DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Patriotic School Routines-Question for Teachers and others

Well, in my last post I mentioned something about the USA and it reminded me of something that really ticked me off in a Vermont classroom.

Anyway, I was in a Middle School Classroom once a week for a semester of college and noticed that in the morning they didn't say the Pledge of Alliegence or play the Star Spangled Banner. Instead they did these morning excercises This really ticked me off as I feel that the national pride that this country has is severely lacking and needs to be indoctrinated into children's minds from a young age. Being an American is something to be proud of and to acknowledge.

Is it just me or should these things be mandatory in every public school? You're in the United States, you go to a United States Public School, you honor your country. Period.

As there must be a few teachers on this message board, I'm wondering what you guys think about this and what your school's policy is

We weren't allowed to say it when I was in school. I think it is terrible. If you don't like our country enough that you can't even stand up and say the pledge of alliegance, then go live somewhere else!!!

PS- This isn't a good day for me to be commenting on this, because I'll offend alot of people. I got a friend leaving for Afghanistan this week, and we just played a softball tournament as part of a "going away party" or whatever you want to call it. But, at the softball tournament, they made an announcement about him leaving for Afghanistan and probably half the people in the park didn't even clap for him. It was VERY irritating to me.

So, I guess all I have to say on this topic is.... SUPPORT YOUR COUNTRY OR GO LIVE SOMEWHERE ELSE!!!!

That's fine Phil, but...........

1) There is no flag in the room.

2) There is no time set aside for students whom want to say the pledge and listen to the national anthem to hear it.

If a student doesn't wanna do it they can sit down and do whatever they want. But it's no reason to not give the students who want to a chance to do it together in unison instead of having to practice it at their house or something.

Our government might not represent us as people, but that doesn't change the fact that we are American and should be proud of it. Big deal, you think Bush and other elected officials suck. Is that any reason not to be proud of your heritage and all the great things we've done. I'm happy I'm from this country, whether I agree with our elected officials or not.


My buddies weren't allowed in bars in France because of our nationality. One of them asked the bouncer if he spoke German, the guy said no. And my buddy said, "Your welcome" and walked away. Reason why is because WE bailed them out of two fights. And they couldn't win the third against Germany either (19th century, but whateva). And if France wasn't so stupid with Vietnam, that probably wouldn't have been such a problem either. If I knew that they'd spit on us now, I'd rather us just let them get their butts handed to them anyway.

Put them in forced labor and get rid of this 35 hour work week and rediculous unemployment they got goin over there (lol, JOKE)


Point is, there's no reason to be ashamed to be from the United States. It's got nothing to do with politics, it's where you come from.

remember when we use to say majority rules? Now it's bow to the minority.

It is a local decision that the school board makes. Why the Pledge would be removed from school settings is strange but apparently what they wanted to be made procedure.

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2) There is no time set aside for students whom want to say the pledge and listen to the national anthem to hear it.

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Make it after school and see how many stay after.

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Make math optional and see how many show up. That's the nature of kids, to take the path of least resistance and to put fun above all else... That's fine, that's pretty much how it should be.

I think there should be a flag in every room and I think the Pledge of Allegiance should be said over the PA every morning... if a kid doesn't want to say it, they should not be punished or compelled to say it, but it should be said every day.

Of course I think kids should get out of school with a better understanding of how our government works, our history, etc. too... but that's just me.

Do they even teach government in schools anymore, and I don't mean a 5 day look at the government in social studies, I mean a full blown government class?

I grew up saying the Pledge every day as school,,, I didn't exactly turn out badly..

Never been to Jail, haven't blown anything up, haven't beat children or woman, don't steal anything, pay my taxes, pay my bills, lead a relativly quiet but productive life and I'm happly married to a wonderful woman.

I've got a loving family made up of a sister and her family, a brother and his family and my mom is still going ball room dancing and works 10 or so hours a week in retail at age 81.. (she won't quit the job,, says it keeps her young,, who knew)

I don't have fantasies of killing or being killed. I don't want to hurt anyone, I don't think that saying the pledge did anything negative to me or my mind.

So, what's the reason again that we don't let the kids say the pledge every morning in school?

Personally, I think we are letting the insane run the asylum! JMO however!

The problem with saying the "Pledge of Allegiance," isn't in the Pledge itself, or a support for the government. The problem is in the phrase, "under God."

When I was in school, we were not allowed to say the Pledge because of the "under God" phrase in the pledge. The debate in our school system was, the should the kids say the Pledge, the way it was originally written...."one nation, indivisable, with liberty and justice for all," or no Pledge at all...

Rather than say the "old Pledge," our school board opted for no Pledge at all, as the "old Pledge" was no longer the "Congressionally approved version...." and the "Congressionally approved version," was no longer legal....

Later I went to parochial schools, and the pledge issue was no longer a problem. We could say the Pledge of Allegiance, and pray, as long as nothing paid for with State or Federal Funds, were used in a manner that allowed us to do it....

They should Florida. It was mandatory to graduate when I was in school.

Although if a student really WAS educated in history of our nation,the vision our forefathers had for this nation?

And then looked at our government today? You'd have a lot more angry Americans.


JMHO

It is frustrating. I just retired from public instruction in Ohio after 30 years. We said pledge every day. Most participated. This was only allowed after extended debate, legal opining, and parental canvassing, etc. to allow the pledge to be kept. I was appalled by that. Then the stuff about public prayer at graduation where I was part of the faculty Honor Guard. All kinds of rules about that. Round two was the renewed debate (which nobody was calling for, I might add) about "under God" surfaced. Now I was appalled all over again. we were specifically told we could not question, mention, admonish, and certainly not berate, dicscipline, or admonish any student who chose not to rise, not to participate, or acknowledge with respect what was vitally American going down. One fat, stupid slob of a girl did not rise. She was part of our AFJROTC program. Just sat and ate during the pledge. I did question her. And I had to teach biys about removing hats, and both sexes about shutting up while it was being said. Arrogant disrespect is not rampant in the school because most accommodate it properly. But it is much too familiar for my taste, and I did what I could to say it loudly daily and model the respect and share the experience pridefully.
Parents should insist; I learned this in Cub Scouts and saluted. My generation was permitted to sign up for Bible class in public classrooms (with permission), and we did the pledge and the Lord's Prayer daily. Somewhere I became a second-class citizen; I am old, 50 is well past. But I am then uniquely qualified, in my own self-important opinion, to offer some judgments based on my own experiences. I see more disrespect, more poor parenting, less respect for idealism and support for this country each year. I see more reliance on schools to pick up pieces and solve social problems on one hand while politicos and and courts who insist on sculpting society also legislate against teaching moral values, national pride, and patriotism. We have sytematically neglected Ohio's public schools and instructors, and more. somewhere we became the enemy. Our lawmakers are building, but attacking public instruction. neglecting budget, etc. Our administrators choose not to offer effective discipline; we fail to offer an attractive wage; and accountability is limited to the classroom teacher abandoned in a trench, alone with idealism misplaced and long under-appreciated, when the true culprits are neglected: superintendents, boards of education, our Ohio Supreme Court, and especially the state house, both parties. None of these has lacked for raises, and all have not a plateful, but a buffet. And the national No Child laws just distract from the vital and endemic issues which will force them on Ohio if somebody doesn't provide a new urgent sense of priority. That is PART of why I gave up and retired, my wife as well. after a combined 68 years of trying to help kids. I have no real regrets yet, but I am bitter about lousy administration, and crappy politicians.
Go in peace, childfan, and may the Elf be with you!

JWs were not allowed to say the pledge because of religious reasons. I was fine with that. I knew only one but she sat quietly while we said it. I have no problem with that or the pledge for that matter. I see things as more of an attack on "faith" then religion. It's humanism or bust. There is no higher power permitted.

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The problem with saying the "Pledge of Allegiance," isn't in the Pledge itself, or a support for the government. The problem is in the phrase, "under God."

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Personally, I don't think there is an issue with saying "under god"! I mean they aren't saying under the Catholic God, or the Jewish God, or the Muslim God, are they? So all the students have to be taught is that God is different for different faiths!

About the only kids that might find it wierd to say "under god" are those that are raised to beleive there isn't any god at all! And then, all they have to do is be allowed NOT to say either that phrase or to not say the entire pledge!

I don't think saying the pledge has to be forced upon anyone, but by the same token, I don't want NOT saying it forced upon me!

I hate changing things for the few, when the masses like it the way it is. Again, to me it's the insane running the asylum!

BOOOOO!!!!!!

If you don't wish to cheer my opinion, that's fine, no reason to boo.

Jehovah's Witnesses also object to the pledge. They believe that pledging to a flag is a form of idolatry.... To avoid lawsuits, and money expenditures in fighting the suits, most school boards avoid all the problems by not saying the pledge.

It's not so much the insane running the assylum, as it is people standing up for the Guarantees of the Constitution. Free Speach, and Freedom of Religion. The Freedom to have no religion, is considered the same as worshiping as you please...

The fact that some religions feel that pledging to a flag, not the country, is a form of idolatry does make sense.... Constitutional guarantees are for all, not just for a religious majority, or people who see things in a certain way.....

When I was in public schools, I was upset when our Christmas Cantata was cancelled due to religious overtones.... but I understood the reason for it.

Your not pledging to the flag itself, but what the flag represents.

Jehova's Witnesses probably pray to a cross don't they or some other symbol of God?

Like I have been saying for years. Our shool systems have gone to hell in a handbasket, and it's not the teachers fault.

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Our shool systems have gone to hell in a handbasket, and it's not the teachers fault

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Well of course it is the fault of the teachers, administrators , school boards, janitors, hall monitors , lunch ladies...someone, hell ANYONE should take the blame lest it falls on the shoulders of the students and the parents of those students.

If you want blame for why our schools have gone downhill, there is plenty of it to go around.

Let's start with the state mandated GRE's (grad. req. exam) and all the proficiency tests.......what has this done? It's caused schools to "teach to the test", not to just teach.

Throw in the fact that schools now have "curriculum directors" - people that, basically, tell the teachers what to teach based on what they are told at the state meetings. (our schools curriculum director was paid $65,000 per year - and our town is around 4200 to 4400 people - class sizes vary from 95 to 125 pretty much).

Next, throw in the state funding, or lack of. (pathetic that our state congress can't get something done with that - pathetic). Then, add in all the hoopla created if not all kids can be taught equally (makes it almost impossible for teachers to get every kid "equal", although that's what the state wants)

Next, add in lack of parent participation, political correctness, school districts constantly asking for new levies thereby alienating the school district voters........then add in the "new school" initiative in which the state tosses money around to basically all school districts saying "build a new school, and we'll cover half of it, 2/3....it varies) and then when the schools, brand spanking new, get built, the schools find out that "oops, we can't run this school on the budget we had, we need more money from an operating levy".............

Schools can't discipline students anymore. The schools fear of lawsuits for doing pretty much anything.........man, the list goes on and on.

Are the teachers at fault? No, for the most part. (I say that only because teachers that strike because of pay issues - I blame the teachers for that in MOST situations) You don't like your pay? Find a different job. And one last thing on teachers, I'll vomit if I hear anyone say "they aren't paid enough".......who is paid enough? And further more, on this issue, they only work work about 8 months out of the year (and don't give me the crap about "oh, they work after hours, and on their 2 week christmas break, and on spring break, and all summer - big deal - unless you work in a factory, we all do that)

But, that's all I blame teachers for - and it isn't that much. I respect teachers, I just don't think they have it as tough as they think.........so, while not complete, there is a partial list (and the teachers belong at the bottom of it).

I hate when people say teachers aren't paid enough, too. They make what, around $25,000 a year? 3 months off in the summer, not to count 2 weeks off for Christmas Break, and a week off for Spring Break. 3 days off for Thanksgiving. And that's not even counting the countless number of days that school is out for whatever other reasons. When you think about it, they get paid about $25,000 a year, for working about 7 and a half months. I'd say they get paid fine.

I hear you Halfback, and I understand what you are saying... makes sense..

However, in order for someone to have thier rights upheld, does it mean that I have to allow mine to be trampled on? I think not! and that's all I've been trying to convey.

Personally, I have no problem with Johnny and Mary not saying the pledge...no problem whatsoever! I do have a problem with not allowing Ricky and Jane to say the pledge because Johnny and Marys parents don't believe in the Pledge for what ever reason. To me, you can't have it both ways. You can't say I don't like something so nobody should do it... Then turn around and expect people that do like something to accept it.

Someone on here wrote that the School boards have given up on the subject in order to avoid lawsuits by parents that don't want the pledge in schools..

I wonder what those same parents would say if I sued them for stopping the pledge from being

Different people, have different problems with the Pledge. Some people object to the phrase, "Under God." While others object to pledging allegiance to the flag of the United States.

There is no problem with people worshiping God, or Pledging Allegiance, within the home or church. The things that causes the lawsuits, is a governmental entity (public school board, city council, state legislature, etc) making prayer, or the Pledge mandatory for persons or public school students.

Example: You can have your kids say the Pledge all night long at your home, because they are your kids in your home. You can also have them say the Lord's Prayer before bed. That's fine with me, but when you tell me I have to have my kids say the Pledge, all night long at my home, and the Lord's Prayer before bed, we run into problems.....

A public place, such as a school, is a neutral site. Where we must all get along. Where we must all feel welcome.

When I was in public schooIs, I saw a Catholic kid get reprimanded by the teacher, and beaten up on the playground for blessing himself before reciting the Lord's Prayer... not to mention saying the prayer properly... (old Catholic inside joke... at the time, Catholics, ended the Lord's Prayer after "deliver us from evil...." For Thine is the glory for ever and ever.... was not a part of the prayer for Catholics, until around 1971.... )

The majority can be a cruel dictator, if there are no rights for the minority. That's why public places should be neutral, and religion should be taught at home or Church.

I later went to a parochial school. There was no problem with prayer, or the Pledge. All parents approved, even the Protestants who sent their kids to the school. Prayer and the Pledge was a part of the school day, and was in the contract allowing the kids to attend the school. In public schools, there is no such parental approval, with mandatory attendance, and schools should remain neutral.

As I stated in an earlier post, the Pledge as it was prior to 1954, without "under God," was no problem for most schools, except for Jehovah's Witnesses, who were persecuted in the first half of the 20th Century, after challenging the Pledge based on idolatry issues...

If the Jehovah's Witnesses could say... "I pledge allegiance to the United States of America, one Nation, Indivisable, with liberty and justice for all..." There would be no problem... Rather than write a new pledge, (they can't, the Pledge was approved by Congress...) that would be acceptable to all... Most schools say no pledge at all...

By the way... did anyone know that the Pledge was to be said with the hand over the heart for "I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag....", then extended outward and up, then slowly turning the palm from face down to up for the rest of the pledge. This was the practice from the 1880s until 1945. The practice was changed to the hand resting over the heart for the whole pledge because the "old way" looked like a National Socialist ( Nazi ) Salute....

I just don't like the idea that I can't or my kids can't say the Pledge because someone else objects to it..

I would never ask anyone to say it if they objected to it for whatever reason,,, I just don't like them trying to shove thier beliefs down my throat.. don't like it at all.

I don't agree that we need to adjust public society to the lowest common denominator just to make it "acceptable" to everyone.

Kids who don't get to pray 8 times a day.... Someone who probably doesn't pray that much at home, or in church....

I was a kid who had to do that in Catholic schools..... I didn't know of anyone there... not even the kids who became Priests and Nuns felt depressed about missing classes without having someone make them say a "Hail Mary," or the "Pledge of Allegance."

If no one says it... no one gets singled out due to their beliefs.... If only the believers say it... then the non-believers get singled out....

If you are a Protestant. how would you like to say a "Hail Mary," or get on a Prayer rug and pray to Mecca....

If the majority could place themselves in the shoes of the minority.... maybe they'd understand....

First off.

I am doing my student work to get my teaching degree here in Colorado.

When I attended public school we rose for the Pledge of Allegiance every morning of school. Time was set aside for it at the beginning of the day with the Principal saying the pledge and everyone standing with their hand on their chest.

No time was set aside for the Star Spangled Banner - nor do I think there should be. But the flag - I have no problem.

My feelings on this issue you have put forward:
They should not be mandatory. I have no problem with the Pledge of Allegiance as it is relatively quick and all is said and done. But the Star Spangled Banner....that is a lot more time consuming and too much time would be set aside for that, IMHO.

Quit turning this into a religious topic.

This is about patriotism, not religion. The Pledge is not about declaring religion, it's about declaring you are a citizen of the USA and will stand by it no matter what.

If someone has a "religious" issue with it, let them not participate, you can't dictate that the other 28 of 30 kids who have no problem with it, can't do it.

if that is the case, I can make a case that social studies is stupid and shouldn't be taught, or that gym class is unfair the the non-athletic students, or that testing is unfair because some students learn the material, but do poorly on tests, it creates stress and kids shouldn't be exposed to stress.

I can come up with hundreds of reasons we could just turn schools into daycares because someone somewhere will always find something wrong with everything.

At least you can't challenge the way they teach evolution...

Most objection to the Pledge are to the words "under God." The Law suits against the Pledge have been by Jehovah's Witnesses, on religious grounds, idolatry, Pledging allegiance to a symbol, and by Atheists/Agnostics on religious grounds, state sponsored religion.

What about "God" isn't religious???

I stated earlier, if the Pledge was "I Pledge Allegiance to the United States of America, one Nation, Indivisable, with Liberty and Justice for all." There would be no objections by school boards or religious groups.

The objections to the pledge are based on Religion.... hence a discussion on religion in schools....

So teach them to say "UnderDogs"

It was said in school for decades, NOW all of a sudden it's a problem, tell you JW's to go to their watchtower and wait.

I'm tired of changing everything to please a few people who don't like something all of a sudden.

We live in a country of wusses, Iraq should have invaded us, we probably would have turned over on our bellies and surrendered, and they could have done it with 10% of the forces we sent to take Iraq.

Well if you want to split hairs and get really technical, the pledge says "one nation under God"... it's hard to argue that our NATION wasn't founded under God.... that doesn't mean each individual has to agree or recognize the same God or any god... it means THE NATION was founded under God.... which it was.... which is why God is referenced in so many early founding documents, why God is referenced in virtually every founding fathers speeches and letters, which is why God is referenced on almost every historical monument... our nation was founded under God... so what is wrong with recognizing that fact in the pledge, even if you don't recognize the same god or any god?