DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The 4-3 defense and our current roster.

My guess is Meder is penciled in as the direct backup to Shelton as the 1-Tech. I also agree that he is an important part of the d-line and whatever roster decisions need to be made about the interior lineman, it'll come down to the 3-tech options, which there are quite a bit at this point. Gabe Wright was just released (not a shocker or anything) but the list of interior linemen got smaller by one.

I agree with this. I guess I was not the only one who thought Horton left a "stench". Dude was terrible, I think O'neil might have been worse.

This is another development with the defense...

I'm not aware of when this decision was announced or, if it was announced but it appears to be "official" that Kirksey is moving to an outside LB position. The official-ness of it comes from Kirksey acknowledging the move in response to media questions today at The Brown's Foundation Golf Outing.

I guess I had some ideas about how the defense would line up this season. From all that I've read about William's 'D' I expected a 4-2-5 to be our base alignment. With Kirskey and Collins as the two backers and Pepper's as the hybrid-defender. If it will be a traditional 4-3 and Kirksey isn't in the middle then who is likely to be in that position? Or, will they run a 4-2-5 with Collins playing more inside with Kirksey outside? If Peppers is the SS in the 4-3 is he able to perform the coverage duties that you would expect him to be responsible for? This implies a lot of moving parts and I'm not sure how to sort it out...interesting.

I expect a 4-2-5

Ogbah, Bryant, Shelton and Garrett up fron
Kirksey and collins at backer
Kindred and Peppers at safety (we wont see a traditional free safety role)
Taylor in the slot
Boddy and haden wide

Interesting information. Thanks.

As w/all teams, I'm sure we will run all kinds of defenses. Just like last year, we were called a 3-4 defense, but we ran 4 and 5 man fronts all the time.

When we are in a traditional 4-3, I suspect that Kirksey will be the Will and Collins the Mike. Not sure who will be the Sam.

Hmmmmm.........LOL......I really have no idea. Do you think they would play Collins at the Sam and Davis at the Mike?

But again, I wonder how often we will even be in a traditional 4-3?

I think we'll run the 4-2-5 some, but that doesn't explain guard's information about Kirksey playing OLB.

I like him, but I envision him as a late camp cut.

Who are you talking about? I'm confused.

Link

Probably Davis the dude sucked last year. I doubt he makes the team.

Kirksey is probably just referring to the "base" alignment.

You could very well be right. There is just a lot of uncertainty surrounding the defensive scheme and personnel at this point.

I would say that this will be determined by how well the guys we have on the roster can handle keeping us in the base 4-3.

If the guys up front can handle stopping the run, then we probably don't need to cheat up by going 5-2; if the guys up front can also get pressure and the secondary can hold up, then we don't need to cheat guys back there or spend all day in Nickel...... it's going to come down to who we're playing, what they can do, and what we can handle because things like 4-2-5 or 5-2 are things you do hide weaknesses or give help where you're getting hammered.


Just my honest guess.

We REALLY need to draft a stud MLB next year.
If there is a Ray Lewis type, we need to get him.

Do you want to bench kirksey after paying him 20 mil guaranteed or let him walk in free agency?

What does Kirksey have to do with the MLB position?
He's our Will backer.

Most teams don't use three linebackers anymore. If we got another starting

He doesn't think Kirksey is all that good. He would take him off the field.

If getting one new MLB is enough to push Kirksey to the bench, then how good could he really be?

You get what you earn.

Also, the only reason teams would go with only two linebackers is because they are covering for deficiencies in their ability to cover when in a base set.

Right now, however, Davis is our MLB - that can absolutely be upgraded. If we do that and Kirksey can't find a way to get on the field when we go to a 2-LB set, then that's his problem to fix, not anyone elses.

Purp-

Defensive personnel is a response to the offenses personnel.

The league plays 3 wide nearly 60-70% of the snaps...hence defenses playing nickel/dime packages with 2 LBs.

I think that Kirksey and Collins are the best we got, I don't think anyone pushes them to the bench

grand opening/ grand closing.

We don't have a middle linebacker because that position has been nearly phased out of the league. We have two linebackers that will play most of the snaps, Kirksey and Collins.

I believe Kirksey is pretty good and we shouldn't be trying to replace him with a high pick. You don't think he is all that good. That is fine.

Defensive personnel on the field is also just as much a response based upon the capabilities of the defensive personnel available. If your LBers can't run & cover, then you have to find a way with other personnel. If they CAN run & cover, then you have much greater flexibility and don't have to spend as much time getting forced into sub-packages because your personnel aren't up to snuff.

Additionally, if your personnel and scheme are good enough, you can take things away from the offense and begin to force them to react to what you allow them to have.


If you assume that you will always be the one reacting and don't try to improve things because of that, you've already lost.

I don't care how good my LB is in coverage I'm not sticking him the slot against a 190 lb wr. Why are we having this conversation?

There are less linebackers on the field because most team play the majority of snaps with three wide receivers (at least). That leaves a tight end or a running back for the linebacker to cover. You can't have three linebackers on the field if there are three or more wide receivers. The game has changed, that is why there are less linebackers on the field, not because defenses are reacting to offenses.

Cause folks have nottin else to be doing ?

I wasn't giving my opinions on the use of personnel groupings in the modern NFL. Those are facts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. But imho some of the assumptions you make to form your opinions are incorrect.

J/c

Any thoughts on J Mac at FS?

I would like the idea IF he'd actually played S before. My current thought is that having him as one of the top 3 CB is better then having him try to learn the FS position brand new.

If J Mac can be the #1, #2 or #3 corner that in itself would be huge plus for the defense.

McCourty should be playing CB. He should be competing for the 2nd spot or nickel spot. I think he would do well at nickel.

You're right. I just mean I swear I have to explain it every week

Another angle though is we have Taylor, boddy, Caldwell and stribling as developmental talent at cb. Fs has.....Powell and nacua? Potential there but zero proven commodities. At least Taylor and boddy have some production history and trending upwards.

If Mac isn't considerably better than Taylor or boddy(I don't think he is) would he be more useful for us as a fs? As an 8 year cb it'd be much easier for him to jump in at cb in an injury situation rather than jump out of position to fs.

To add another wrinkle unless Haden has a phenomenal comeback it is very unlikely he'll return next season. Mac could be a cheap 1 year stop gap in 2018 as we rebuild cb and fs post haden.

I promise I am not tooting my horn here, but I think I was the first one who posted an article about how often teams play in the nickle. It was last year when we were discussing the prospects and people were arguing about whether a particular player could be a 3-4 DE.

I posted the article to educate people that teams are often in the nickle. It had a chart that showed how the percentage of plays in the nickle had increased each year [I think that is right, but there might have been one year where it wasn't the case.]

Anyway, at that particular point in time, teams were in the nickle almost 66 percent of the time. A couple of posters did not want to hear it because it meant that Bosa would be more valuable than many were giving him credit for.

With all that said..........I think [but could be wrong] that some posters are giving the impression that the Browns will not use 3 LBers. I'm sorry, but I disagree w/that.

Even if we run nickle 65--72 percent of the time, there is still the remaining plays where we will be in a variation of our base defense. I can assure you that we will have 3 LBers on the field during points of the game.

I am not really arguing against you guys. I'm just adding more information for the guys who just read and want to learn. I promise I am NOT attacking or slamming any of your takes. Just adding on. Cool?

Now, this part is just opinion and speculative. I think they are going to play Kirksey outside in the base defense for two reasons:

1. Collins was the lowest ranked defender of TEs in the NFL last year after he arrived in Cleveland.

2. Peppers can't cover very well.

Thus, I think we are going to use Kirksey more in coverage on TEs and RBs. I do need to give this more thought because I predicted he would be the Will. However, as many of you know....that is the opposite side of the formation if the offense has only one TE.

Hmmmm.........not really sure how we're going to manage this. Maybe covering RBs out of the backfield and/or the second TE???

Either way, I don't like that he won't be used as much shooting the gaps in the running game.

Did I ever tell you guys I despised the Peppers' pick? LOL

I was replying to Guard.....his comments abour Meder

Thanks.

No problem. I answer questions.

Good post Vers. My stance on the nickel issue is complicated. Everything you said I 100% agree with. Anyone who's curious who the 3rd lb might be I've never confronted. That's a great conversation actually.

I only come out of the woodwork when someone suggest we use a high pick on a 3rd LBer. I swear it happens weekly. But people don't seem to understand that it simply isn't how team management at the pro level works. You just can't keep your job by spending top 5 and likely top 15 lb money on two starters only to turn around and draft a 1st round Mike who will either sit 70% of the time or cause a massive contract to sit. That's similar logic to us drafting a DE next year in the 1st if ogbah and Garrett had 10 sacks each.

Then you have the fact that our new DC, who I'm very aware of your opinion on, technically ran dime over 90% of the snaps last year. Yes there are roster implications within that but if he's comfortable doing that is it not more likely he'd feel more comfortable in a Nickle with peppers as up safety? I think its much much more likely we may not invest heavily in LB for 3 years(assuming Kirk is resigned) than it is that we may spend large assets on a 3rd lb.

I'm already on record as someone who sees value in Meder. However, I did see a very small video sample of his play with commentary that suggest he was sub par in last year's run defense. A single video doesn't adequately reflect his play but it does raise questions about his fit in this scheme that will need to be answered. So I'll give closer attention to his play
going forward.

Here's the video.