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Something that always struck me with Quinn, was the idea he played in an "all star" offense, according to some experts, so his stats were padded by that and a QB friendly scheme. If you look at ND, they have had two guys in the past two years besides Quinn get drafted on the first day...Maurice Stovall in the third of 2006, and Ryan Harris in the third of 2007. Darius Walker went undrafted...you could make a case that Samardzija was a 2nd round pick if he had picked football, but I don't think that he would have been much of a pro. Harris has a shot because he's playing in Denver in the zone scheme. Stovall has been overrated since his freshman year of college.
Looking at it, then going back and looking at the tapes, its my opinion that Quinn was the straw that stirred the drink. He elevated everyone else's play, not the other way around.
And Quinn's line was terrible in college.
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I am gonna gree here.
I defended Quinn *L* to a bunch of people around the league that if you look at his team versus Jamarcus Russels team there isn't really a comparison.
Also with the Troy Smith debate, Troy smith had 3 WR and his RB drafted, TWO of those WR in the first round.
while Quinn's RB went undrafted and had zero WR drafted.
Say what you want about the "big" game results, but those were better TEAMS he played period. Solid all arond TEAMS, not just one guy.
I hated the idea of Quinn @ 3, but 22 is fine by me.
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Stovall was actually not over rated his first 3 years .. he FELL OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH and did NOTHING .... when Wies came in he told Mo to lose 20 pounds and he could have a A GREAT SR. YEAR .. if he didnt lose 20 lbs he may as well not even come back and play cause he wouldn't ... *L* ..
well Mo lost 20 lbs ... to put himself in a POSITION TO BE DRAFTED ... he was a NOTHING BEFORE CHARLIE .... and the first thing Gruden did was tell Mo to put 20 lbs back on cause hes gonna be a TE if he wants to have a SHOT AT PLAYING IN THE NFL ...
so one of their first day picks is going to be playing a different position int eh NFL than he played with BQ and thats if he PLAYS AT ALL ...
U missed one ... Jeff Fasano .. he went to the Boys in rnd 2 I believe ...
and his OL STUNK ... Morton and sullivan will be 5th yr. seniors this year .. they both have an outside shot of being drafted ... NO ONE ELSE THAT PLAYED WITH BQ WIL BE ... OH wait .. John Carlson the TE that took Fasano;s place will go Day 1 ..
this is all documented in my book ... and to make it WORSE .. the guys drafted on D are LESS IN #'S THAN THE GUYS DRAFTED ON O ... *LOL* ..
Ohio State had more guys drafted from their D on the 05 team that KILLED us in the first round or two than we've had the LAST 2 YEARS COMBINED ON DAY 1 .... whats that say about the TALENT DISPARITY .....
and oh BTW .. wies who says BQ is going to be REAL REAL GOOD and TOLD HIS BEST FRIEND if he wanted to SUCCEED to take BQ is the one who put the BUM STOVALL in a place to suceed ... but whats he know .. after all Todd McShay and a bunch of othrs disagree with him .. *LOL* ..
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Quote:
and oh BTW .. wies who says BQ is going to be REAL REAL GOOD and TOLD HIS BEST FRIEND if he wanted to SUCCEED to take BQ is the one who put the BUM STOVALL in a place to suceed ... but whats he know .. after all Todd McShay and a bunch of othrs disagree with him .. *LOL* ..
Jimmy Johnson disagree's with your boy Wies too. He thinks Quinn is an inaccurate passer and always will be. You know Jimmy Johnson, he's a coach that has actually won something as a HEAD COACH, unlike Charlie Wies.
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LMFAO lets all listen to the players college coach for a unbaised opnion 
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Going back a few years...
One of the knocks on McNabb was that he was less accurate than other QB's. You know what, he is, sometimes he will just miss a reciever. It happens.
Meanwhile, he whos name shall not mentioned was considered to be an extrermely accurate passer. I thought the Browns would have been better with McNabb, because of the mobility issue and an expansion team.
I just do not see Quinn as being "so terribly inaccurate" that he can't play in the NFL. If the completion percentage was in the 50 to 55 percent range, and the ints were way up, maybe I could be convinced otherwise, but this "issue" only began to appear about a month or 2 before the draft, and was fueled by the LSU game.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Quote:
Jimmy Johnson disagree's with your boy Wies too. He thinks Quinn is an inaccurate passer and always will be. You know Jimmy Johnson, he's a coach that has actually won something as a HEAD COACH, unlike Charlie Wies.
umm...
Jimmy Johnson had...
Aikman
Emmit
Irvin
and a lot more...
HE SHOULD HAVE WON!!
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Quote:
Stovall was actually not over rated his first 3 years .. he FELL OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH and did NOTHING .... when Wies came in he told Mo to lose 20 pounds and he could have a A GREAT SR. YEAR .. if he didnt lose 20 lbs he may as well not even come back and play cause he wouldn't ... *L* ..
well Mo lost 20 lbs ... to put himself in a POSITION TO BE DRAFTED ... he was a NOTHING BEFORE CHARLIE .... and the first thing Gruden did was tell Mo to put 20 lbs back on cause hes gonna be a TE if he wants to have a SHOT AT PLAYING IN THE NFL ...
so one of their first day picks is going to be playing a different position int eh NFL than he played with BQ and thats if he PLAYS AT ALL ...
U missed one ... Jeff Fasano .. he went to the Boys in rnd 2 I believe ...
and his OL STUNK ... Morton and sullivan will be 5th yr. seniors this year .. they both have an outside shot of being drafted ... NO ONE ELSE THAT PLAYED WITH BQ WIL BE ... OH wait .. John Carlson the TE that took Fasano;s place will go Day 1 ..
this is all documented in my book ... and to make it WORSE .. the guys drafted on D are LESS IN #'S THAN THE GUYS DRAFTED ON O ... *LOL* ..
Ohio State had more guys drafted from their D on the 05 team that KILLED us in the first round or two than we've had the LAST 2 YEARS COMBINED ON DAY 1 .... whats that say about the TALENT DISPARITY .....
and oh BTW .. wies who says BQ is going to be REAL REAL GOOD and TOLD HIS BEST FRIEND if he wanted to SUCCEED to take BQ is the one who put the BUM STOVALL in a place to suceed ... but whats he know .. after all Todd McShay and a bunch of othrs disagree with him .. *LOL* ..
You got me on Fasano. Anthony was a 2nd rounder last year.
Stovall was a guy who got nothing but hype from his freshman year at ND. If I heard one more "he's the next Randy Moss" about him during those years, I was going to scream. He played better in the W-E-I-S offense, but in general the guy isn't that great. He can get open on quick cuts, and be a YAC guy, but I think he's no more than a slot guy.
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I'm not sure who U listened to when ND was playing but i NEVER EVER HEARD THAT about him .. not once .. *L* ... I heard the word DISSAPOINTMENT about him a MILLION TIMES but never the word Moss ..... well unless they were comparing him to a rock that gathers no moss .. *L* ,........
hes gonna be a TE in the NFL if hes gonna play ... hes to SLOW to play WR in the NFL .. he is slower than mollasses ... Gruden made him a TE on like the 3rd day of TC when he couldn't get open against the guys working as grocery baggers and the security gaurds now .. *L* ..
my guess is he never sees the field in more than a handful of NFL games if that ..
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Gruden loves him...he's almost a lock to be a starter this season. I don't get it, but oh well
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This isn't a big deal if everything works out how I think it will, Quinn being a good starter and Frye being a good backup, but it just doesn't sit well with me that when Lerner has given an opinion, Savage has followed it, especially when it comes to players...
The reason Frye was selected over the CB Phil had rated higher was easy..he went BPA with the first pick...he went BPA (and need) with Pool..and again bypassed any QB, but in the third took a flier on a QB.. Lerner came out in that interview with Ramona Robinson and stated that he LIKED RUSSELL.. What happened after that? Phil spank him for leaking that out? Remember that? So lets just say he was feeding thoughts to Phil..he went from Russell to Quinn... At least did anyonen hear Lerner say he wanted Quinn or was it reported that behind the scenes Lerner was breathing in Phil's ear about Quinn? One thing we have a aired interview that anyone could see Lerner talking about Russell the other is the media saying he was pushing Quinn.. WTH? How does your owner do that? Now here's something to think about even if U or Diam could punch holes in this.. If I'm an owner, I should know whether the main man at the helm is good..or sucks  Lerner knows Frye isn't the answer..he probably knew that Russell wasn't going to be around...so he can talk and say to his GM we need a better QB..don't think for a second those two don't discuss personnel at any given time because they should. But the bottom line is Phil took Thomas first..not Quinn..that came around as he did that freefall and became available.. Phil from what he said probably had BQ rated at 3-5 on his board..knew he had a BETTER SHOT AT GETTING A QB THIS YEAR AND NOT NEXT YEAR..and made his move.. Did Lerner fuel the move or did Phil realize this was a chance to secure his QB of the future? I think it's more of the latter and not the former. He did his homework on Quinn.. Mind you I'm not buttering up Quinn just for the sake of it.. I have my feelings about him..some good , some not so good.. I do think he'll be better than Frye..instincts/brain are more developed in football terms.. My biggest beef is how he handles pressure up the gut.. I'm no ND fan..never have been never will be..I've seen the guy more than most..I've known of him longer than anyone because he's from Dublin..and I work in Dublin so I know about him from his high school..  So when he wentto ND , thats all I read and heard about..
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Quote:
Quote:
Jimmy Johnson disagree's with your boy Wies too. He thinks Quinn is an inaccurate passer and always will be. You know Jimmy Johnson, he's a coach that has actually won something as a HEAD COACH, unlike Charlie Wies.
umm...
Jimmy Johnson had...
Aikman
Emmit
Irvin
and a lot more...
HE SHOULD HAVE WON!!
And who drafted Troy Aikman and Emmit Smith? None other than Jimmy Johnson. The guy knows talent.
Jimmy Johnson on Brady Quinn
""It looks to me like Quinn's maxed out his ability, or close to it."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/wr...ction=si_latest
Again, I ask you and especially Diam, what has Charlie Weis won as a Head Coach?
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I'm no ND fan..never have been never will be..I've seen the guy more than most..I've known of him longer than anyone because he's from Dublin..and I work in Dublin so I know about him from his high school..
So when he wentto ND , thats all I read and heard about..
You probably stayed at a Holiday Inn Express before too.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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No but I heard U checked in to quite a few before you log in to post in here 
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Let's not rewrite history here. Johnson's success was builty on a VERY large part on Minnesota's stupidity in the trade for Walker. Without that, Johnson would have been as successful in Dallas as he was in Miami with the Dolphins....not doing a whole lot. If Johnson were such a great talent evaluator, I'm pretty sure he would have done SOMETHING in Miami.
As for Quinn, I am more in agreement with Diam, but I'm not sure he'll be top 3-5. I think he will be a great player that will be the face of the franchise for years to come, though. I have watched BQ longer than Diam, in that I have seen him since high school (though most was on film in HS). The guy can play. Period. As Diam pointed out, the OL was putrid and hardly "all star". He can play in this league and play well. This is from one of Frye's biggest defenders on this board., FWIW.
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Coach,
As I read all this chatter, people forget that in the last 20-30years of the NFL, there has only been probably 1 rookie QB that has come in the league and burned it up. And that was Marino! But he had good receivers, a good pass blocking O-line .etc. So in knowing these stats, we will not know anything about BQ or even Frye for atleast 2 years. BQ is better served on the bench and Frye might be able to show us something this year. But all this wondering about BQ is almost useless because the stats and history show us that BQ will need atleast a year or half a year to get used to the speed/d -coverages/offensive reads..etc of football.Hell, if the Browns were totally serious about grooming these two QBs, they would get someone as their QB coach or a vet QB to work with these two. I know you remember that Kosar had Danielson working with him.
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Quote:
The reason Frye was selected over the CB Phil had rated higher was easy..he went BPA with the first pick...he went BPA (and need) with Pool..and again bypassed any QB, but in the third took a flier on a QB..
Phil said that he took BPA throughout the draft and that was the only philosophy to have.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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If Johnson were such a great talent evaluator, I'm pretty sure he would have done SOMETHING in Miami.
At Miami
8-8
9-7
10-6
9-7
As a Browns fan you should know that is something.
Jimmy Johnson draft picks in Dallas that made the Pro-Bowl
Troy Aikman - 6 Pro-Bowls
Emmitt Smith - 8 Pro-Bowls
Russell Maryland - 1 Pro-Bowl
Darren Woodson - 5 Pro-Bowls
Jimmy Smith - 5 Pro-Bowls
Daryl Johnston - 2 Pro-Bowls
Tony Tolbert - 1 Pro-Bowl
Leon Lett - 2 Pro-Bowls
Steve Wisniewski - 8 Pro-Bowls
Mark Stepnoski - 5 Pro-Bowls
Erik Williams - 4 Pro-Bowls
Ron Stone - 3 Pro-Bowls
Jimmy Johnson draft picks in Miami that made the Pro-Bowl
Zach Thomas - 6 Pro-Bowls
Jason Taylor - 5 Pro-Bowls
Sam Madison - 3 Pro-Bowls
Patrick Surtain - 2 Pro-Bowls
How many Browns players have we drafted since 1999 that have gone on to appear in a Pro-Bowl?
I'll take Jimmy Johnson's take on Brady Quinn any day of the week over Quinn's coach.
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You should look at the entire discussion, rather than just the statement. In looking at Russell v Quinn for the number 1 selection, most would have concluded that Russell has the greater potential. I am not buying into a disucssion that Quinn is going to be a flop.
"Because football's a simple game,'' Johnson said. "You don't have a quarterback, you don't have a chance. If you had a quarterback, there wouldn't be a decision to make. You'd just sit there and take Calvin Johnson. But that's not the position the Raiders are in. And from the looks of it, Russell's a better pick than Brady Quinn. It looks to me like Quinn's maxed out his ability, or close to it. Russell has a chance to be really, really good.''
That's my gut feeling, too. Despite hearing some late info on the Raiders leaning toward Quinn at the top, I resisted the temptation to change my mind. Russell just makes too much sense, even though the Raiders face a very, very hard road getting him signed.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Alll I know...
Lerner was smitten with Frye in 2005 (spent time with him prior to draft/told Savage to target him) and by the time last Spring's draft rolled around, Lerner wanted Quinn big time... and the FO knew this loud and clear.
When Quinn started falling and Savage was weighing his options - best believe Lerner was telling him to get it done no matter the cost. Phil can justify it in the media by telling you this and next year's draft class was weak, but Phil was definitely torn over making that trade for Quinn - it wasn't some slam dunk no-brainer (if that's what some think).
To Lerner it was as if his favorite player went to his favorite team. To Savage it was a huge gamble (despite his media justifications).
None of this has a bearing on how Quinn plays ball, but it's an interesting aside if things don't work out. That's why I think Lerner should be held accountable for sticking his hand in player decisions.
It's your decision to believe what you want to believe, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it...
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if Quinn didnt want to be a Cleveland Brown.. I dont think he would have been picked up by us at all...
The Browns are getting more and more players who WANT to be Cleveland Browns... I like that..
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hey mav,
it doesn't surprise me. I wouldn't be surprised if randy isn't as 'hands off' as they like to trumpet.
seems like he's a jerry jones wannabe, and that's really dangerous.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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When Quinn started falling and Savage was weighing his options - best believe Lerner was telling him to get it done no matter the cost. Phil can justify it in the media by telling you this and next year's draft class was weak, but Phil was definitely torn over making that trade for Quinn - it wasn't some slam dunk no-brainer (if that's what some think).
To Lerner it was as if his favorite player went to his favorite team. To Savage it was a huge gamble (despite his media justifications).
My question is how did Phil feel about Frye? We know how Rac feels but how did Phil actually view him? None of this has a bearing on how Quinn plays ball, but it's an interesting aside if things don't work out. That's why I think Lerner should be held accountable for sticking his hand in player decisions.
What other players did he have a hand in? I'll believe what makes sense..and so far everything U've told me has been...logical..
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I have a real problem believing that Lerner made or told Savage to pick any player. He may have told Savage that he liked this guy or that guy, but I have serious doubts that he demanded any particular player be targeted....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Well, for what it is worth...........I heard something very similar. Hell, I actually heard about it before the draft. Quote:
To Lerner it was as if his favorite player went to his favorite team. To Savage it was a huge gamble (despite his media justifications).
I know it was a huge gamble, you know it was a huge gamble, and Savage knows it was a huge gamble. He even said something like this on draft day---- several years from now we will look back to this day as the day that turned the franchise around or will look back and call me an idiot.
Yet, somehow...........the fans on this board don't want to admit that it was a huge gamble to make that trade.
You know what, Mav..............that trade went against Phil's strategy, which is to hit singles and doubles and not gamble and swing for the fences. I wish he would have stayed true to his beliefs. Of course, if BQ does become a franchise QB, then he'll look like a genius. Guess we have to wait and see, but it does make for good discussion.
I do wish Junior would sell the team and go watch that sissy sport full time. 
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Quote:
Yet, somehow...........the fans on this board don't want to admit that it was a huge gamble to make that trade.
I don't wanna pretend to know what most people think, but I believe that most fans with a fair bit of insight KNOW that it was a risk.
If BQ flops, it was a move we'd regret (but still IMO a good gamble to take, considering we've been mired in crap for years).
In other words, if Quinn busts, I'd still not blame Savage for pulling the trigger. Besides, who's to say that whatever 1st round pic we'd have had next year wouldn't be a bust, too? Every draft pick is a risk.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I have a real problem believing that Lerner made or told Savage to pick any player
I don't...U would think a owner wouldn't/shouldn't but I've heard too many times it has..
I don't doubt what Mav just replied to me..he's told me some things that were credible..so if Lerner pressured Phil into this..then tell ya what..if BQ were to bomb out..I would place more blame on the guy who really set this up ..
I know Phil made the pick , but if he was under orders to do it well where does that leave him?
And then what QB were we going to get?
Trent Edwards??
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Oh Hey Attack,, for all I know it's true,, I don't have insider info or anything. It's just that it would really be stupid of Lerner to demand that Savage pick anyone in particular.. Let's face it, Randy may be a whiz at financial dealings, but as far as running a team or picking a player, I doubt he knows more than most of the fans... LOL Just thought of something,, Randy may not know that he doesn't know enough  Oh and Vers,, I'm one of the fans that thinks taking Quinn was a huge risk,, Just an FYI for ya.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I dont think lerner told phil to draft anyone. the rumors were that Randy wanted Phil to draft Brady Quinn so why was Phil actively trying to trade up for Russell and why did he draft Thomas while waiting 20 more spots to take Quinn lol.
I know there are a lot of nonbelievers when it comes to Brady Quinn with the cant win the big game thing and his accuracy in question but Quinn threw 69 tds and only 14 ints in his last 2 years
He didnt win the big games because Notre Dame didnt have enough to win big games. His OL provided no protection. His receivers were so overrated it wasnt funny. Despite those drawbacks he threw 14 interceptions out of 872 passes.
Quinn isnt a Bret Farve risk taker. He isnt big on forcing the ball. He makes more plays with his brain than with anything else by putting the ball where it is his receiver that gets it or noone. More often than not it isnt the great throw that wins games but avoiding the bad throw. I have seen Quinn make some great throws and I have yet to see him make bad decisions that hurt his team.
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Mour, That's part of why I have a wait and see attitude towards Quinn. He had virtually nothing around him yet some wanted him to win games all by himself,, it just doesn't happen but that didn't stop folks from wanting it and for knocking him because he didn't do it.
But for me, it's all about the best person for the job.. whoever wins it,,, that's fine with me.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I agree. I think each qb brings a little something different to the table. Right now i aint completely sold on anyone and although i hate a qb controversy this one is the best thing for the team. we need that guy to step up that the other players believe in without question.
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Question #1 - I dont think Phil had thought of Frye as a franchise guy, but a decent player who could play at this level.
Question #2 - Randy only invloves himself in coaching and QB discussion (from what I'm told). Lerner watches film on QBs.
Frye and Quinn have both been favorites of Lerner going into the draft and have both been selected subsequently by Savage.
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
[/color]
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I don't know how much lean Lerner has on Phil on who to pick......but it doesn't surprise me if he does...
The guy owns the friggn team. If I owned a team, I would make all the first day picks and let the scouts make the 2nd day picks.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Legend
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lol. Tell me you're kidding, please. If you owned the team and knew enough to make the 1st-day picks, why would you even need scouts for the 2nd day?
gmstrong -----------------
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,681 |
OK....I would make the 2nd day picks too.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,341 |
haha Come on now, peen....I like Tennessee whiskey almost as much as you, but never during lunch (or almost never, shall I say).
gmstrong -----------------
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All Pro
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All Pro
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It was a HUGE gamble. I was with a friend during the draft, we were absolutely ecstatic with the Thomas pick...I remember jumping around with raw excitement.
When we traded up for Quinn it was like wow I can't believe they pulled it off, but does he help us THIS year? That's really the important thing. I don't think he does.
We will go into the season with Frye as the starter. If he bombs then Quinn gets thrown into the fire. If Frye doesn't bomb we might win 7 games. If he does we're looking at 4-6 again. People will be calling for Romeo's head.
Rather than look at the lack of talent on the team we'll bring in another coach (I think you mentioned Savage and Ferentz have ties?). Thus starts another cycle of bringing in new players.
Unless this is really a team Savage has designed and Crenell is just the puppetmaster. Which would really raise some questions about what kind of system
we have in place.
One quick question..what defense does Ferentz run? Would we be switching back to the 4-3 if he came in?
"I don't remember any of my catches. I remember the drops." - Kellen Winslow II
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,681
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,681 |
Quote:
haha
Come on now, peen....I like Tennessee whiskey almost as much as you, but never during lunch (or almost never, shall I say).
Neither do I.....I am serious....why let someone else have all the fun??
Had I been selecting players for the Browns since our return....no way would I have done worse....I bet I would be way better as a matter of fact.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
The guy owns the friggn team. If I owned a team, I would make all the first day picks and let the scouts make the 2nd day picks.
If I thought you were really serious, I'd call you dumb
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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If the Ravens moved up to pick him, and Quinn is the second coming, then Savage would be run out of town.
It was the right move.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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