DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pressures QBs face in first full-time role

The only debate here is whether Brady Quinn will be anywhere close to as good as guys like Diam paint him. And we won't know that until he faces real competition. And I'm not sure I would even include preseason games all that much in the evaluation. I've seen more action in the stands than on the field in some preseason games...LOL

Anyway, Tim is gone. He's filthy rich thanks to the Browns. No reason to even discuss his merits or lack thereof, IMO.

We have one....Phil Savage

my guess is he's doing WHATEVER THE HELL HE WANTS .... he made an awful lot of $$$$ and my HOPE IS HES ENJOYING IT ...

I wont let it go ... we will never know what kind of QB Timid could have been ... he was NEVER GIVEN A CHANCE TO SUCEED ..... u and Vers can fluff it any way u want .. but thats the TRUTH ....

my guess is Vers was prolly right ... he prolly would have never been able to stay off the injury report with those flawed mechanics ... but we'll NEVER KNOW ... he was NO WHERES NEAR AS BAD AS U GUYS WANNA MAKE HIM OUT TO BE ......

I didnt participate in any of these the last couple years U guys continued to beat the dead horse after Timid was gone ... well now I will If u so choose ... u may wonder why??? cause its one of the last ones we'll ever have ... BQ will put all this BS to rest in the next couple years as Timid will be a DISTANT ASS MEMORY for us as we ALL REJOICE over the DOMER ...

As long as he's better for us than our other first round Domer taken in almost the same slot, I'll be a happy camper.

he'd be better than my boy Jeff ..... Left Handed ...

boy now i've done it...i've started a real TIM COUCH tread haha

j/c:

I love how people rewrite history. Like Timid's career was ruined because of injuries. Or, his arm injuries were caused by being sacked. And, how we don't know how good he could have been if he hadn't been hurt. LOL...yep, teams were lined up to sign him BEFORE the news of his gimpy-ass arm got out.


I just pray to God that BQ is not another Timid. Although, I do think he has the potential to bust like Timid does.

lol I've only been back for a few hours and already a Tim Couch thread just brings back so many funny memories of the old DT.

Yeah, I guess you could say that every QB can bust.

I just think BQ has a bigger bust potential than most.

---It's already been said that he has very little upside. He is as good as he's going to be.

---He put up his gaudy numbers against the Sisters of the Poor.

---He sucked ass against teams that were actually good.

---He's a freaking pretty boy.

---He is inaccurate at times, especially after he has been pressured. Well, he's going to face pressure in the NFL.

---He didn't handle the other pressure of playing in big games very well either. They are all big in the NFL.

---Some ND fames thought he was nothing more than a pretty boy who was lucky to play under Weis.

---Apparently, other NFL teams were leery of him, because they sure as hell passed on his ass.


I really don't know how good or bad he will be. I think he has a chance to succeed. I also think he could be a huge bust. That's why I was so freaking ecstatic when we drafted Joe over BQ. Then, instead of hitting the singles and doubles that Savage says he likes to do.......he went for the fence. And when you do that.......you either hit a homer or strike out, although when you swing for the fences, more often than not........you strike out.

One good thing though.........BQ and Leon will look pretty posing for the cameras, and that will make Junior happy.

Gawd, I hope you are wrong.

I didn't say he would bust. I said he has the potential to bust. He also has the potential to be a good QB.

I know what you said. I also have come to learn that when you have a negative opinion on a player, it tends to turn out true.

I have seen many clips on Brady and at times he has looked lost. I do remember seeing a highlight reel where he was under pressure most plays, and most of the teams were the the weak sisters they played against. That gives me some comfort but not enough to let me sleep at night.

I also thought Lienhert (sp) and Culter wouldn't be any good. I think both of those guys are proving me wrong. Do you agree?

Uhmmm..........if you read the entire thread, I bet you can find why I think he has a greater chance of busting than some other QBs. For instance, I didn't see too many bust qualities in Palmer or Big Ben. That doesn't mean they couldn't have busted, but the odds were slimmer.

Sorry guys.........I just don't see the perfection in BQ that Diam does. I admit, that I could be wrong, but I think he has some real flaws in his game.

Can he overcome those flaws? Yes, I think so.........but, he is going to have to work very hard [at football, rather than in photo shoots] and the Browns should bring him along slowly.

I'm going to put it to you this way.............the Browns......Phil Savage .... and us fans NEED this guy to produce. If he doesn't........we're all screwed.

I like Cutler a lot. He has all the tools. He is going to go through some growing pains, though. I know he started off pretty good last year, but he struggles in reading some coverages. I do think the guy will be very, very good though. He has mad skills, but I do think it's going to take at least a few years.

Leinert? He has a ton of poise. He has seen more at his young age than guys who are much older. He has some good qualities, but he has some deficiencies that will limit him. I think he might play better than Cutler earlier in their careers, but over the long haul, Matt just doesn't have the physical skill set to be a great QB. Cutler does.

Bottom line............I doubt if Leinert can improve much. Cutler can...and I think he will.

This was a tough one to answer, because Matt will probably outplay Cutler this year, if people consider the talent of their respective teams. So, I will look like a dumb ass and by the time Cutler turns out to be the better QB, no one will remember me saying it. *L*

I read it. You have some good points, but like all his positives, they all need to be taken with a grain of salt.


For one, the comment about him not having much upside... how the hell can you or anyone even presume to know that he can't get much better than he is? That's absurd.

For another... you including him being a "pretty boy" is stupid as hell. It has nothing to do with boom/bust at all, but reeks entirely of bias.

Additionally, the comments about "big games" and all that ignore the talent level around him. If the comments were changed to speak specifically of HIS faults as a direct result of being in a Big Pressure situation, then that's different.

The other teams passing on him thing is well known... only Miami is a question mark, the rest all have their QB.

In short, half your list or more can be discarded, most of it reads like you were just listing things to have a longer list.

All that being what it is, I'm in the same boat as you... I'm not all that convinced on BQ. For someone as big as the kid is, he just looks weird when he throws and I don't like it. Kinda like with Frye... he always looks (to me anyway) more like he is shot-putting the ball than throwing it when the ball leaves his hand.


Lastly, my comment was tongue-in-cheek because if you go re-read the comment I replied to, it indeed described every QB ever drafted

Relax P ... hes the real deal ... you'll see ...

unlike u guys I watched the kid for 4 years ... u guys can pi$$ all over him and worry as much as u want about him .. fine by me ..

I KNOW what i KNOW ... and what i KNOW is ND would have played in ZERO BIG GAMES without BQ ... and when we did get to the big games he was in a gun fight with a spoon ..

ahh screw it .. not worth my time .. no one had much to say when i posted my book and EXPLAINED EVERYTHING ... u guys can all enjoy worrying .. I'll enjoy KNOWING what i KNOW and KNOWING that Charlie Wies echos what i say ... but whats he know hes just a college coach ... *LOL* ..

I will reserve judgement for a few years at least. I unlike most think Romeo will start him if he shows anything in the preseason. I think he may believe it is all he can do to keep his job.

Not all those comments are as dumb as you think.

The dumbest was the pretty boy comment. However, when guys get too concerned w/marketing.......it negatively affects their play. I don't mind guys who have proved themselves and who are known to put in the time..i.e. Manning.......but, guys who have done nothing and do a lot of marketing things.....well.......it does affect their play.

What the hell else did you say? Let's see........

Upside: Well..........I have been researching BQ recently and that was stated in more than one article. Many feel that his skill set isn't all that great and that Weis maximized his potential and he really doesn't have all that much more room to grow. And if you really want me to post some articles.........I will. I don't think you guys are going to like too many of them though.

Big games. No, I did not ignore the talent around him. Do most people ignore the superior talent ND has on Army and Navy though? I can factor in ND having less talent than Ohio State, but I also recognize him looking like he was ready to freaking cry every time he got hit.

The passing on him and the Miami thing is BS. If he was truly a franchise QB in the minds of NFL GMs, he would have been drafted by the likes of Washington, Minnesota, the Jets, Jax, etc. People bad-mouth those teams QBs all the time, yet when we talk about BQ......those teams now all of a sudden have QBs. You guys may buy it...........I don't.

Oh.........and I am not asking you to buy what I'm saying, either. I just won't back down and agree to what I consider BS. I think BQ has a chance to be good. I also have some huge concerns about him. At this point in time......I would say it's 50/50 in my mind. And that is between bust and solid. I would put his chances of achieving greatness at a much lower percentage.

Bottom line........I wish we wouldn't have traded the picks to get him. I do hope I am wrong though.

Quote:

---

but I also recognize him looking like he was ready to freaking cry every time he got hit.

---

*LOL* .. and in that one statement all your IGNORANCE on BQ comes out ... that boy got POUNDED his first two years .. he was not much more thaqn a TACKILING DUMMY ... and last year was no PICNIC either ..

hes one tough SOB .... hes like a timex .. he takes a lickin and keeps on tickin ...

to bad u think u know BQ ... cause u ahve NO CLUE ... but the bright side ... as U learn ... you'll LOVE HIM ... you'll see ...

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=195601

Brady Quinn: Is he Tom Brady or Joey Harrington?
April 9, 2007


Over the past two months, people throughout the media world have been lining up to either praise Brady Quinn as the next Tom Brady or tearing him apart as a player who cannot make it in the NFL.

The reality is that Quinn has a number of the traits that make Brady special, but is lacking in other areas. Quinn no doubt has the All-American look and is the polished and prepared speaker that makes him a fan/media favorite right off the bat. He is clearly a very smart young man who has learned very well from coaches Ty Willingham and Charlie Weis -- it's clear when you see his footwork, throwing motion, stride into throws and ability to read the defense at the line before the snap to determine what receiver/play will be needed.

Quinn also is a well-built quarterback with the size, strength and athletic ability to make all the throws and to avoid sacks and make plays with his feet. However, he has not consistently shown the ability to throw the ball accurately -- especially over 10 yards -- which is a major concern because in the NFL accuracy is tied with mental readiness as the most important tools necessary to be a successful starting QB.

Many people talk about Quinn's inability to lead Notre Dame to wins in their biggest games. Though I understand this criticism, the more important thing to note is that Quinn has not consistently stepped up and played well in those big games. (If he had played well and they lost, there is not much that can be said in this regard).

Lastly, when the pocket starts to collapse around him, Quinn does not consistently stay poised and make good, quick decisions.

In my opinion, Quinn is not going to become a super star quarterback in the NFL, but he is not going to be a washout, either. He will be a solid starting quarterback who battles inconsistent accuracy throughout his career.


Russ's bioAbout Russ: GM Jr Scouting LLC is a football scouting service founded by Russ Lande, a former scout for the Cleveland Browns and St. Louis Rams.
Lande and his team of scouts supply exclusive NFL draft content for Sporting News. Lande also annually publishes GM Jr's Guide to the NFL Draft. The Guide provides detailed evaluations and analysis of hundreds of players by breaking down game film and employing a scouting system used by a number of NFL teams. To order a Guide, view full-page reports and find out more about Russ Lande and GM Jr Scouting LLC, go to www.gmjr.com.

Hell, after all the garbage we've had at that position, I could live with him being merely "a solid starter" for a decade.... though for the investment we made it would be really nice for it to be a Homerun.

His presence and comfort in the pocket will improve over time if for no other reason than he will get accustomed to it and the speed of things.

The accuracy thing is huge, but it can also be fixed over time (depending on whether the lack of accuracy is how he is seeing things or how he is throwing). Either way, we're tied to him now for at least the next 4 seasons unless we decide to not sign him, and I *really* don't see that happening, hehe.

I'd like to understand what makes a QB accurate or inaccurate other than his mechanics.

If a QB can never get used to the speed of the game I could see a problem there.

If he has problems making his reads I could also see a problem because he could be forcing himself to throw too quickly by making a late decision, thereby allowing the window of opportunity to close. In essence he ends up rushing his throw by slow decision making. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I wish someone could help me with that lack of understanding.

Also, what is considered short to intermediate range in terms of a QB's accuracy? Does that cover 15 yards?

the way I think of accuracy is "Vision" and mechanics.

The mechanics part is obvious, it's arm/body motion, position, etc...

The Vision part as I'm calling it is not just seeing the field, but judging tempo, time and space.

Think of what it takes to shoot a rifle at a moving target... you have to judge the wind, the speed of the bullet, the distance, the arc that it must travel in, the speed and direction of the target and the speed and direction of other moving objects that might get in the way..... from all of that, the brain has to come up with a "firing solution" and then hand it over to the Mechanics part.

Even if the Browns had selected Russell, there would be questions.

How does he read coverages and make progressions?
Is he just a strong armed QB?
Was he just a one game wonder, against an average ND defense, if you look back, why did LSU lose to Florida?
Will he be able to handle the media pressure of being #1?
Will the Oakland OL give up 73 sacks this year?

Maybe its a round about way to say that no matter who the Browns selected at QB, there would be questions. Until we see something in TC or the season we will not know if he is Dan Marino or a first round bust.

I hold a lot in the fact he was a 4 year starter at a big time college program. The data suggests that QB's that are 4 year starters are more likely to be sucessful than the 1 or 2 year wonders. That, plus the fact that he did play in a pro-style offense under a proven NFL coach, who thinks that he can make the transition to the pro level, makes me satisfied with the pick.

He will play when he is ready to play. I could care less if he starts this year or next.

It was a good decision for the Browns.

If Quinn is a solid starter I think he would be well worth the investment.

Honestly if you have a good defense and good running game you don't need a spectacular QB

I would be gleefully happy with a Trent Green, Matt Hasselback, Drew Brees

For a minute imagine if the Bears had a QB like Green or Hasselback, that team would probably be a 12+ win team and win at least 1 Superbowl...

If he busts we still have Thomas, Wimbley, Sean Jones...etc..I mean of course it will hurt and will set us back but it's not a franchise killer....

I honestly think Quinn has a better chance at being Average to Solid more than he has a chance at Stardom/Bust...

I view a Quinn bust as a PR nightmare, that would ultimately cost Savage his job.

We can rationalize that we have our first round pick for next year, for the price of this years second round pick, but 65 percent of first round players become productive starters and 50 percent of second round players become productive starters. So, this would set the team back.

Frankly Verse I think you are over analyzing and you are basically setting the kid up to fail...I mean if you had as much information about past QB's as you do about Quinn.....half of the Hall of Famers would never have been picked. Are you telling me Bradshaw had better Qualities coming out of college??? You say you didn't see bust qualities in Big Ben But there were plenty...Mainly the level of competition he played. Was he going to be able to read coverages...and frankly the bust boom moniker is not set on Big Ben either....As we saw last year when he had to take on more responsibilities....

I think Quinn is as prepared for the NFL as Lienart ever was. He is definitely far more prepared than Big Ben was. More prepared than Rivers, Cutler, Smith....and it is debateable that he is more prepared than anyone next year....

Does he have some problems...yes...what QB didn't have problems coming out of college....Heck even Peyton Manning had questions coming out of college......So much so that there were great debates across the country between him and the big arm of Leaf. He couldn't win the big game...heck that followed him into the NFL....

On the boom/bust scale I think Quinn leans far more towards the boom side. because you have to take the positives as well. Is that a guarantee that he will not bust...not a chance...Yes he has the chance to bust...when you look at just the negatives.....he is for sure to bust...when you add the positives.....he jumps far to the other side of the scale.....

I don't get it....The Browns have said all along that they are looking for a guy who can manage the game and not HAVE to put the team on their shoulders....Now the guy has far better tools and is far more prepared for the NFL than Charlie was and possibly is.....yet I never heard you complain this much about Charlie......Don't you think that Quinn can at least do that?????

Brady Quinn's Completion %

55.4% - Senior Year of High School

47.3% - Freshman year at ND
54.1% - Sophomore year at ND
64.9% - Junior year at ND
61.9% - Senior year at ND

Quinn's Top 4 Completion % games his SENIOR year at ND
76.3% - Purdue
73.7% - Air Force
73.3% - Army
73.0% - Stanford

Quinn's Worst 4 Completion % games his SENIOR year at ND
55.6% - Michigan State
50.0% - Michigan
48.9% - USC
42.9% - LSU



Most of the NFL's top brass do not think Quinn will ever be an accurrate passer. They cite that if Charlie Wies couldn't fix Quinn's flaw then it can probably never be fixed. Most think Quinn will be good but never great. Trading away the #36 pick and a possible Top 10 pick for him means he better be great or it was a bad move.

I think fanboys like Diam do Quinn a diservice by hyping him up the way he does.

I see Quinn not reaching the status Diam has described more so that fulfilling the hype. You'll see...

He'll be somewhere btw a Marc Bulger and Joey Harrington, and not a Palmer or Manning or Brady.

Shoot, if he becomes a player along the lines of Marc Bulger we can live/win with that - but I don't expect Quinn to be mentioned among the best QBs in the game. He's going to be a good 2nd tier QB.

I think that what we see from BQ will be somewhere between what Vers thinks and Diam's lovefest.

I don't think he will ever be one of the top QB in this league.(Although I will gladly eat crow if I'm wrong) But I also don't think he will be a bust either. I'm more incline to think he will be a guy that plays good solid football at the position like a Trent Green or Marc Bulger. If that's what I get for the next 10 years I'll be happy with that. It's better than I've seen in the last 10.

I do agree with what someone said earlier about Diam. It seems that you put to much on the guy. I don't see how any QB could live up to the picture you paint of BQ.
Of course if he's half as good as you make him out to be then he'll still be a hall of famer.

I'm going with Tom Brady ... *LOL* ...

BQ is a VERY VERY ACCURATE QB at any distance .... this is HOGWASH ...

Its all been said a million times .. no sense rehashing it ... WE'LL SEE .... as usual time will tell .. and as usual I'm the favorite to come out on top .. *LOL*...

I will take My eyes and Charlie Wieses endorsement over U or the guy from Sporting News or Todd McShay ALL DAY LONG ....

Mav lets quit beating around the bush here ... your saying that Lerner ORDERED Opie to move up and get BQ and Opie wanted NOTHING TO DO WITH IT???

come on ... just come out and tell us what u know ... quit footing around and just say it ...

as for the rest of U doubters .. i understand why your saying what your saying .. with our history and your limited knowledge of BQ I would be saying the same things if i didnt know as much as i do ...... i will tell u this once again ....... u will be THRILLED WITH BQ ...

he was a STEAL ... in 4 or 5 years he will be a TOP 3 - 5 QB IN FOOTBALL and when Brady and Manning retire he will battle for the top spot ... YOU'LL SEE .....

PS. he will be WAY BETTER than Lienhart ... he has a MUCH MUCH BETTER ARM ..... i LOVE Matt and think he will be good .. but he will be limited by his arm strength ..

That's not what I'm saying, and have never said that...

But best believe that's what Lerner strongly wanted (voiced)...never dictated...but if you know anything about a boss/employee relationship - it's interesting...

Think about this, the two QBs Savage had selected he's not gone BPA (Frye) and mortaged the future by giving up a lot (Quinn). And Lerner was smitten with Frye and drooling over Quinn...

This isn't a big deal if everything works out how I think it will, Quinn being a good starter and Frye being a good backup, but it just doesn't sit well with me that when Lerner has given an opinion, Savage has followed it, especially when it comes to players...

OK ... Thanks for clearing that up ... if Lerner was dictating he'd be JUNK in my book ... the fact hes even giving UNSOLICITED OPINIONS is HORRIBLE ALSO ... i HATE THAT if there unsolicited ... or if there Opinions/Orders .... hes JUNK ....

If Opie drafts ANYONE on Lerner's ORDERS or cause he thinks he has to .. then Opie is JUNK TOO .... thats a sure fire to RUIN OUR TEAM for his Job Security ...

Lerner needs to be SMART ENOUGH to stay the hell away .... if not were done till he sells ...

not knowing how this worked internally I wont pass judgement ... but i am none to happy if Opie took players cause Lerner wanted them ... lets hope that Opie wanted them also and Lerner was just concurring with Opies idea's .. any other scenario is a RECIPE FOR FAILURE .. no matter how good BQ turns out to be ...

I take solice in the fact Savage had the balls to go Thomas at #3 and not snag Quinn there...because it set us up for potentially on of the best drafts ever...

I know Phil had to make his case (to Lerner) for Thomas a couple weeks before the draft, he must've made a convincing argument.