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Do we really know how much input Hue has last year and this year? Everyone assumes he had little input last year and more this year. Why? Because that fits the "the moneyball guys don't know what they are doing" narrative. Do we know that the case wasn't, Hue had a lot of input into the draft last year and less this year? I'm not saying that was the case but I can't say that it wasn't
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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No, we don't know. I think both of us have said it was our opinions.
It beats the usual crap that consumes the FO threads.
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Two of ESPN’s insiders list Browns as most improved team http://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/5/30/1...t-improved-teamToday on ESPN’s insider section, they had their panelists go through five topics that they could better answer now that teams’ rosters are pretty much set as they begin their offseason programs. Cleveland was not featured in the "new team to make the playoffs," "sophomore ready for a breakout season," or "best offense and defense" talking points. That was to be expected. Fortunately, they were also not featured in the, "team that got measurably worse category," an honor that mostly went to the Redskins. The Brown were singled out by two panelists in the final category, "most improved team this offseason." Dan Graziano, NFL Insider: “The Cleveland Browns could finish 6-10 and be the most improved team in the league. How many teams will make five-game improvements? They've invested in both lines, which is a fine way to start building, and while it's hard to imagine them being an explosive offense with their current situations at quarterback and wide receiver, coordinator Gregg Williams and the players that Cleveland drafted on defense should make a difference on that side of the ball.” Aaron Schatz, editor of Football Outsiders: “Cleveland has done an impressive job in improving its roster this offseason, signing two starting offensive linemen in free agency (both still in the prime of their careers), drafting three first-rounders all under the age of 22 and finally finding a second-round lottery ticket at quarterback. (That last one might not pay off, but it also won't stop them from using a first-round pick if they feel the right quarterback is there next year.) We won't all be talking about the Browns' improvement when they go from 1-15 to 5-11, but this is all going to pay off handsomely in three years.” Other teams cited as the most improved include the Buccaneers, Colts, and Rams. It’s one thing for fans to get overly optimistic about their own team, or even for players to make outrageous statements (see Dwayne Bowe a few years ago). But on the national media stage, the praise for Cleveland continues to come pouring in.
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I was willing to give them a chance out of the gate. I too was concerned about the lack of a real 'football man' at the top and expressed as much many times while preaching to 'give them time'. But I think that was part of the plan, to work past the 'old school' thinking that had the team in a 20 year rut. As one of DePodesta's strategy questions says, "If we weren't already doing it this way, is this the way we would start?" That gives pause to reconsider the way its always been done, to look for new approaches. If anyone ever did, the Browns needed a new approach as their current, at that time, and recent past approach was not working. They were going to try something different and knew that running that past an old school football man wasn't going to happen. Proof of that is the way the old school guys bashed them in the media. Everyone was laughing at this 'new attempt'. I'm right here bro ... about to take a mini bite ... *L* ... busy busy busy ... at the airport waiting for a flight back to the sun ... i cant imagine how much hotter hell is ... *LOL* ... There's a lot here ... I'm responding in order ... its your turn ...  I was wiling to give them a chance also ... like we had choice ... but I'm not sure what u mean by phrases such as ... But I think that was part of the plan, to work past the 'old school' thinking that had the team in a 20 year rut. [i]As one of DePodesta's strategy questions says, "If we weren't already doing it this way, is this the way we would start?"You'll need to give me a concrete example of that .. i don't know what that means ... to me its clear why we've failed for the last 20 years .. and it has zero to do with "old school thinking" and it had everything to do with HORRIBLE HIRES ... take a look starting with the very first one .. the Don and Clarke ... i said from day 1 on this board they STUNK and was crucified for it .. they actually started a thread to get me banned cashew i was so negative .. and this was before the first pick was was ever made ... they literally started a thread to kick me off the board ... called me a cancer ...  Since then ... this is the place fo and head coaching careers come to DIE ... look at any fo or HC that has gone on to have success anywhere else ... even at the coordinator level other than Romeo I'm not sure whose even gone back to being a coordinator and excelled ... I would have loved to have seen what Chud could have done .. and I'm guessing he gets another shot ... other than that ... THERE ALL GONE ... I UNDERSTAND continionity ... but u have to have GOOD PEOPLE in order to maintain continuity ... and we were the laughing stock of the league and then came the CIRCUS that was the thief's first 4 years ... what a JOKE ... And this set up looked like another joke ... coming on the heels of us being the football version of laurels and hardy' "whose on first" routine ... what else could u think .. No one with football experience sans a fo exec with what ... 7 - 10 years in .. thats entry level in this business for those w/o playing experience ... then we bring in Mr. Moneyball (we'll get to that brother ... .!) .. who has limited exposure to football over the last 20 or so years ... Oooops ... boarding ... be back from atlanta ...
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My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular but rather the board as a whole and the media. It is generally assumed that since we had what is felt to be a poor draft last year that it was all the moneyball guys and they ignored Hue but this year since most people feel our draft was pretty good, well it couldn't be the moneyball guys, they must be giving Hue more input.
I just wanted to make it clear that we don't really know how much input any individual has.
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone is saying that one year makes a losing mantra.
I think this and possibly others came to mind when I stated that thought process:Bro, we were 1 and 15 last year. How are those 14 guys not a part of "woe is me, losing culture?"I Assumed the 14 were our 14 drafted last year. Hopefully my post would make a little more sense as I don't think they are PART of that Culture as I stated Not established in 1 season as their mindset is not of the Woe losing culture.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
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GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I was willing to give them a chance out of the gate. I too was concerned about the lack of a real 'football man' at the top and expressed as much many times while preaching to 'give them time'. But I think that was part of the plan, to work past the 'old school' thinking that had the team in a 20 year rut. As one of DePodesta's strategy questions says, "If we weren't already doing it this way, is this the way we would start?" That gives pause to reconsider the way its always been done, to look for new approaches. If anyone ever did, the Browns needed a new approach as their current, at that time, and recent past approach was not working. They were going to try something different and knew that running that past an old school football man wasn't going to happen. Proof of that is the way the old school guys bashed them in the media. Everyone was laughing at this 'new attempt'. I'm right here bro ... about to take a mini bite ... *L* ... busy busy busy ... at the airport waiting for a flight back to the sun ... i cant imagine how much hotter hell is ... *LOL* ... There's a lot here ... I'm responding in order ... its your turn ... I was wiling to give them a chance also ... like we had choice ... but I'm not sure what u mean by phrases such as ... But I think that was part of the plan, to work past the 'old school' thinking that had the team in a 20 year rut. [i]As one of DePodesta's strategy questions says, "If we weren't already doing it this way, is this the way we would start?"You'll need to give me a concrete example of that .. i don't know what that means ... to me its clear why we've failed for the last 20 years .. and it has zero to do with "old school thinking" and it had everything to do with HORRIBLE HIRES ... take a look starting with the very first one .. the Don and Clarke ... i said from day 1 on this board they STUNK and was crucified for it .. they actually started a thread to get me banned cashew i was so negative .. and this was before the first pick was was ever made ... they literally started a thread to kick me off the board ... called me a cancer ... Since then ... this is the place fo and head coaching careers come to DIE ... look at any fo or HC that has gone on to have success anywhere else ... even at the coordinator level other than Romeo I'm not sure whose even gone back to being a coordinator and excelled ... I would have loved to have seen what Chud could have done .. and I'm guessing he gets another shot ... other than that ... THERE ALL GONE ... I UNDERSTAND continionity ... but u have to have GOOD PEOPLE in order to maintain continuity ... and we were the laughing stock of the league and then came the CIRCUS that was the thief's first 4 years ... what a JOKE ... And this set up looked like another joke ... coming on the heels of us being the football version of laurels and hardy' "whose on first" routine ... what else could u think .. No one with football experience sans a fo exec with what ... 7 - 10 years in .. thats entry level in this business for those w/o playing experience ... then we bring in Mr. Moneyball (we'll get to that brother ... .!) .. who has limited exposure to football over the last 20 or so years ... Oooops ... boarding ... be back from atlanta ... I was about to blather on about hiring-in-light-of-continuity...but I don't need to do that now. You've nailed it right there.
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My comment wasn't directed at anyone in particular but rather the board as a whole and the media. It is generally assumed that since we had what is felt to be a poor draft last year that it was all the moneyball guys and they ignored Hue but this year since most people feel our draft was pretty good, well it couldn't be the moneyball guys, they must be giving Hue more input.
I just wanted to make it clear that we don't really know how much input any individual has.
I believe many posters are thinking along those lines Jester, and I agree with you we'll never really know regardless of what the media says or tries to project on our team, or any team for that matter. The only media type (nationally) that I'll credit when having their ear to the ground on our organization is Mike Silver. He has unfettered access to Hue and got a ton of really good info about the FO. If you recall, Mike Silver said it was "Sashi's draft". Now that doesn't mean he doesn't respond to the direction his scouts are going, what analytics are suggesting or even what Hue prefers. It's just that he is managing the entire process. I think Hue definitely has a voice when it comes to players, either current or future, but I don't think anything has changed for anyone in any role since the coaching staff and FO were put together. One more thing-- I believe someone suggested (could be wrong) that hiring Grigson was an example of Hue being able to get more football people in the building. I don't know for sure if that's the case but my opinion is that has nothing to do with it. We filled a vacancy. This went overlooked on this board but recently, Lake Dawson, an area scout, left to take a promotion with the Buffalo Bills. A few weeks later Grigson is hired. If anything, considering Andrew Berry's ties to Grigson back in Indy, this clearly seems to me anyways, that its his move. And it should be because he is in charge of the scouts, and thus, should hire who he wants. If he wants to consult others in the building, wonderful, but it's his move. And I think all of this speaks to the "everyone staying in their line" comment I made the other day.
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I just wanted to make it clear that we don't really know how much input any individual has.
I agree w/this statement.
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Kirksey signs four year deal.
Mac please stop comparing this FO to the previous regimes.
Also, please remember that Pryor nd Schwartz were offered above market deals from this FO.
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It is generally assumed that since we had what is felt to be a poor draft last year that it was all the moneyball guys and they ignored Hue but this year since most people feel our draft was pretty good, well it couldn't be the moneyball guys, they must be giving Hue more input. We also need to take into account that everyone was scrambling to get their feet under them. I'm sure that certain aspects of their overall draft preparation were largely under-attended as they simply didn't have the time (a full year) to prepare. The scouting staff was in flux as well, IIRC. Given the prevailing atmosphere of collaboration and cooperation, it's doubtful to me that any (perceived?) "one-sidedness" in consideration or input was intentional.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Back to my thoughts ... Look at all the FO and HC hires we've been back ... then look where they went upon leaving ... we had 14 or 15 years of ineptness .. then came the thief .. and he made the others look good in his for 4 years ... it was a circus at best ... Then these hires ... why would u look at anything we did in a different light .. it looked like it was done out of desperation ... a football front office with NO REAL FOOTBALL guys in it ... if thats what u mean by a new way of looking at things .. your right .. *L* ... just breakin your chops bro ... well kinda ... seriously .. looking at the thiefs history why would u think this set up would work .... The thief did say these guys would get there time .. after saying that 3 times in the previous 4 years u couldn't blame anyone that thought he didn't mean it .. my thinking was ... he has to give them 3 or 4 years at least .. no matter what .. there heading into year 2 ... lets see what it brings ... I fully expect them all to get at least one and prolly 2 more years even if we go 1 - 15 again .. (no shot that happens IMO) ... Back to the "old school thinking" .. give me some examples of what these guys came in and changed ... not being a jerk here ... what does that mean ... diets, training room, drafting not choir boys ... not sure what exaclty that means ... please help me to understand my friend ... I have no probs with Depo's question .. think its a GREAT QUESTION ... u know whats a better question IMO ... how the the pats do it ... now theres a FORMULA FOR SUCCESS ... now bill holds his secrets better than we did during the Cold War ... ya .. I'm old ... *LOL* .. so your not going to find out from him or Kraft or anyone with the pats now .. so i go to the 2nd best place ... if i were the thief .. you'd of more than likely have seen 1 or 2 pats from the previous years roster/fo and asst. coaches on my "team" .... there privy to things your never going to get from the hoodie ... also may want to get ahold of Pioli and guys like Mangini and others ... u get my drift here? There's no sense in re-inventing the wheel ... u bring in good people that can evaluate talent and work together towards one goal ... not sure how that isn't quite simple ... COMMON SENSE ... cause thats what it is to me .... Thats what i want to know ... i understand analytics can help .. my guess is the hoodie's been using some form of it since his days of DC with the gnats ... and he's perfected it from what the results say ... I was PUMPED THE THIEF WAS A PART OWNER of the Stilers .. another org. That does it the right way ... then he got here and i wondered if the only things he learned there was HOW NOT DO THINGS ... Sad but true ... Seriously .. where we suppose to hang our hats based off his first 4 years .... there certainly was no reason to believe there was a good spot on the hat rack for us ....  ... So theres my take on that part ... Thats paragraph 1 ... on to paragraph 2 ... *LOL* ...
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It is generally assumed that since we had what is felt to be a poor draft last year that it was all the moneyball guys and they ignored Hue but this year since most people feel our draft was pretty good, well it couldn't be the moneyball guys, they must be giving Hue more input. We also need to take into account that everyone was scrambling to get their feet under them. I'm sure that certain aspects of their overall draft preparation were largely under-attended as they simply didn't have the time (a full year) to prepare. The scouting staff was in flux as well, IIRC. Given the prevailing atmosphere of collaboration and cooperation, it's doubtful to me that any (perceived?) "one-sidedness" in consideration or input was intentional. It's funny, but that's an often overlooked part of this. I don't remember exact dates of who was hired, who was promoted etc etc. But it all happened in a matter of 4 to 6 weeks or so starting around January 1st, 2016. So in reality from the time the Program boss (Sashi Brown) was put into place to the time of the Free Agency and then the draft was something like 16 weeks, give or take a week. That's virtually no time. I'm somewhat amazed they all didn't just blow up and go hide in the corner LOL Pressure had to be enormous. And yet, I don't remember seeing anyone of them sweating. They seemed calm and in control. Note: I said SEEMED in control, but that may have been like a duck in the water.. All calm on the surface but under the water line, those feet are going like crazy 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Sashi admitted in a presser before this year's draft that they were much more prepared and in sync this year. Hard not to see that as a major factor in the difference between the draft last year and this one.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Gonna have to tackle paragraph two in chunks ... not good at this copy and past stuff ... I'll get my 12 year old nephew to help me later today ... *LOL* ... This is something that makes me think only me and you truly get. Everyone talks about a rebuild. We've heard it a thousand times regarding the Browns as well as other teams. "They're in rebuilding mode", we hear. But are they? Have we ever been truly in rebuilding mode. No. We've always been in 'fire-the-coaches-let-a-few-players-go-then-try-to-replace-them-in-FA-and-the-draft-and-try-not-to-create-too-many-holes-and-move-on-calling-that-a-rebuild', mode. Concur 100% ... this was a TRUE TEAR DOWN ... about time ... U have two choices like i said the first go round ... u do it right and tear it all the way down and accept the 1 - 15 season that is going to entail ... or u half ass the tear down to appease the fans and win 4 or 4 games and keep spinning your wheels like we've done ... not since the thief ..but with other regimes ... The thief had a revolving door .. eventually there wasn't much left to tear down ... *L* .. Crap ... once i was left with just that .. i realized i didn't really have much to say .. Oh well ... like depo said ... time to re-evaluate my process ... *LOL* ... See .. OLD OLD OLD dawg ... learning new tricks ...
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I don't know about all that. LOL What I think happened is that in the beginning of their first year they had so little time to prepare for FA and the draft with a coaching staff they hardly knew personally. They were also in the very beginning of establishing their strategy throughout the whole organization and were scrambling on all fronts. Heck, even DePodesta said he sat out the first draft to watch and learn because he didn't know anything about it. This seems to be a popular "reason" as to what went down last year, but I'll respond to you so we can keep this discussion civil. Who is to blame for the Browns not having adequate time to prepare? Is that person--or people--still part of the organization? Who is to say that it won't happen again should the Browns struggle this upcoming season?
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I UNDERSTAND continionity ... but u have to have GOOD PEOPLE in order to maintain continuity ... and we were the laughing stock of the league and then came the CIRCUS that was the thief's first 4 years ... what a JOKE ... This was exactly my point. Look at this list, it's abysmal: Chris Palmer/Dwight Clark Butch Davis/Also GM Terry Robiskie/Interim - no GM Romeo Crennel/Phil Savage Eric Mangini/George Kokinis/Mike Holmgren Pat Shurmur/Mike Holmgren Rob Chudzinski/Michael Lombardi Mike Pettine/Ray Farmer There may be a coach or two, and even a GM (maybe) that continuity might have helped, but there is no single pairing during that stretch that was worth keeping. Particularly in light of the team rosters, the abysmal drafting, and the awful win/loss records. The infighting and power grabs alone were enough to warrant dismissal in some cases. Even Davis' & Romeo's standout seasons were outliers, and the drafting that followed those two years only served to perpetuated the downward spiral. Throughout it all, we never had a franchise QB. Never even came close, with the possible exception of Couch, who was simply destroyed by the complete ignoring of the O-line. God awful. All of it. Continuity be damned. Thank heaven they were all fired. Most should have never been hired in the first place. We'll see where we go from here. Signs are pointing up, but it's still early, and we are coming off a 1-15 season, and we still don't have a defined franchise QB. I will say this, regardless of the W/L this year, I will be furious if we fire Sashi or Hue anytime within the next 2-3 years. In this case, continuity certainly makes sense, IMHO.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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This is something that makes me think only me and you truly get. Everyone talks about a rebuild. We've heard it a thousand times regarding the Browns as well as other teams. "They're in rebuilding mode", we hear. But are they? Have we ever been truly in rebuilding mode. No. We've always been in 'fire-the-coaches-let-a-few-players-go-then-try-to-replace-them-in-FA-and-the-draft-and-try-not-to-create-too-many-holes-and-move-on-calling-that-a-rebuild', mode.
This FO have done true rebuild. Tear it down to nothing, get rid of highly paid veterans, purge the roster of players who have been losing year upon year, (not even so much as because they lost, rather because due to all the losing their mental state and the culture of the team was in a deep rut. Even the good players were caught in it and once in that mind-set how do you change it other than by winning and how do you win from that mind-set? Get rid of them. Save that money for the future, get those comp picks, for the future, and move on. (This too is Moneyball).
What u call MONEYBALL ... i call COMMON SENSE ... i don't get it ... were re-building ... in the tear down phase ... why would u not set up for the future ... guys like Schwartz and Gabriel and Gipson ( i did not want him but he fits the mold of the FA's i want to aquire or keep .. ) .. Young guys signing there 2nd contracts ... obviously Gabriel wasn't a FA .. but we cut him to keep Hawkins according to the world .. LOVE HAWK .. not the age were looking for .. Last year every draft pick made the 53 man roster. Not because they were always better than those they replaced but because they hadn't experienced the losing as did those they replaced. It's probably the quickest way to change the culture, get rid of the culture. I agree and disagree with this at the same time ... u want to get rid of the losing culture ... agree .. but u also have what i consider to beWAY MORE IMPORTANT ... look at Mack and Gipson to an extent ... Mack went through 2 or 3 years prior to the thief .. they were inept enough .. then look at the thief's first 4 years ... WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYONE WANT TO STAY HERE? ... it makes no sense .. The losing culture IMO here has been created by the regimes at every level .. not so much the players .. Mack wanted to leave to WIN ... same with Gipson .. the losing culture is the mgmt./coaches its not the players being "losers" ... basically it boils down to them wanting to get out of the DYSFUNCTION surronding this org. Since our return .. Make sense? Did i explain that right? .. u know what i mean ... its hard to communicate on here .. at least for me .. *L* .. cause I'm so deep ...  Thats what i meant when i said to Vers that this FO is paying for the mistakes of past current ownerships HORRIBLE DECISIONS that led to us literally being the laughing stock of the league ... Gipson watched the circus know as the thief's first 4 years ... His first 4 years of ownership may have been the WORST first 4 years in LEAGUE HISTORY .. and thats not hyperbole or an exaggeration ... Look at this years FA period ... we threw more money at the top two safeties and they chose to go somewhere else ... Is that cause we went 1 - 15 last year or is it because of the last 4 years under the thief? ... looks like a no-brained answer to me ... They didn't spend big in FA because the FO hadn't been here long enough to evaluate what they really had. We knew because we've been here through it all. But they hadn't. So their FA participation was small. I've never complained about last years FA .. NEVER ... i am not happy we let Schwartz walk ... not happy we cut Gabriel .. but that has zero to with year 1's lack of a big splash or even a mediocre splash in FA .... I'm not a betting man but I'll state it anyways, I bet we keep nearly every draft pick from this draft on the 53 the same as we did last year. That's 14 picks last year and 11 this year adding up to 25 players. That's 25 players out of 53 who were never a part of out losing culture. Half the roster will have flipped the culture. Add in Collins, the FA's we brought in last offseason and the FA's we picked up this year along with the draft and over half the roster is made up of players who were not and never were a part of that 'woe is me, losing culture'. I get it .. just don't think its that big of deal in today's nfl ... the nfl is set up for mediocrity and quick turn arounds ... its the nature of the beast today ... will get to more of that when i shock the world with why we can win up to 6 games this year IMO ... *LOL* ... U want to turn a losing culture around .. HIRE THE RIGHT PEOPLE .... the rest will come with time .. if we make the IMPROVEMENTS i hope we make this year ... next year ... We will be a HOT DESTINATION for FA's and we will not lose out when we throw money at guys the caliber of the two safeties we lost this year .. MARK MY WORDS ... Phil Savage identified changing the culture as a number one priority. I found that profound. Up to that point I hadn't considered the toll all the losing and roster changes took on the players. I thought yea!!, Phil gets this. He will change the culture. But he didn't. He tried to make the team better but it's hard to fix the personality of the dog who has been beaten all his life, especially if you're the one who's been beating him. Better to pass him off onto someone who wants to take that on and get you another dog, and then treat this one better. Especially when u draft crud and hand cuff the coaching staff with no talent ... And sadly ... he was prolly the best we've had in the FO by far ... no? ..
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 My head is spinning with so much to respond to. lol Yery good posts. I knew it was coming and thought I was ready, NOT. LOL I've got a jillion things to do today but will be back later to address what I can. In the meantime, please don't put anymore on my plate! LOL
#gmstrong
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i said from day 1 on this board they STUNK and was crucified for it .. they actually started a thread to get me banned cashew i was so negative .. and this was before the first pick was was ever made ... they literally started a thread to kick me off the board ... called me a cancer ...
Yet posters clamor for how the board "used to be" and when there was "more football talk". Ironic. Oh, how things "used to be".
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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i said from day 1 on this board they STUNK and was crucified for it .. they actually started a thread to get me banned cashew i was so negative .. and this was before the first pick was was ever made ... they literally started a thread to kick me off the board ... called me a cancer ...
Yet posters clamor for how the board "used to be" and when there was "more football talk". Ironic. Oh, how things "used to be". Not even close ... there were a bunch and i mean a bunch of guys that knew football .. a whole bunch ... football knowledge is sparse now compared ot then ... But hey ... u take one thing and spin it into sumptin much larger than it was meant to be ... that maybe one of the problems with the crowd today .... ... Carry on ... not going to participate in throwing the parts I'm interested in off course ...
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My head is spinning with so much to respond to. lol Yery good posts. I knew it was coming and thought I was ready, NOT. LOL I've got a jillion things to do today but will be back later to address what I can. In the meantime, please don't put anymore on my plate! LOL OK ... will wait til were done discussing what i all ready responded to ... I'm still chomping at the bit to get to the MONEYBALL Errrr .. COMMON SENSE BALL parts of your reply ... u may wanna take motion sickness pills if this is to much .. Will move on to whose next in my very backlogged replies ... It may be Memphis with a football take ... will go see the order in witch they came in ...
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Whatever makes you feel better about dat dem good ole' days!
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I don't know about all that. LOL What I think happened is that in the beginning of their first year they had so little time to prepare for FA and the draft with a coaching staff they hardly knew personally. They were also in the very beginning of establishing their strategy throughout the whole organization and were scrambling on all fronts. Heck, even DePodesta said he sat out the first draft to watch and learn because he didn't know anything about it. This seems to be a popular "reason" as to what went down last year, but I'll respond to you so we can keep this discussion civil. Who is to blame for the Browns not having adequate time to prepare? Is that person--or people--still part of the organization? Who is to say that it won't happen again should the Browns struggle this upcoming season? Well, it's not just a popular "reason", it's fact of what happened. As for blame - the owner would be to blame, but wanting to "blame" is kinda silly and short-sighted, I think. It wasn't working, he cut ties, ripped the band-aids off and we started down a new path with a stuctured plan. As for guarantees? No - there are none, and never will be.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Whatever makes you feel better about dat dem good ole' days! The funny thing is....it is true.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Actually, the fact is that the owner was the cause of the FO supposedly not having enough time.
He hired them and he fired them. Period.
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diam...it must be your delivery...because when I voice my disapproval with some of the dumb stuff that this front office has done, I've got a posse of front office apologists defending their every move.
Maybe I'm too blunt?
Last edited by mac; 05/31/17 08:01 PM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Diam actually gives them some credit. You don't.
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diam...it must be your delivery...because when I voice my disapproval with some of the dumb stuff that this front office has done, I've got a posse of front office apologists defending their every move.
Maybe I'm too blunt?
Blunt? That isn't the word I would use. I could offer up 5-6 if you need help.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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No worries. I have always had the skill to be able to say what I want to say, without actually saying it. I get that from my mother. She was from Alabama. She could mix Southern Grace and snippy like all good southern women can.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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j/c
One person many are overlooking is Hue Jackson. Depo, Berry, and Sashi making it work with a rookie coach...well..."ugly" comes to mind.
The Trio were a little arrogant originally. Typical rookie firsts. I'll bet overwhelmed came next. Hue and his coaches helped push it forward. Once they got through the draft and working through ideas the group came together. This alone has not happen in sometime.
You are so behind when you hire a new FO and coaching staff. It must take at least two years to recover/catch the back of the pack.
The Trio still needs work. I think they have established guidelines. They simple need to keep growing. All I hope is they keep it fun more joy more success.
Key now is results this year. Have they done enough to build momentum? Can we catch a break having minimal injuries and taste success? Just like players, second year is make or break.
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Key now is results this year. Have they done enough to build momentum? Can we catch a break having minimal injuries and taste success? Just like players, second year is make or break.
I especially want to see the 2016 draft class step up and take advantage of their opportunity after the front office retained all 14 draft picks...I believe 12 of the 14 picks remain.
Can we catch a break?....hhmm..this morning I read that Cory Coleman might be limited due to a "soft tissue" concerns. Coleman's history of hamstring and soft tissue injuries in college was well documented. That said, the Browns coaches and training staff must figure out a routine that helps to keep Coleman healthy and on the field.
"Durability" is a quality that is often overlooked when judging a player's value. If you can't play, you can't help your team win.
For many of the youngest on the team (1st/2nd year guys) this year will be their best opportunity to make it in the NFL. I hope the young guys will step forward and take advantage of this opportunity.
When it comes to luck, imo, you make your own luck by overcoming challenges and succeeding in spite of those challenges.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Winning has always been the cure all.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Question? Did you see a difference between drafts and FA from last year to this year with this year being year 2 of Depodesta? He was pretty much silent last year..
No .. i didn't notice any difference at all .. we took a player at 1 ... then we passed on Hooker at 12 witch I don't know why ... we traded down ... same philosophy as last year ... They either didn't like Hooker or were not flexible enough to adjust there plan when Hooker showed up there ... not sure witch one but neither make me warm and fuzzy ... counting on Peppers being there was a HUGE RISK ... so we could have walked away w/o the guy we obviously had targeted ... I want to talk more, but NOT in these JOKE FO threads. I just don't read stupidity Did u just call me stupid ... *L* ..
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No worries. I have always had the skill to be able to say what I want to say, without actually saying it.
I get that from my mother. She was from Alabama. She could mix Southern Grace and snippy like all good southern women can. Well bless your heart 
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Diam and ddubia --- great posts.
and the team last year played harder in every single game through a suckier season than at the end of some seasons when we were nearly 0.500 (Mike Pettine's first year?).... I think that speaks to the culture change and roster overhaul as well as the coach. . . . previous regime's tried to change the culture with words - "play like a Brown" - and then the actions and effort never reflected the words.... and there was no repercussions. I'm not sure how good a HC Hue's going to be .. but u can't argue the players don't love playing for him ... to a man they say they love playing for him ... and last year no one checked out .. although with the youth of the team that should be expected ... and actually Haden IMO checked out .. but he's a BUM anyhow ... not sure why he's even still on the team ... Thats a great point about actions and words ... this FO has stuck to the plan to a T other than saying were going to keep our own young players and then giving up on Schwartz and letting him walk ... Other than that .. they've walked there talked unlike ANY PAST REGIMES who you were left scratching your head at the differences between what they said and what they did ... The truth is that I often lament about the talent on the Raiders team - their super stars (Mack, Carr, Cooper) were all players we could have had and that before the draft I wanted (Mack and Cooper anyway) ..... but without this total rebuild I don't really know if having Carr and Mack on the team would have been enough to be a whole lot better. That FO has done a really nice job .. they've built up both lines and the rest fell into place ... u need to BUILD A TEAM ... thats what they did ... there's many different formula's for building a team ... the only requirement is BRINGING IN TALENT!!!! Something we've SUCKED at since our re-birth ..
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j/c
This FO can never be accused of sitting on their thumbs. They are, and have been, very active...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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mac, I totally agree you make your own luck. I like better you develop a risk plan. At this stage Sashi does not have adequate depth to weather injuries. He is still vulnerable. A little luck will make it easier getting through the season.
Depth is Cleveland's hardest nut to crack. It is why Cleveland struggles putting together a winning season. In the past, Browns depended on seasoned vets starting the season. As attrition sets in more rest with the bottom half of the roster which is pretty weak. I see improvement, but I don't think there is enough quality producing a winning season.
Fans are always analyzing starters, but they really need more focus on the bottom half of the roster to see the real weaknesses. Which are (in order):
T (Left and Right)
WR
CB
FS
LB
TE
SS
DT/NT
Better QB limits exposure at WR and T. In the coming drafts, we will see more competition at second and third string as oppose to finding starters.
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I'm not sure how good a HC Hue's going to be .. but u can't argue the players don't love playing for him ... to a man they say they love playing for him ... and last year no one checked out .. although with the youth of the team that should be expected
What makes a good Head Coach?
A good HC does not have to be your teams offensive coordinator. If Hue sucks as an OC or it's just too much for him to handle both jobs, HC&OC...that does not mean that Hue cannot be a good HC.
IMO, Hue has already shown that he has some of the necessary qualities to be a good HC. Those qualities are...
...recognizing the need to improve your coaching staff when the opportunity is presented. In the NFL, you can't always hire the coaching staff you would like if they are not available or willing to move when you set up your first coaching staff.
Hue saw the opportunity to get Gregg Williams and pulled the trigger and probably did a bunch to improve the defensive side of the ball.
A good HC recognizes coaching talent and is willing to make changes.
...I don't know how many times I heard it said that a player wanted to come to Cleveland because of Hue.
No doubt, Hue's team did not quit on him, even going into the last game against Stoolers. Face it, we have seen a lot of losing teams in Cleveland but I know I have never witnessed a Browns team give the kind of effort these guys did last season, throughout the season.
Hue has a unique quality..the ability to motivate men to give their best effort for him. IMO, having that quality as a HC is more important for the success of a football team than Hue's ability to call plays. Hue can always hire a good OC to take over that job for him.
I'm not saying Hue won't be a good OC..just that he does not have to be a good OC to be an outstanding HC.
It looks as though Hue already has the confidence of his players...they believe in him and will follow him. If Hue can be a good OC, that is just an added plus.
Last edited by mac; 06/01/17 11:37 AM.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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