DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Front office ....

i don't remember refs when i joined. hell my wife found the site and signed me in. i do remember 100 post made you a hall of famer. oh by the way i spell almost as bad as you do.

just to bust your bubble of me. i'm 5'10 maybe a buck 80 and 65 yrs old. not a viking, but a mason foreman. and no i don't have blond hair but it is light brown.

I can agree with the guys we kept and agree with the ones we let go.

can't sign them all, especially the ones who are not that good.

Not sure where we don't or can't resign our own talent comes into play.

sounds like we are just talking about Mack and Scwartz again. Just those two.

If that is the case the title should be. "Why didn't we keep Scwartz and Mack".

Obviously you are just looking to stir the pot

101...you could not be more "wrong" with your comments above.

It's not just about Mack and Schwartz...I've posted the list enough that you know your own comments above are false.

Obviously you are just looking to stir the pot and could care less about the Browns front office record for re-signing their own free agents from 2012 to 2017.

Since 2012, the closest Browns fans have gotten to watching our team in the playoffs or a Super Bowl is watching some of these ex-Browns playing in the games that matter, playing for other teams...

TJ Ward, Ahtyba Rubin, Jordan Cameron, Buster Skrine, Jabaal Sheard, Mitchell Schwartz, Tashaun Gibson, Travis Benjamin , Alex Mack, Terrelle Pryor.

...watching these guys after the Browns owner and front office determined these players were "not worthy" of playing for the Browns. The truth is, our owner and front office just "didn't have what it takes" to get these players re-signed.

...while the owners and front office folks of some of the most successful franchises in the NFL "HAD NO PROBLEM" getting contracts done with these ex-Browns...ALL signed to a contract with more successful and more experienced franchises.

Moving on is hard to do when the same issue continues in 2017. Just when you think our owner and front office finally get it...they prove once again, they still don't get it!

Then I read a story pointing out that the WR position could be a weak link in the offense this season...and I have to laugh at how inept the Browns owner and front office are, that they don't have the ability to get contracts done with some of the team's best performing players.

As long as Browns fans accept the excuses and remain satisfied (and silent) with this level of performance from their owner and front office, nothing is going to change. As long as Browns fans accept the fact that some of the best teams in the NFL..Patriots, Falcons, Seahawks, Chiefs, Broncos....the owners and front office folks of these "successful" franchises have no problem getting THESE SAME PLAYERS (ex-Browns) signed to contracts...while Haslam and Sashi FAIL nearly every year to successful complete contracts with some of the best performing members of the team.

As a fan who probably "cares too much" about the Cleveland Browns, I can't and won't let go of this issue because it is the STUPIDIST conduct I have seem from this franchise OR ANY FRANCHISE IN THE NFL.

You know that the owners and front office people of the franchises I named above are laughing at Haslam and Sashi as they continue to "give away some of our best talent".

TJ Ward, Ahtyba Rubin, Jordan Cameron, Buster Skrine, Jabaal Sheard, Mitchell Schwartz, Tashaun Gibson, Travis Benjamin , Alex Mack, Terrelle Pryor.

...watching these guys after the Browns owner and front office determined these players were "not worthy" of playing for the Browns. The truth is, our owner and front office just "didn't have what it takes" to get these players re-signed.

...while the owners and front office folks of some of the most successful franchises in the NFL "HAD NO PROBLEM" getting contracts done with these ex-Browns...ALL signed to a contract with more successful and more experienced franchises.

Any comments on my post tabber ... would love to hear them ...

I am not nearly as impressed with the off season as most .. not even close ... BUT .. they did nothing truely MORONIC and they made moves that make sense ... U can see what there trying to do here ... that in and of itself is massive improvement over the last 20 years .. *L* ... before I get to the draft ... lets look back and then we'll get to the present ..

The Plan - loved the plan .. they truely did a re-build .. IMO the right way ... they tore it down and truely gutted it .. there wasn't much to gut ... *L* .. no screwing around with a 1/2 or 3/4 gut so we win 3 or 4 games this year ... they GUTTED IT ... i said around week 12 or so last year that I LOVED THE PLAN ...

They made mistakes ... IMO the two big ones were letting Schwartz and Gabriel go ...

- Schwartz was MORONIC ... just stupid .. we still don't know if we have a RT .. just f'n STUPID .. my blood pressure just rose .. thats how bad i think it was .. *L* ..

We want to sign our own .. we want young guys with a future .. he fit both .. he comes back and we told him .. NAAA .. HELL WITH U ... made no sense them and still don't ..

- Gabriel scares me cause them and Hue got to see him in training camp .. his quickness and speed jump off the screen at u .. how the heck they did not see that is beyond me .. and i don't want to hear the BS excuses from the "fans that think they can do no wrong .. this was HORRIBLE .. hes a PLAYMAKER that can score every time he touches the ball .. by game 12 last year .. everytime he got the ball in his hands .. u moved to the edge of your seat anticipating what could happen ..

Bengi was way overpaid and not that good .. if they re-signed him it would have been a major mistake IMO ..

Gipson didn't want to be hear and i am not a huge fan of his .. well worth letting him walk and preserving the cap space ..

Mack didn't want to be here .. and i can't blame him .. not sure why some keep holding on to the fact he came back to give us a "chance" ... he listened .. decided he wanted to win more ... None of us have a clue weather they offered him the same, way more or way less for Mack .. not sure even way more would have mattered .. look what Hawkjust did with NE .. he turned down more money to sign with a team for a chance to win and he may not even make the team .. it depends on how u privatize winning and what your willing to do for it .. Joe T is the opposite end of that spectrum .. he's rather stay in a place he loves and not up root his family ... its WIN ... what's important now ... thumbsup

I was fine with the first trade down last year ... would have rather took a player at 8 i believe it was .. but we did get a ton of picks for moving down again and still came away with one of the top 3 recievers in the draft .. not a fan of Coleman's but i get it .. lets see who he is this year ... lets hope I'm wrong about him .. LOVE the plan here .. EXECUTION is very questionable .. *L* ..

The rest of the draft .. very un-impressed with it ... to many CHOIR BOYS and "stat leaders" for my liking .. the 2nd rnd DE looks like he could be a pretty good player ... he really came on at the end of the year .. the rest ... meh ...

We have to see how these guys improve ... lets hope they did much better job than i think they did .. thumbsup

Then we got a gift in Collins ... and one of the reasons he was given to us is because we were so bad Billicheck knew he couldn't come back to haunt him in the next few years ... that and Bill's a vindictive pr**k ... *L* .. he sent him to last years version of FOOTBALL HELL .. sorry folks .. its a fact .. and one that had nothing to do with this FO unless u want to bash them forthinking long term instead of 1/2 asking the tear down .. I'm a LONG TERM kinda guy ..

Re-signing is another story .. that dude put himself ahead of the team in NE .. PERIOD .. if u can't see that u prolly should quit reading now cause U have NO CLUE what happend in NE or u don't know football .. he had a roll to fill .. he didn't like it and just did whatever the hell he wanted .. ASSIGNMENTS BE DAMMED ... its about ME ...

Thats the bad part of re-signing him .. the bright side to me was we threw MONEYBALL out the window .. he's getting paid as an elite LB and he's not there .. he may be under Williams .. we OVERPAID for him and that was a GREAT SIGN to me ... then in FA we really threw MONEYBALL out the window .. we threw a ton of cash at almost every top tier FA ... thumbsup

Collins is also young and has atheletic ability U can't teach ... lets hope he has the fire to prove Bill wrong .. if not, he may fizzle out now that he's got paid ...

We got the best OLman on the market .. he was way overpaid but thats the nature of FA .. we threw a ton of money at him and he came over .. we got the dude from GB .. he played multiple positions and was oft-injured and a back up ... we have no clue if he will be a good everyday center and counting on him for more than 1/2 a season is pretty optimistic .. he has never stood healthy and he's never been a full time starter .. when he's there .. he will be an upgrade but who knows how big of one ..

Pryor for Britt is a downgrade .. but there was nothing else out there and there's no way we should have signed Pryor for what he was looking for .. Pryor wanted the moon and no one wanted to pay it .. once he decided on a "prove it" contract we were eliminated from the equation unless your a moron ... *L* ..

Don't blame them for that one ..

The draft ...

I would have taken Mitch .. but garrett was the consesus #1 pick and was the right pick for this franchise now ... i was not at all impressed with his tape .. not at all .. lets hope he's a different player than i saw on tape ... u can't fault them for this pick ..

The major mistake they may have made was passing on Hooker at 12 i believe ... can't remember the exact spot .. i didn't like the trade down ... am not a fan of peppers at all .. but this is a perfect fit for him .. he is a really good athelete and he could excel in Williams D .. we'll see how it works out .. they aquired more picks that could be used as ammo to trade up for a qb next year or could be part of a trade for your boy JG ...

I also like the recent hire of a football guy that will be in the room every day with these guys .. we needed that IMO ..

I did not like this FO at all .. I'm warming up to them .. they have adapted and seem willing to change on the move as they see there weaknesses ..

The jury stills out .. but i can't look at anything they did this year and say .. WTF .. that makes NO SENSE ...

It all boils down to AQUIRING TALENT .. the jury's still out on that ... hopefully they can do it .. cause next year were going to have a TON OF CAP SPACE AGAIN and we are LOADED WITH HIGH QUALITY PICKS again ...

Lets see how it pans out ... there's FINALLY a LEGITE reason for the fans to have SOME HOPE ... now lets see how it works out over the next couple years ...

Vers asked me a question about the FO in a PM .. i started to reply and it turned into this .. it got long and damm was it good .. *LOL* .. so i felt obligated to share it ( ) since I haven't weighed in on this in a awhile ... this is a take somewhere in between mac's consistent bashing and the "fans" sticking up for them no matter how STUPID what they did was ...

I did not like this FO ... Thought it was HORRIBLE ... we had NO FOOTBALL GUYS .. NONE ... it was all analytics based guys and then we brought in Mr. MONEYBALL who had zero experience in football over the last .. i dunno 10 - 20 years .. this looked like a tool for him to prove how smart he is and how great moneyball and analytics were ...

They jury's still out on how it will work out ... one of the reasons i came back was because we were loaded for bear with cap space and we had draft picks out the [censored] season, a whole year, to evaluate themselves, make adjustments, do their college evaluations and go into this draft much better prepared than last year. The jury is still out.


This is something that makes me think only me and you truly get. Everyone talks about a rebuild. We've heard it a thousand times regarding the Browns as well as other teams. "They're in rebuilding mode", we hear. But are they? Have we ever been truly in rebuilding mode. No. We've always been in 'fire-the-coaches-let-a-few-players-go-then-try-to-replace-them-in-FA-and-the-draft-and-try-not-to-create-too-many-holes-and-move-on-calling-that-a-rebuild', mode.

This FO have done true rebuild. Tear it down to nothing, get rid of highly paid veterans, purge the roster of players who have been losing year upon year, (not even so much as because they lost, rather because due to all the losing their mental state and the culture of the team was in a deep rut. Even the good players were caught in it and once in that mind-set how do you change it other than by winning and how do you win from that mind-set? Get rid of them. Save that money for the future, get those comp picks, for the future, and move on. (This too is Moneyball).

Last year every draft pick made the 53 man roster. Not because they were always better than those they replaced but because they hadn't experienced the losing as did those they replaced. It's probably the quickest way to change the culture, get rid of the culture.

They didn't spend big in FA because the FO hadn't been here long enough to evaluate what they really had. We knew because we've been here through it all. But they hadn't. So their FA participation was small.

I'm not a betting man but I'll state it anyways, I bet we keep nearly every draft pick from this draft on the 53 the same as we did last year. That's 14 picks last year and 11 this year adding up to 25 players. That's 25 players out of 53 who were never a part of out losing culture. Half the roster will have flipped the culture. Add in Collins, the FA's we brought in last offseason and the FA's we picked up this year along with the draft and over half the roster is made up of players who were not and never were a part of that 'woe is me, losing culture'.

Phil Savage identified changing the culture as a number one priority. I found that profound. Up to that point I hadn't considered the toll all the losing and roster changes took on the players. I thought yea!!, Phil gets this. He will change the culture. But he didn't. He tried to make the team better but it's hard to fix the personality of the dog who has been beaten all his life, especially if you're the one who's been beating him. Better to pass him off onto someone who wants to take that on and get you another dog, and then treat this one better.



Totally with you on the Schwartz thing. Brutal. I'm not as high on Gabriel as you are but he's a player. The year before he suffered some injuries and maybe a concussion. He was expected by me to have a break-out year but regressed due to injuries. This year he is back on track and seems to have been one to keep. All the rest I agree with you.

No, I don't know for certain that Mack wanted to get out of here. But when I look at the deal he took from the Jags, (that we matched), it appears that he wanted out of here two years earlier but was thwarted by contract language and was forced to stay. As soon as that time passed he left again. This time for sure. I'll not go searching for a link but IIRC we offered him competitive money vs Atlanta and he chose to go there. Honestly, where would you rather play, in Cleveland to go 1-15 or to Atlanta and play in a Superbowl. Even though that had to be the most painful Superbowl to play in and lose in that manner, my guess is that Mack will not ever doubt his choice.




I was good moving down last year as well. I was not then and am still not high on Wentz. Not at #2. For anyone who thought we never should have taken a QB at #1 in 1999 because we had no talent to surround him with on an expansion team then here is the same scenario, high draft pick at QB added to a no-talent team. My guess is it would play out the same.


Oh boy, another chance to talk about Moneyball. I think naming it Moneyball was mis-cast. It's a great name if you're selling a book or a movie but Moneyball is NOT always about MONEY. It's a strategy, a plan, a way of thinking about a team that until DePodesta came along no one was doing. It has to do with changing the culture of the team, with changing the methods of thinking about certain aspects of the team, of getting away from the 'old school' way of thinking which was done simply because that's the way it had always been done. It's about starting out maximizing on assets and getting the payroll down to free up money for future moves. Of course, in baseball it's easier to evaluate players using certain stats whereas in football it's all but impossible but that doesn't change the fact that the business model fits exactly to some aspects of a team's operation regardless of the sport.

The misconception right off the git is that Moneyball is all about Money and Stats. That just because DePodesta came here we will now be doing all our player evaluations based on analytics mainly because: Moneyball. It just ain't that way. If we know you can't use analytics in football the same way you do in baseball then certainly, I mean without a doubt, they know this as well, especially DePosesta. Nonetheless, people keep bring this up as though the Browns have no clue about this, like they were born in a cave and just woke up and stepped outside today so therefore they have a lot to learn, you know, stuff that we already know about the business that made DePodesta a rich man. I'll bet when the idea of football was first proposed to DePodesta his initial thought was, "You can't use analytics in football the way you do in baseball. The numbers aren't there." But he did see ways in which some aspects of the thinking behind turning a team around could be incorporated in a fruitful way. I think we are seeing some of it now. The jury is still out on if it holds up longer-term but at times it looks promising.




Garrett shows up in film more often than the stats will explain. He is disruptive and creates opportunities for his teammates to make plays. He was used like that a lot at Texas A&M. I'm not sure how Williams will use him but I can't wait to find out.

At pick 12 I totally expected us to take Hooker. I was on the edge of my seat hoping to see him fall to us. The Browns, rightfully so, decided that beyond a pass rusher our greatest need was at FS. They showed that when they offered Tony Jefferson huge money in FA, (he went to Baltimore for less), so it only stood to reason that if Hooker is there at 12 the Browns would take him. If we had gotten Jefferson the 12 pick would have had so many possibilities but oh well, let's hope Hooker is there when we pick. THERE HE IS AT 12!!! Oh the Football Gods must love me! Then we don't take him. What the Hell?! A trade?! And all the down to 25?! The football Gods are mocking me!!

So we end up with Peppers who I'm not so high on. He's a hell of an athlete and can tackle. I only hope Williams can get the goods out of him. Oh, and that quote from Williams that he wanted Garrett and Peppers, he's lying. He wanted Garrett and Hooker. Mark my words.

Njoku I don't know about. He looks like a WR to me. If he can learn to catch consistently I'm sure he'll be okay.

I read in a couple of places that the Steelers coveted both Peppers and Njoku. Seems that could be part of the reason we took both. Is that true? If so, if both players work out to be contributors then good. Getting good players while crapping on Pittsburgh is a good thing.

I'm ok with Kizer. It at least shuts up the media about Cleveland needing to pick a QB high while at the same time doesn't tie team to the death with him. We can still pick a QB next year if we think we need to do so.




All good takes, all of it.

One last thing on rebuilding. What most teams call rebuilding, and the Browns have done this for years, is actually remodeling. Instead of tearing it down to nothing and rebuilding they tear it down to the studs and remodel using the same structure. It's the reason no one's "rebuilding" ever does them any good and the reason Cleveland's rebuilding has never done them any good. You can't just remodel over the same structure. It's that structure that got them into this mess and tearing it down and starting over is the only fix.

What the Browns FO is doing this time is tearing it down to nothing and rebuilding it starting with a new structure. I don't think any team has ever done it to this degree. They all talk about it but for whatever reason, be it fan pressure, ownership pressure or job security they fall short of making a real difference. Those remodeling plans take forever to pay off if they ever do. Real rebuilding pays off sooner but things do get a lot worse before they get better. DePodesta warned Haslem about this in the beginning. Without Haslem understanding this before he signed off on it it never would have happened. This is why I think Haslem will give them the time-frame they require to finish what they started. It's also why I think Hue will be the HC throughout the process.

Not understanding this rebuilding thing is what has some fans (mac) so upset about losing those few talented players. They don't understand that the FO never intended to build upon that which already existed. They never intended to keep those guys and add to them as they remodeled the team. Their intentions all along was to totally start over, to lower the payroll and maximize assets to be used in the real rebuild which is underway now. Understanding that makes all the angst over past players a moot* point.


*Moot may refer to: In American law: a point in a case is said to be moot when it has been made irrelevant, and therefore, does not need to be considered further. (mac, are you reading this?)

]For me we also got to see the Negative for it to be realistic.
Every year is a new season. I don't care what position.
Most players PROGRESS especially from year one to year two is the biggest leap. So I have high hopes.

Key for me with Kessler is his Accuracy one of the most accurate thrower we have had here in all this muck on the QB position. Knowing the game having it slow down for him is important. Will it happen...don't know but he seems to be the type that keeps on progressing until it does.

Kizer could be the future cause of his mad skill set. But he has a lot to learn.

But yeah I get where you are coming from and don't take it as an insult that you fandom that way. I got my way too.

I'm just going to say that I am NOT going to debate w/tab, Memphis, WSU, 32, Vambo, bleed, etc.

Good stuff Dub. Agree in whole.

Diam. I read ya. More good stuff.

Question? Did you see a difference between drafts and FA from last year to this year with this year being year 2 of Depodesta? He was pretty much silent last year.

I want to talk more, but NOT in these JOKE FO threads. I just don't read stupidity.

I LOVE the aggressive approach we're taking. This draft was a flipping BLAST to watch.

Like many, when Hooker was there at 12 I'm screaming YESSSSSS. Then the trade. OK. I understand why. We're LOADING UP for a potential QB in 2018. Be it Garrapollo, Cousins or a Top 3 pick. The move was SMART.

Man we're loaded with picks and Cap Space again.

And snagging THREE guys that Pittpuke was reportedly HOT on was outstanding. Peppers. Njoku. Kizer. Love it.

Now.

The Cavs have some words to shove down Draymond Green's THROAT. Get r Done Bron!!!!

I know all think my posts have no cred cause I'm a homer ...

I am way more optimistic about the Browns FO than I was a year ago. I think we had a decent off-season. Far better than last year. I don't like all the moves, but I liked quite a few of them.

I have questions about the plan. They are:

--building a culture of losing w/young players can have a long-lasting affect.

--too many contracts coming to fruition at the same time.

--not enough vets who came from winning programs on the roster to guide the newbies.

--tearing down something is much easier than building something of value.

I am going to handle this in one swoop. They failed. Period. I know that I am older than the generation that has excuses for everything and it's always someone else's fault, but bro.......in my opinion, it's a bottom line business and we lost good players.

In fact, if they didn't want to be here like you ---and a ton of others---claim.......that is even worse than if we didn't try to keep them because the players are saying this organization sucks ass!!!!

Now, here is how I view the losses:

Mack: Huge loss. Devastating.

Schwartz: Another huge loss.

Benji: Smart move. I would not have given him the money, either.

Gipson: This one is so underrated by all y'all. Huge loss. The guy played FS for us and we don't have one. He even played cb for us. Total team guy and we screwed him. He was something like 26 when we let him walk. Dumb, dumb mistake. Creating a hole when you have a ton of holes.

Robertson: No one talks about this one, but he did very well w/the Saints until he got hurt. Good cover LBer and he made a lot of tackles in NO. Dumb.

Gabriel: Some say he never did anything here. That's not true. He had a very good year w/Shanny here. He got deep often. Hoyer under threw him a lot. People say that it was either him or Hawk, but why did freaking Jordan Payton make the roster? 1 catch..........3 yards........1 suspension. LMAO

Pryor: Huge loss. I think he is a better player than DJax and the latter got big money. I ain't placing all the blame on the FO, but perhaps they should have talked to him after he came back the second time w/his tail between his legs.

I liked the trade down too. However, after seeing Wentz play, I realized I was wrong.

With that said........it wasn't all that bad because we got a lot in return.

I did not like the second trade down at all. I did have Coleman as the first WR off the board, but the guy was a dud last year. Just like all Baylor WRs.

I pimped Ogbah before the draft and he was one of my 3 guys to pick at the top of the 2nd. Nice pick.

I liked the Nassib pick because I thought he could be a situational pass rusher. Hated the Kessler pick. Hated the Louis pick. Absolutely loved the Higgens pick. The rest were blah.

Quote:
Robertson: No one talks about this one, but he did very well w/the Saints until he got hurt. Good cover LBer and he made a lot of tackles in NO. Dumb.


Never really thought about him .. no clue what happend so i won't comment .. losing him did hurt .. no doubt ....

I agree, I think Robertson was just a part of tearing down and getting rid of the losing culture. I think Kirksey is a big Improvement and only getting better.

I agree w/all this. I will just say that I support the FO on this one. Guy has talent and I'm glad we re-signed him.

I liked the two offensive linemen, but unless Greco is hurt...I don't quite get paying big money to Zeitler. Greco is so underrated.

The C from GB is hurt a lot. We'll see.

Loved keeping Bitonio and Crow. Good moves.

Overall, I'm disappointed because of what could have been.

Unlike you, I loved the Garrett pick and am so happy the FO didn't screw it up and take Trub.

I agree w/you on Hooker. Stupid move. I do not like Peppers at all.

The kid from Miami could be a weapon, but the drops are worrisome.

The fact that we did not improve our secondary enough bothers me.

I don't like the hire because I think he is an abrasive ass who can cause friction w/in the ranks.

However, I have hope for this regime. Much more so than I did w/H and H and Farmer. We have some smart guys and we've made some good moves. I am cautiously optimistic.

Lmao. You're so transparent it's sad.

pit, i think Pryor being on a show me one year contract gives us a chance to watch him. If he develops we can go after him aggressively. we have the cap space and he seemed to like playing for hue. that may be where our next number one receiver comes from.

While I don't disagree with you for the most part, he does sometimes make a valid point.

If you actually believe we are set at the WR position, more power to you. If you don't believe we need an upgrade at the WR position, more power to you.

But I haven't seen anything on the field of play that suggests we don't need more talent at the WR position. I don't believe that Coleman and Britt aren't in need of upgrade.

Last year this FO drafted heavily in a weak WR class and so far it has shown. Now while I think they did better this year in the draft, they didn't take advantage of a talent heavy CB class.

To have optimism about this FO is fine. I have some cautious optimism because I believe they improved from year one to year two.

But to pretend they're perfect and dismiss every question someone has about them is quite naive IMO