DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The 4-3 defense and our current roster.

We'll see. I want to see how Tyvis looks, and I'm willing to cut Reynolds some slack since he didn't get added to the roster till after the "final" round of preseason cuts last year. Hard to be the leader on the back end when you weren't there for the install. Throw in McCourty and I think we'll have better FS play than we had last year. Add a pass rush and we might at least be competitive.

Hopefully the additions and 4-3 switch will stiffen up the run D to the point we don't have to throw the safeties in the box as much and they can focus on coverage.

I think they tried and missed. We offered Tony Jefferson a better contract (so did the Jets) and he went to Baltimore.

I would have liked it if we addressed corner and safety in the draft as both positions were very deep.

The front office definitely failed to address some holes in our secondary, whether that turns out to negatively affect our performance remains to be seen (maybe one of the younger guys steps up).

But we did...

Jabril Peppers- SS
Howard Wilson- CB

Do you mean earlier in the draft? Particularly CB?

Add Powell off waivers. Not sure where he is going to play. He played FS at OSU, but Seattle had him playing CB. I think the Browns will be looking at him at FS.

I don't think Peppers is a safety. I don't know what he is. It is not a safety though.

Wilson was a fourth round corner. I would have liked it more if we drafted more corners and higher in the draft.

Powell was undrafted and cut by a team that develops secondary players very successfully. My hopes are not high for him.

Alright.

Based on what I've read (I posted an article in the BBC thread) Seattle waived him reluctantly. He was an organizational favorite but got caught in a numbers crunch.

I do agree with you to an extent. I won't go as far to call it a fail though.

I don't see any position they drafted as not being a need. They all filled a void or a needed upgrade at their position. I believe a CB or FS would have been drafted had Kizer not had fell into our lap at #52.

As with you I'm disappointed they didn't address CB and FS at some early point in the draft, we had so many holes to fill that there's no way they could all be addressed.

There was a lot of value at CB and FS in this draft so we agree that opportunities were missed. I do however feel they followed their BPA. At this stage of our teams development, I can't say I blame them and that's something I've always wanted us to do.

While I feel you may have a point to a degree, it's obvious he was their 54th best player or someone else would have been let go. Any way you slice it, he was at the bottom of their roster.

I think looking back I'm good with what the FO did in the draft. I was gutted we did not grab Desmond King as he fell. There must be something there but he was a 1st round talent post college season and I felt would make a really good ball hawking FS who is actually physical and has an edge. He was a very good CB.

I thought the browns did a good job of drafting Wilson and then signing Harmon. I didn't really see either being a good corner at this level but thought both could be very good free safeties at this level. not great cover skills but fantastic ball instincts. Its why I liked Gipson so much. Just fantastic ball instincts.

I think Nacua has a real chance.

Agreed, I think the thing here is they had to choose between someone who could help immediately in a playoff situation vs. someone they felt had good potential. Either way, the 54th best player on the Seahawks is probably somewhere in the 40s on the Browns.

And sometimes we claim trash is a treasure.

Sometimes I think it works both ways.

Link

This link is in the Body-Calhoun thread. It illustrates why it is simplistic and superficial to decide a player's worth just by the fact that he was released.

On the criticism that the team passed over good secondary talent. There remain several areas of need on the team. All of them couldn't be addressed in one draft. There was a lot of focus on the secondary among posters pre-draft. I get that. But to me it would have been more negligent not to have added two interior DL given our change of scheme to a four man front.

To piggy-back on gaurd's point, this team has had problems in the trenches on both sides of the ball. It looks like the focus of the FO this off-season was to address these issues. The team has other issues, to be sure, but this off-season seems to be about building the trenches.

If Powell was obviously a quality player, he would not have been cut. There is a chance he develops into a better player than he is, but a team that is great a developing players just like him cut him. He also went undrafted.

I am not saying Powell will good or bad. I don't know. I am saying there is a chance Powell is good and there is a greater chance that he will be bad.

Respectfully we disagree. The article outlines the complexities involved at arriving at that decision. If you prefer not to consider the intricacies of roster management in this case, one of the few cases where the many nuanced elements under consideration are available then of course your position makes perfect sense.

I read the article. I just don't think a team would cut a player that they think will be pretty good just because of a numbers crunch. If you like a player, you find a way to keep him on the roster.

Thanks for the insult though!

You took the insult well, LOL. I meant it as sarcasm more than insult so apologies for the offense.

Where we differ is I see a confluence of circumstances where this seems to have been unavoidable.

WE actually disagree on Peppers too. I cut this piece from an article on Dawgs by Nature" link


A "veteran defensive coach" chose the Browns drafting Jabrill Peppers, believe it or not, believing that Peppers being paired with Gregg Williams is a perfect fit and comparable to what Williams did with DB Lamarcus Joyner.

"Everybody kept saying, 'What is this guy?' After watching Gregg Williams' defense, I think that Peppers is the perfect fit for that Joyner role. I can just see [Williams] going there and thinking 'Peppers is a perfect guy in my defense.' ... Peppers can be a freelance playmaker. Let him make his own plays. That's who that guy is in that system. I think it will be a great team for him. Williams also plays plenty of zone defense, so Peppers won't always have to be in man-to-man."

...and the fact that our pass rush needed a major upgrade. Quite possibly an even greater need than addressing the secondary.

I'm looking forward to see this Gregg Williams 43 defense on the field.

Based on how bad the defense was last year they can't help but improve.

They added a freak edge rusher in Garrett.

I believe they've upgraded the DL with Brantley and Ogunjobi.

McCourty add's to the coverage at CB.

Pepper's upgrades the safety spot.

They didn't address every need e.g. FS but the areas they did address coupled with the Gregg Williams should produce better results on the field.

Ogun and Brantley should help with the run D and with interior pressure.

IF they can improve the run def it should allow more opportunities to pass rush in favorable situations.

Pass rush should be better with Garrett bringing heat from one edge and Ogbah from the other and w/ Brantley/Cooper/Ogun bring more pressure up the middle then last year.

More pressure up front should help the secondary which should have better coverage at CB and SS from McCourty and Peppers.

Absolutely...

We all have our opinions, just like we did last year and the year before that and the year before that. Each year, people who try to be realistic are told they are negative and don't get it.

I'm NOT trying to change your mind, but not sure why certain posters can't accept the opinions of others, especially given the history of said posters.

I'm just providing supporting rationale for why I believe what I believe. Every poster can state their position. I will make an honest effort not to slip into the easy personal attacks.I really enjoyed how the Kizer QB mechanics discussion turned out so I'm willing to try to keep it about football. At the same time I will make as complete an argument for what I think as I suspect you will.

I do agree with you that our secondary was horrible last year. I think it was YT that made a post explaining some of the contributing factors. Some of that has been addressed during the offseason. None of it will be proven until the season starts.

Sounds good, guard. I like you. I think you are a good guy.

And, I hope you are right about all of this. Let's just keep it to football, my man.

Much respect,Vers. You always keep it real.

Disagree with you later, LOL.

Well Vers, I like our potential but as of now but I see Danny, Kirksey and Collins as the only guys on our entire defense that doesn't have glaring question marks.

I know Ogbah getting a lot of love but he really never showed me enough to be that excited about. Haden just had surgery on both Groing muscles. Desmond coming off another injury.

Nassib was not the same after the wrist. Went from the best player we had at getting off the snap to maybe the slowest player in the league at anticipation and get off.

Not saying its all doom and gloom because we have probably the most physically gifted defense we have fielded in some time and the 4-3 should help tremendously.

At the end of the day however, all we really have are a plethora of unanswered questions and hope for better than last year.

Can a position switch save Nate Orchard’s career?

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2017/05/21/cleveland-browns-accolades/

The Cleveland Browns may be considering moving Nate Orchard to defensive end, but even a position switch may not be enough for him to earn a roster spot.

The Cleveland Browns have put considerable work into their defensive front seven in the past year.

The club has added defensive linemen Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, Myles Garrett, Larry Ogunjobi and Caleb Brantley in the past two drafts, along with linebacker Jamie Collins via a trade and subsequent re-signing.

They topped it off by bringing in defensive coordinator Gregg Williams in an attempt to wash away the stench left behind by Ray Horton and develop all the young talent into a defense that other teams fear.

The infusion of talent and a change in philosophy under Williams will give the defense a new look and create new roles for certain players.

It may also spell the last chance for another one of former general manager Ray Farmer’s draft picks, as Terry Pluto points out in his column today on cleveland.com:

I hear they are looking at Nate Orchard as a defensive end in the 4-3 defense. The second-round pick was a linebacker in Ray Horton’s 3-4. He may be better suited for defensive end. He was a 4-3 defensive end at Utah when he had 18.5 sacks in 2014. He played only three games last season because of an ankle injury.

Orchard was selected in the second round of the 2015 NFL Draft after finishing second in the nation in sacks. He was to follow in the footsteps of Browns legends Kamerion Wimbley and Barkevious Mingo as the next great college defensive end turned pass rushing terror at outside linebacker.

But just like Wimbley and Mingo, things have not gone as planned for Orchard.

He appeared in 15 games his rookie season, making 11 starts, and finished with three sacks. Orchard only appeared in three games in 2016 before missing the remainder of the season with an injury, finishing the year with no sacks and just two tackles.

With the growth of the passing game in the NFL, teams spend a large amount of time during a game in a nickel defense, which under Williams means that the Browns take a linebacker off the field for the extra defensive back.

After signing Collins to a contract with more than $26 million in guaranteed money, and with linebacker Christian Kirksey becoming one of the league’s rising stars, they are not coming off the field any more than is necessary, which leaves Orchard on the outside.

Even making a more back to defensive end will not guarantee the underperforming third-year player a roster spot.

The Browns kept just seven defensive linemen on the final roster to start the 2016 season (eight if you count Ogbah, who was originally listed as a linebacker. Let’s assume they go with eight when the final roster cut downs take place in September, the first seven spots will likely go to Garrett, Ogbah, Nassib, Danny Shelton, Ogunjobi, Jamie Meder and Brantley.

That leaves Orchard fighting for a spot with 31-year-old Desmond Bryant, who missed all of 2016 with a pectoral injury, and Xavier Cooper, a fellow 2015 draft pick who has done about as much for the Browns as Orchard.

Brown has done a lot of work to clean up Farmer’s mistakes as only have of Farmer’s 18 draft picks currently remain on Cleveland’s roster.

Don’t be surprised if, come September, Orchard’s name is added to that list.

and




Classy "reporter."

Orchard peaked in college. But genius Farmer spent took much time looking at his Street and Smiths or Pro Football Weekly Draft guide he got at Wal Mart to actually look beyond the numbers that Orchard put
Orchard isn't strong enough to push guys back into the QB
Or quick enough to get a first step off the ball.
He's the new verison of of David Veikune

I would agree that Orchard is one the bubble, but I also don't think that he is competing with the DT's mentioned, they and Meder will be competing for that 4th DT.

As of 'now' I see him as the 4th DE.

I invite correction, if it's due...

Do you list Meder as a DE because that was his position designation in the 3-4 alignment from last year? To me, that position, 3-4 DE' is an interior DL position. A 1 or 3 technique in that scheme. Didn't he also take snaps at Nose Tackle?

I haven't gone back to watch any games to confirm this but I'm skeptical that Meder lined up often on the edge.

I'm saying all of this to say that its improbable, to me, that Meder will be asked to provide pass rush from the edge. He could possibly set the edge in a run defense but that seems to be a limitation in comparison to what he would offer in a DT rotation.

I like Meder and think he's an important part of our DL depth but he's doesn't have the speed, length, change of direction or flexibility to play 4-3 DE. I do envision him in a role as a 1-gap penetrating DT and a guy you can use on line stunts.

Goal line as well, and to block kicks maybe. He seems to go hard and I hope he is here for us. Never considered him a pass rusher before. That could just be Horton though. Should be a place for him, I would think.

Are we saying he is a horrible fit?

I think Fl is saying that Meder will be competing for a DT position and that Orchard will be competing for a DE position.

I think both you guys are right.