself with the one party that does represent your views on the majority of issues to begin with?
Well, there are a couple reasons I can think of.. in some states without open primaries, if you register as independent, you can vote in either/both primary.. if you register republican you can only vote in the republican primary..
Another reason would be vanity... some people just like to show their own personal enlightenment by claiming they are "independent" ... even if they vote the same way 90% of the time...
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
Another reason would be vanity... some people just like to show their own personal enlightenment by claiming they are "independent" ... even if they vote the same way 90% of the time...
Oh, I think that is so true.......... 
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I've been off the board for a few hours because I was digging up some info from my friends at the Bush/Chaney campaign. I found this little tidbit...
Roy (name deleted to protect the innocent) Bellefontaine,OHIO $2,000.
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That's why I think that they found that to be true of about 24% of independant voters. It's hard for me to accurately say which way I do vote the majority of the time. It's pretty well equaly divided. I know for president,it's a fairly even split. And if hadn't been for the current president,I'm sure it would be a majority of GOP candidates. As far as "local government" (not state) it's overwhelmingly GOP. State government? I'd say the Dems probably get the nod about 60% of the time.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
I've been off the board for a few hours because I was digging up some info from my friends at the Bush/Chaney campaign. I found this little tidbit...
Roy (name deleted to protect the innocent) Bellefontaine,OHIO $2,000.
They're even stealing the frickin' money I've donated to the Romney campaign!!????
Damned crooks!
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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