DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The 4-3 defense and our current roster.

I hope you are right, Home.

Unless I'm mistaken EO does that mean you think orchard will play 100% of the snaps?

I think that there is a chance Orchard doesn't make the cut, but I would put his chances at better than 50/50, because he can also be a core STer.

Kindered also takes poor angles in pursuit and if we keep only four Safeties, then I could see him being cut.

I agree that our Safeties ( not so much the CB) are the biggest question mark on that side of the ball.

I'm hopeful that Powell can show potential at FS, but at this point it's all speculative at best.

Thought I read where Orchard was moving to a hand in the dirt position.

He needs to be. I think we are going with 2 "backers" about 85% of the time. Peppers is going to swing in and out of that role most of the time. A good wat to not tip to the D what alignment you are going to play.

Orchard is back at DE, from what I have read.

Thats what I understood too.

Williams asks his front to rush and rush and rush. You have to keep rotating these pass rushers and Orchard is a good rusher. Orchard, Garrett, nassib, Ogbah are the 4 headliners but we also have Tyrone Holmes and Karter Schult. I believe we keep 5 de's and I really like what I have heard about Schult. 47 tackles for loss in his last 2 seasons is incredible at any level shine game, he looked like he belonged, very surprised he went undrafted.

He was never going to be anywhere else.

Cleveland Browns: Potential of Big Nickel defense

by Peter Smith

The Cleveland Browns acquisition of Calvin Pryor has bought up more of a discussion for the team to employ a big nickel defensive look.

When the Cleveland Browns traded linebacker Demario Davis to the New York Jets for safety Calvin Pryor, one of the discussions that immediately came up was using Pryor would be utilized like a linebacker the way Mark Barron was with the Los Angeles Rams when Gregg Williams was there. Pryor, a disappointing former first-round pick from the 2014 class has some similarities to Barron, who the Rams acquired after he was a first-round pick with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

Yes, Pryor could be utilized as a linebacker type role with the Browns. It would not be the same role as Barron played with the Rams because Barron played the weakside backer spot for them and the Browns just locked up Christian Kirksey for that spot. Nevertheless, Pryor could be in the mix for a slot position in what is termed a big nickel look.

A traditional nickel defense in the NFL is a 4-2-5 defense with four defensive linemen, two linebackers and five defensive backs; three corners and two safeties. In a big nickel look, the difference is that instead of having three corners, the team uses three safeties and the change is made the nickel spot.

Conceivably, Pryor could be utilized in that type of role. It has a little more size and ability to defend the run, but the tradeoff is a slight loss in speed and agility. The player that may be more attractive in that role and particularly Gregg Williams is first round pick Jabrill Peppers.

Peppers played outside linebacker for the Michigan Wolverines in his junior season, so playing that spot in the NFL wouldn’t be a huge adjustment in terms of where he lines up on the field. His role and his responsibility, however, would change pretty dramatically.

Beyond learning a new set of skills to play that position, the Browns want Peppers to play traditional strong safety. Perhaps in the longterm, the Browns will want Peppers to play a traditional strong safety in any situation where they use two safeties but if they do opt to go to a third, he can slide down to that nickel spot.

The risk with having him do all of that as a rookie is overloading him and thereby reducing his effectiveness overall. If he’s thinking about what he’s doing instead of reacting, it will make him play much slower. It may be more prudent to have Peppers focus on one role and allow him to get comfortable doing that.

That spot would likely be a traditional strong safety because that’s where he’d get the most reps and therefore potentially make the most impact. He didn’t get to showcase it much in college, but Peppers does have excellent rage, so for situations when the Browns want to divide the field in half, Peppers could develop into a nice threat to help over the top and potentially make plays on the ball down the field.

In the event that Peppers is understandably not able to master all of that as a rookie, Pryor may have a shot to land the role of that nickel safety if Williams wants to use that package on a regular basis. Peppers vs. Pryor isn’t the only dynamic that becomes interesting for the defense in this case. It also provides an interesting situation at linebacker and the safety position.

Traditionally, the linebackers align to the strength of the formation based on the players in the box. If there’s a tight end, that becomes the strong side. If not, trip receivers to one side or how backs are lined up in the backfield will determine the call.

The secondary makes their own strength call based on the strength of the receivers. The Browns might run it differently, given the potential complexity of their defense, but this would mean that the six players in the box line up independently to the five defensive backs, which can create a couple different looks.



In this example, the offense is lined up in a basic trey formation out of shotgun. Both the linebackers and safeties are calling the strength on the same side; to the defense’s right. The names aren’t terribly important (a few spots clearly up for grabs), but it just gives an idea of what it could look like, regardless of who is in there. The linebackers align to the strength, so Jamie Collins plays to the stronger side of the formation with Kirksey naturally playing weak side.

Here the nickel currently played by Peppers is also to the right to correspond to the two receivers on that side. So if that nickel safety position is viewed as a hybrid linebacker position in what people think of as the “Barron role”, Peppers becomes the strong side linebacker.

The difference between what he did at Michigan and what he will be likely asked to do for the Browns in the event he performs this role will be substantially different. At Michigan, the reason Peppers was utilized as an outside linebacker was due to an overall lack of team speed in the box. Opponents could simply run wide on the Wolverines and they would get gashed before defenders could corral and tackle the ball carrier.

The way Michigan decided to deal with this problem was to put Peppers to the strong side of the formation, play with outside leverage in an attempt to force opposing ball carriers back inside, back into his teammates in the box. This was extremely effective in defending the run. In the passing game, the concept still worked, but it made Peppers look awful in coverage.

Because Peppers was tasked with making sure nothing went outside of him, he was dropping into short zone and giving opponents a free release to the inside. Naturally, he was a step or couple behind them and was tasked with tackling the pass and trying to reduce the damage as opposed to being aggressive in coverage to make plays on the ball.

The Browns don’t have a speed problem in the box with Kirksey and Collins, not to mention their defensive linemen. So if Peppers is playing in the slot, he will be able to play on the man across from him. Peppers only played man coverage about 10 times his entire junior year for the Wolverines. He might play some zone, blitz and do some other things, but he’ll play significantly more man coverage for Williams, aggressively trying to take away the receiver he’s covering.

The other advantage this package would have with Peppers in that spot is he has safety size with corner speed. That is potentially a significant tactical advantage for the Browns as they would have a more credible run presence that can deal with a tight end if needed while having corner athleticism.

As shown in the first example, if Peppers is up in the slot, someone like Derrick Kindred might have some increased viability for this team. Kindred had a pretty decent rookie year that ended with a mysterious ankle injury during his bye week, but if the Browns like him, this is a way to get him on the field.

There are a lot of choices that have to be made when it comes to running this package. Whether they want the strong and free safety follow traditional rules or if they always want to have the free safety always following the nickel. The reason for that comes down to how they want to deal with motion.

In the NFL with NFL athletes, it may be simple enough to just have the nickel run with the motion man. If not, they could bump the backers over, though that’s not terribly likely. If the nickel doesn’t follow the motion man, the more likely option is to roll the safeties.

In this situation, the safety on the other side of the formation, likely the strong safety, comes down to pick up the slot. The free safety slides to fill the space vacated by the strong safety and the nickel slot then drops back to replace the free safety. That comes down to personnel and preference of the coaching staff.

So, having looked at how the defense might line up when the strength calls are to the same side, here’s a look at when the backers call the strength to one side and the secondary goes the opposite.



Collins is still the guy the first line of defense for runs to the strong side, which is exactly what Williams wants. If Peppers is thought of as a proxy linebacker, he’s now on the weakside. Kirksey becomes the middle linebacker.

So, if the big nickel package becomes a part of the Browns defensive attack, effectively both Collins and Kirksey are the middle backer. The fact that Kirksey is technically the Will in the defense becomes rather unimportant other than to set his starting point. Both of them are focal points of the defense and doesn’t give opponents a good place to go to get away from them.

These are just a couple basic concepts the Browns could use if they run this defensive package. There are any number of other things they could do. Staying with the second diagram, one example would be having the strong safety roll down to play more of an outside linebacker position and the free safety sliding to the middle, giving the Browns a defense that resembles a 4-4 look. They can play Cover-1 or Cover-3 with the free safety playing the deep middle, giving them any number of options in terms in blitz packages and an easy way to bracket tight ends.

In the event the Browns want to focus Peppers on strong safety and not overload him, Pryor might be a good candidate to compete for that slot position. Ibraheim Campbell might also be viable in this role (he’s a better athlete than Pryor). Neither is guaranteed to make the roster.

Regardless of how the Browns would want to play with personnel, the concept remains the same. The Browns are going to run a ton of nickel as that’s simply the state of the NFL. It’s important to note that Jamar Taylor was an effective slot corner last year and that really was his best spot last year, so it’s certainly reasonable for the Browns to have Haden and maybe McCourty on the perimeter at corner with Taylor in the slot and Peppers and another safety over the top.

The big nickel package looks like a viable option if the Browns want to use it, be it a substantial part of their gameplan or simply something they occasionally employ depending on the matchups. In the long run, it gives the Browns different ways to utilize Peppers and hopefully maximize the talents they felt was worth selecting in the first round. Gregg Williams is known for using lot of different defensive packages, so it would hardly be a surprise to see big nickel utilized, but it becomes a question of just how much and if he’s confident in the players they have to run it.

"Headline" edge rushers my rankings:

Garrett

Ogbah
Jamie Collins


Cam Johnson

T Holmes

Nassib
Orchard

Thanks for the read Vambo

Yeah, and a good read for sure.

Great article. Agree with a lot of the opinions in this article and pure football info in it.

A couple thoughts came to my mind....through tips from predator and cfrs and a little research......

I think media is missing the point w/ Gregg Williams defense when they discuss the offseason moves at LB and S.

The Gregg Williams Rams really weren't a 'big nickel' defense. Big nickel is 4-DL 2-LB 5-DBs: 3 Safeties 2 CBs.

BUT Ram's personnel was really 4-DL 1-LB 6-DBs which makes if a DIME not a nickel. The Rams's "3rd" Safety, Mark Barron, was playing in the alignment and assignment of a WILL LB and not a S.

The personnel on this team w/ Collins and Kirko has enough talent to field 2 LB and play a "True" nickel without putting a S at LB.

TLDR: I don't think there is a Mark Barron "role" on this defense with the Browns personnel.

They key figure in the Gregg's secondary was the Nickelback (corner/safety hybrid)---> Lamarcus Joyner not Mark Barron.

I think Calvin Pryor's role on this defense is a back-up Strong Safety that moves ahead of Kindred and Campbell on the depth chart.

I think the NB/Safety the (Joyner 'role') goes to Jamar Taylor OR Brean Boddy Calhoun.

I would start Peppers at SS and sprinkle him as NB when needed and gradually begin the transition to FS.



Nickel Base:

DE: Ogbah

NT: Shelton

3T: Cooper (been getting the reps in OTAs according to CBD) DE: Garrett

CB1: Haden/Boddy Calhoun

NB1: Jamar Taylor

CB2: Jason Mac

SB: Collins

WB: Kirko

SS: Peppers

FS: Ed Reynolds

It really looks like a pretty good D as long as everyone stays healthy.

Homes.......I like you and you seem like a great guy. So, when I say this..........it is not a personal attack in any way. Okay?

I don't think it looks like a pretty good defense because the secondary absolutely sucks and it's a passing league. I am not insulting you in the slightest. I am just saying that I ain't seeing it.

Now, if I am proven wrong.............I will apologize to you and others.

No offense taken Vers. I'm just hoping all our secondary people take to GW's D and play well. I realize it's a weakness as of now. Hope and wishful thinking! That and a much improved pass rush!!

I hope you're right, Homes. And again.........I think you are a great guy and I get where you are coming from. Nothing malicious in my comments towards you. Just trying to give my thoughts on what I see. I hope I'm wrong. LOL

We had an anemic rush last year, and gave opposing QBs all day to throw. We had only 26 sacks on the season. That is almost unbelievably inept. It's no surprise that we spent 3 draft picks on DL.

Hopefully an improved pass rush will improve our pass defense. It's hard to expect any DB to cover when the opposing QB has no pressure on him.

We did have a poor pass rush, but our secondary gave up a ton of completions on plays that were w/in 2 seconds. It's hard to believe that so many posters can't remember how many wide open receivers were running all over the field last year w/our slow corners trailing in pursuit and our safeties nowhere to be found.

Lol, I sure do. I also remember that we were consistently torched by tight ends.

j/c

Where would you guys WANT to play Peppers and why?

random thought....I wonder if Gregg plans to use Collins as an edge rusher on passing downs?

I would love to see what Collins can do as dedicated 3rd round edge rusher.

I was thinking that Collins would be used on inside blitzes, especially delayed, inside blitzes.

Agreed.

But I recall reading that he was really good as an outside edge rusher. Good all around really. But I recall PFF maybe? saying his outside pass rush productivity was very good.

I know Gregg has rushed his SAM backers on the edge in nickel before....just an idle pre-season wishful thought...but i wonder and would love to see Collins used similar to Khalil Mack. LB in base downs but edge rusher in known passing situations.

Anyhow....what of Peppers?

Where would you want to see him?/y

Thanks for responding.

Peppers? I see him as a SS, but I really am not that high on him in coverage. I like his versatility and return game, but I think he is a very overrated player in regards to how he is in coverage. I said that long before we drafted him.

We will probably have to use him more as a blitzer, both run and pass and move him around a lot so he can make plays. I think his coverage issues will hurt the secondary.

I could be totally wrong and I hope I am.

I figure the choices, right out of the gate, will be either NB or SS.

And I agree that his question mark is his coverage. BUT I don't think coverage is a question mark because he is necessarily 'bad' in coverage. I view his coverage as question mark because of how he was used in college.

I didn't watch a lot of Michigan games. I did watch a couple of his cutups and didn't see him in coverage very often in those tapes. He was usually in some sort of zone coverage where his assignments were dubious.

I read different theories that at Michigan his number one responsibility was outside contain and the his coverage responsibility dictated that he maintain outside leverage and funnel everything inside.

He wasn't in 'man' coverage often and was seldom in deep zone coverage.

BUT his from watching his workouts at the combine, his coverage skills will not be limited by physical ability.
He has speed, change of direction ability and is a fluid and explosive athlete. In fact his measurable rival (if not surpass) that of Pepper's proclaimed role model of Earl Thomas.

I hope the staff doesn't overload him with too much. I hope they pick a position that would help the team and teach him in that discipline and allow him to master it.
But his skillset is so tempting that they might have him going to special teams meetings, wr/rb meetings, LB meeting, CB meeting and S meetings.

I want him to know he is S and focus on that position and that room.

I believe Peppers should be allowed to focus on SS with the idea of moving him to FS.

Despite your low opinion of his coverage ability I still think day 1 he's a better coverage SS then any of the SS from last year. And IF he reaches mastery of SS I think his skillset will allow him to eventually challenge/surpass Ed Reynolds at Free....but that might take awhile....or might never happen, lol. Who knows. But his physical skillset won't be the factor holding him back like most of the S on the current roster.

Vers, look at this pick from a different pair of glasses. I think this pick seems strange and unorthodox.

I haven't decided if this is a good pick or not. What I do know is Sashi took something of value, draft picks, moved up got Peppers. This is his first major move up. Peppers was targeted. Sashi made his first committed statement on this roster.

Case #2 Brown traded for Pryor a similar player as Peppers. To me, this seems more odd. Why does this trade make sense? You can justify saying we didn't give up much to get. Worst case he plays backup. This is another targeted move. Very few player for player trades happen in the NFL.

Case #3 Brown waived Powell today. Tell me this did not surprise you.

All three moves seem odd. I hear all this moving toward a base 4-2-5 defense. To me, I really question. A base defense is something granite. You have a foundation and can operate any given play. Well, Cleveland has two guys designated to play this position for 16 games. I'm thinking that ain't no base. I also know you don't draft first round guys to run gimmicks.

This is football at a higher level for me. I somewhat understand basics. Are we looking at something new? Doesn't it strike you odd Browns targeting strong safeties when consensus say a free safety is needed?

I don't know maybe I'm over thinking. I find these moves out of the ordinary. Strong safety is not a position you commit to.

Bottom line Sashi is obtaining strong safeties neglecting the free safety. It got me curious!

left or right, the opposite of Collins, at Lb, because I think it would provide better matchups overall.

I know the articles have already been posted.

But I get a better feel for it when I can see and hear it. So here are some our defensive players speaking.













I find this is a better way for some of us to get to know some of our new players, be it rookie or new vets added.

cheers from the Dawgpound.

I'm not quite sure I follow....Cam Johnson is a DE in this defense.

Collins, I agree is not an edge rusher therefore its certainly not his primary role, but he was very productive in pass rush efficiency when he got the opportunity to rush, and for me personally pounded for pound he's one of the best pass rushers on the team.

Holmes is a DE in this defense.

Of the 3 you mentioned only Nassib is considered a DE/edge rusher in this defense and his productivity is that of a JAG.

Bryant and Cooper aren't edge rushers in this defense they're interior DL.
------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm trying to get a picture of what you mean before I respond.

Correct me if I'm wrong but you want Peppers to play Weakside linebacker in base 43?

Maybe if I ask a more specific question....

Where would you want Peppers to play in base 43 (30% of the time) and in Sub-Package defenses Nickel/Dime (70% defenses).

Didn't know exactly what to quote, but wanted to quote something so you would know which of your posts I was responding to.

I haven't extensively studied Peppers. I'm not an expert on him. I just watched his games on TV and was always disappointed by him in coverage. Loved his return ability and athleticism, but he looked to be a slow decision maker in zone coverage and he got beat on crossing routes.

I'm not drawing a line in the sand or anything. I could be dead wrong about him and he'll be a great cover guy. We'll see.

I agree. That reminds me of something Williams said, maybe in his opening press conference. He said something about our DBs can't let the ball get over their head in a "hurry". They are all going to get beat, but they can't allow that to happen in a hurry.

I think part of the problem our DBs had is they were a little too worried about run support.

Let the line and backers worry about stopping the run. The DBs first mission is to mirror whoever they are covering. Just stick close to your guy for the first 3 seconds of a play. Then, if your receiver starts blocking you, then worry about the run. I'd rather the DB's make tackles 30 yards down the field then allow wide open receivers 30 yards down the field. At least make the QB make a good throw and the receiver make a good catch. No harm in that. Doing a good job as a cover guy doesn't mean the other team isn't going to make plays.

Just cover your guy. Blame Myles Garrett and Collins if backs are running wild, deep in to the secondary.

Hey bugs....I'm not understanding what your saying, for example:Correct me if I'm wrong, but we didn't trade up for Peppers, we traded down and he was there and we took him. Then we traded up to take nujokokummmm

Another thing:We needed safety help and the Jets were going to let him go anyway and Davis more than likely wasn't going to make the cut. Not sure what your saying with this one.

Good post dude, I would like to hear from you.

Logical post. I just don't think our corners are very good. They are slow. And it was really tough when we were playing Kindred and IC at the two safety spots. Both are horrid in coverage.

Hopefully, all the new guys will be a big help.

I know this was directed to Vers but here my thoughts......

Without speculating you can't say what lead to the pick other then the targeted player represented significant value to them based on their pre-draft boards.

Similar in what sense? Athletically Peppers is on a whole other level then Pryor. No comparison. They played different roles in college. Pryor was a Free safety that moved to Strong. Peppers was a general DB that moved to LB. Pepper's role in the NFL is yet undecided.

Powell is an UDFA that hasn't played a snap of NFL Safety. He was a camp fodder longshot. I actually like Powell as a prospect but this move isn't 'significant' in terms of team building.

I'm not sure what you mean here *shrugs*?
Which 2 guys are designated to play the same position and what position are you referring to?

Something new defensively? Based on....?
I'm not really sure what you are saying...but the personnel on this defense isn't anything new.


It depends on what you mean by targeting SS. The draft is the draft, its teams play it as it comes...its hard to target a specific position.

In FA, yeah I think the team could/should look at some of the available FA FS.

I'm not sure what you think is out of the ordinary and I don't see how they're "committing" to SS.

Also Bugs Said:Case #2 Brown traded for Pryor a similar player as Peppers. To me, this seems more odd. Why does this trade make sense? You can justify saying we didn't give up much to get. Worst case he plays backup. This is another targeted move. Very few player for player trades happen in the NFL.

Now I will be the first to admit I don't know jack squat about Football, but it seems to me that Peppers is a different kind of S than Pryor. I think they want to move him all around where as Pryor would pretty much play the same position. Anyway thats my take in it.

You bring up some very interesting questions bugs.

Even after the Draft we were a little thin in the secondary. We've since addressed that but as you've pointed out it seems we have a weird concentration of SS.

I don't follow FA across the league, but have there been any FS available that are worth going after to begin with?

The other wild card is Ed Reynolds. I know not many people are very high on the guy because he doesn't appear to have any superstar potential. But I think I mentioned in another post recently that he may be a Jim Leonard kind of guy for us: maybe not the most athletically gifted, but solid at his position AND extremely intelligent. IIRC Pettine had a lot of praise for him, saying that he was extremely good at getting the other defenders in position.

Is Reynolds that kind of guy? He's touted as being very smart. And while the safeties weren't a shining star for us last season, I don't think anyone can really deny that they looked better once we put him out there. Individually he seems to be technically sound.

How valuable is a guy like that in a complicated defense?

As to why the concentration of SS's? As I mentioned, they are touted as being "athletic". If they truly are then IMO they can be taught to be at least proficient in coverage. They don't have to become lock down guys, but there's no reason that they should be an easily exploited liability.