DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Trump Cutting Education Bigly!

So you simply refuse to answer a straight forward question because it isn't within the parameters you wish to address. Got it.

Nah. Asked, and answered.

Then I went to the ballpark.

And, your "question" was a misleading statement posed as a question.

Let me break it down for you, as you seem to have trouble comprehending: No, I am not in favor of cutting education in order to use those cuts to increase something else.

That's not a cut in the manner I'm speaking of. Quit being obtuse about it, or admit you don't have a clue what I was talking about.

There, you happy? I answered your self purposed statement that you phrased as a misleading question.

Apparently those who have been running our school systems have no clue what it is either, that or they just failed bigly We spend more than most countries, yet we get worse results, and unruly kids who can get away with what ever they want. I am all for increasing our spending on schools, ONCE they prove they can educate our children. I am not all for throwing more money their way when they keep failing every test.

I can't even imagine the challenges faced by today's teachers. The rod of discipline has been taken away, parents no longer side with the teachers, everything is measurement driven and test based instead of being more personally catered to help the individual flourish.

I used to think public schools were just factories where they made factory workers. But as I get older I see how much better my education was compared to what kids get today and it's scary.

This is one of those problems I think you throw tons of money at trying to fix it as well as funding the best possible education we can. An educated workforce is much more powerful than the alternative, right?

https://www.cato.org/publications/policy...tion-experiment


I have no issue with paying for good schools. Our country does indeed have enormous wealth, and that is the least we can do. My issues are more with how liberals often imply that more spending is always better (we are already near the top) and a couple other issues that are pushed disingenuously.

I've shared some experiences from my school years on here before. The short version: It was a good school, I rarely witnessed any fights, people mostly did what they were told, the standardized testing results and such were excellent, etc. This did not require as much money as you think. Many of our classes were just taking notes off a projector and having discussions in class. The budget per student was well below state average, yet the results were great.

Yet there are other schools not too far away that spend far more per student per year. The money just seems to disappear. I don't know where the money is going, and neither do you (these are your words from another thread, albeit paraphrased.) The results are abysmal by any objective measure. Student behavior is unruly to say the least. This is a common dynamic in many areas of the country.

Current education models cannot account for this phenomenon because they do not account for crucial and highly relevant information. Instead of addressing this and getting to the truth, we'll just continue to go in circles with liberals and conservatives being at each others' throats. Conservatives will come up with explanations that are strange, but in some cases do kind of match reality, even if they're missing a part of the puzzle. Liberals will come up with explanations that are increasingly bizarre that do not match reality whatsoever. Rinse and repeat until we learn, if we ever do.

I don't post in this forum very often, but seeing the Education title when viewing a list of forums made it hard for me to not read this thread.

As a person who was a teacher for decades, a coach who had dealings w/administration about monies, and as the head administrator in the After School Tutoring program, I do have more experience than most posters when it comes to education and funding.

Education receives plenty of money. That is not an issue and it will not be in the foreseeable future. The problem is how the money is spent.

There are too many ridiculous programs that allow people to take advantage of laws; top heavy personnel at the administrative level, obscene amounts of money spent on testing; travel expenses; obsessive waste of materials and resources; etc.

I know that many just want to make this either a pro or negative party issue, but the problems that education faces goes much deeper than that.

It's a big challenge. My niece as well as several of my cousins are/were teachers. I have a dozen friends who are teachers. My wife is a member of OEA, and NEA.

You and I both know hat discussions about funding and the undoing of American public education, as DeVos seeks to do, are two very important topics.

From a national standpoint, I think the less involved the government is, the better. If you look at good education systems around the world, the best ones are where the teachers themselves have the most leeway, and few decisions are made the higher up the hierarchy you go. In the US, we seem to want to do it backwards. We want "one-size" fits all solutions like "No Child Left Behind" and "Common Core" and the Federal Government handing out money based on how they feel people are teaching to those standards. That's exactly why we have schools that do nothing but "teach to pass tests" now.

Trump had hinted that he wanted to dissolve or severally reduce the Dept. of Education and I think that's actually a step in the right direction. Take the bureaucracy out of it and move the money spent there down to the local level instead. That's where the decisions should be made anyway if you want to actually improve education.

DeVos wants to let private corporations take over the operation of the American public education system.

I agree more local control is needed, but DeVos really gives no crap about the little people. She wants to line the coffers of people who want to turn K-12 education into a business, and treat every child as they are the exact same.

Obama's pick, Arne Duncan, used the same azz backwards model.

Even though you felt the need to be snarky, thanks for at least answering part of my question. I'm sorry that it seemed so painful for you. lol

Is Trump cutting the amount of money schools receive, from year to year, or cutting the rate of growth in the education budget? I heard something that indicated the latter, and if so, I would be in favor of that across the board.

From what I understand, it's an actual cut. A bit more detail: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/24/betsy-devos-defends-leaner-education-budget-says-o/?

The header pretty much says it all:
-DeVos defends leaner education budget, says Obama spending yielded ‘zero results’
-Democrats decry $9.2 billion in cuts as Republicans praise school-choice focus

I'd post the rest but the formatting gets screwed up with copy+paste and I'm too lazy to fix it right now.

Don't American kids score 25th in the world in science?
The status quo sucks.

And the solution is to take money away from it instead of fixing it.

Our current education system sucks. Kids score less than some third world countries and we have to drug our younger students to keep them calm in class.

All signs of a broken system. Time for change folks!

Three things:

1. Pit, money is not the issue.

2. 40, we don't even have a standardized national test to fairly compare state performances and there is certainly no world standardized test.

3. I blame the government and districts for many of education's problems, but the biggest issue is probably the attitude of the public. Entitlement, lack of responsibility, complaining about rights, lack of personal accountability, lack of respect for teachers and schools, lack of motivation to learn, etc are huge detriments that are hard to overcome. There are plenty of people who do indeed succeed in public schools. You can be successful if you choose to be.

I want to add on to something I said in the previous post.

States give different end of grade standardized tests. They also grade them differently. For example, one state might set 47% correct to meed the acceptable standards while another might set theirs at 43%.

The questions are different. The way you respond to them, whether it be multiple choice, short answer, extended response are different from state to state. The tests are given on different dates in different states.

Yet, the government and media not only post the results but offer endless commentary on which states have better results.

Let me ask you why is that? Why isn't there one standardized test for the nation so we can compare states by the same criteria? Think about it. And think about money and who would suffer and who would gain if we switched to more equitable testing?

Cutting money from it doesn't fix it. Since you seem to promte changing it, what other than defunding it is the Trump administration actually doing to try and fix this broken system?

U.S. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos, however, said in a statement that the plan “reflects a series of tough choices we have had to make when assessing the best use of taxpayer money.”

“It ensures funding for programs with proven results for students while taking a hard look at programs that sound nice but simply haven’t yielded the desired outcomes,” she said.

The proposal eliminates a number of programs with the rationale that the programs have been proven to be either ineffective or are duplicated in other areas.

The plan calls for a $1 billion increase for Title 1 for new Furthering Options for Children to Unlock Success (FOCUS) grants that would be awarded to school districts that enhance school choice opportunities.

The budget also seeks a $167 million increase for the Charter Schools Grants program to allow states to launch new charter schools or expand current ones.

Pay attention in class there Pit.

Looks like someone did pay attention about charter schools. This education plan sort of sounds like DJT's infrastructure plan: privatize it all. I fear for the children.

Great,, I'm glad you didn't fall for the "he's president now so it's fault" line I heard and read so much... W did a lot of damage...



No, he set things up to fail and they did in 1990... Bush the first was dogged by Trickle down Econ.



Boy ain't that the truth brother.. Just keep in mind, both parties are in it for what they can get personally. If you operate from that premise, you won't ever be disappointed LOL



LOL,, never heard that before... new to me..

Are you fearful for American children?
You know, the ones who are drugged during the early grades and then rank 25th in Science and 27th in Math worldwide thanks to a broken Public School System? Those kids?

From your article:


“In fact, the last administration invested $7 billion in school-improvement grants specifically targeted at the lowest-performing schools and areas with zero results and zero improvement,” Ms. DeVos told the House Appropriations education subcommittee.
“We have tried that,” she said. “I think it’s time to try something different.”

Then:

She said the budget request would “eliminate or phase out 22 programs that are duplicative, ineffective or are better supported through state, local or philanthropic efforts,” which includes federal funding for Special Olympics.

And:

“I think we spend a lot of time talking instead about schools and buildings and systems,” she said. “I think we should be focused on doing what’s right for individual students. If a school’s not working for a student and a parent doesn’t have the economic means to do something different, I think we should help find them ways to be able to make that decision on behalf of their students.”

Plus:

“Remember, the federal government just provides about 9 percent of resources for public schools, [and] most of it comes from state and local taxes,” said Ms. Lowey. “So what we have to do is increase resources for public schools, not put an increased burden on the state and local, and, again, continue to work together to improve them, not diminish them.”

Me: I see several good arguments in these sections. We pour more and more and more money into our schools, yet the students fall further and further behind the world. something in our education system is not working, and needs repaired, but blindly pouring money into the system isn't the answer.

At least you have remained humble and respectful...

Of course. I'd never want those kids to enter charter schools. It's already bad enough that their education. Last thing we need to do is promote vultures to profit off of kids and their parents, who just want a good education for their children.

I'm also worried about the kids in "third world countries" who are unable to take education exams because they are too busy struggling to survive.

40, did you go to a public or private school as a kid?

Why, did you prepare a hateful liberal attack for either answer?

You do realize that charter schools fail at about the same rate as public education, right? And the rest is nothing more than rhetoric with no specifics.

You do realize our Public School System is a failure so using the money on Charter Schools could be a big improvement, especially when they get the same amount we used to blow on Public Schools, right?

Okay, so you received a public education.

You benefitted from American taxpayers, and it brought you to the life you lead. Don't you want others from all backgrounds to have the same opportunity as you did?

Some kids, due to circumstances way beyond their control, never get the basics in their development to do as you did in school. Nowhere do I say "throw more money at it!", but I want you to understand this privatization of American public education will further increase the achievement gap.

----------------

The comments about science and such? We teach and assess students in the wrong way. Students should learn through place-based education, and this is a type of education where students use their local community to apply academic concepts. The "problem" with this? The bean counter legislators, they exist on both sides of the aisle, can't quickly measure this type of learning. Yet, countless of research shows place-based learning, project-based learning, and the utilizing of all learning modalities further enhances student outcomes. Such a system of learning happens in Finland and Norway. Spoiler Alert: they don't test their kids like we do, and they're among the top in education rankings.

For us to embrace this, we need to truly embrace science, listen to the research, and treat teachers as actual professionals.

-------------------------

DeVos' planned dismantling will just make the problem worse, but I think that's what the power brokers want. Who wants to change upward mobility in America when it means those at the top may actually move down.

I see the GOP promoting moving money around to the private sector that isn't performing any better and making excuses for it.

Literally crying.

I see you and the other Liberals crying to continue throwing money at what has already failed.

Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result is a sign of Socialist Ideology. (insanity)

Cars break down all the time, and oil goes bad quick. Using super glue instead of motor oil could be an improvement. Let's just disregard all the common sense, factual based studies, and reality that says motor oil is better than super glue for an engine.

I'm just saying fix it first. Then if there is room to cut the education budget, cut it.

You know, common sense?

Help me out Rocket... I had a public education, even went to public universities... we had kids who failed and dropped out back in the 70s and 80s.. we have kids today who succeed... the single biggest thing that I had that other kids, who failed, didn't have was parents who rode my butt and instilled in me the desire to succeed. And, for the most part, as my kids are in school right now, the same dynamics exist... those kids with the most appropriate parental involvement seem to be doing the best.


But Pit said it doesn't matter.. they all fail equally.


Can you please elaborate on that just a little or give me some examples.


This part I get. The politicians need to have defined metrics to "prove" that what they are doing is working and to punish those who aren't meeting the metrics. I don't know as much about this as you do but that has just never seemed right to me. My question is this, if they don't test the kids like we do, how do we compare their success to ours?

The other thing I know about politicians is that they need to see results before their term is over so they can get re-elected... and it sounds like what you are advocating is a long term goal that may show some struggles in the beginning as teachers, kids, parents adapt..... but politicians don't have 4 or 5 years to wait for results, they need re-elected next year.


I'm all for this.. let me ask you another question. I read about how much teachers in these other countries that you've mentioned make.. yet they don't seem to spend as much as we do per pupil... so where are they saving their money in the process? What are we wasting money on, since it's not quality education, that they are not? I'd love to give every teacher a 10% raise and greater access to supplies and technology tomorrow, where should that money come from?

I have one idea, interested to hear yours.

I always appreciate our dialogues on this, DC.

I'm currently at a tiny little bush Alaska airport, just returned from a week in Hawaii, and I'll hammer out a response later from the hotel I'm staying at.

As per-pupil funding? I can sort of answer this now.

I've researched scholarly articles, documents in my own district, information on school districts across the nation, and no sheet exists for a district as to where the money actually goes.

From what I can gather...an insane amount goes to the standardized assessments, "magical programs" that come in script form for kids to sit and read from a workbook to "break the achievement gap", and things like that.

It seems per-pupil finding is just a raw calculation of funding divided by amount of kids. I think it's not transparent for a reason, and that all stakeholders (teachers, parents, kids, and community members) would be furious to see how the money gets spent.

Your kind of uncommon sense was crying to fix ObamaCare but it died of stupidity.

Now after 50 years of failure you cry to fix the Public School System! More uncommon sense on your part.

We have thrown enough money away on that Boondoggle too!

Nobody would complain if we had the 3rd highest per pupil spending in the world if it was fixed... so fix it with the budget you've got, stop adding "special" programs and layers of administration and moronic social justice campaigns.