DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum WR Coach Al Saunders on Young Wide Receivers

So we should have another Vet in case the first Vet goes down.

What if the second one does?

Ok we'll bring in another.

What if he gets hurt?

Alright fine, one more..

Well we're up to 4 vets... Better cut some rookies and 2nd year guys..

Too bad we kept Payton over Gabriel last year. But, I guess keeping all your rookies "works out."

I'd take Vincent Jackson or Stevie Johnson over Jordon Payton right now
Jordan Payton is Paul Hubbard 2.0

Not specifically four, no... but they also didn't have to. When Belichick arrived, they already had Terry Glenn, Vincent Brisby, and Troy Brown.

Then, they drafted a TE in 2000.
Then, they drafted two TE's in 2001.
Then, they drafted a TE in the 1st round in 2002, along with two WR's (Daniel Graham, Deion Branch, David Givens).
Then, they drafted a WR and a TE in 2003
Then, they drafted another 1st round TE and a WR in 2004, etc, etc, etc...

They continually invest every year in those positions and have not been shy about going big in a single draft to bolster things when needed. The difference for them is that when Belichick started to build his team, he already had a bit of a foundation to work with - we tore ours down completely.

The present WR situation of every team in the league is 100% the work of their front offices.

So we should cut rookies in favor of inconsistent players that get hurt a lot?

OR is that only AFTER they go and produce on another team?

Hindsight is always 20/20

Made me wonder who said any of that.

I'd like to see a WR contract negotiated and signed by Reid or Kelly...or even Belichik for that matter. Sure, they give a lot of input as to what they want on their roster, and then the FO goes out and signs them. You have no clue as to how much input Hue, Al or any of the coaches have on our FO decisions.

I wish people would stop bringing up Gabriel. There is NO reason that his success in Atlanta would be in any way indicated here. Your thinking goes along the line of "Well chopped onions taste good on a hot dog, so they must taste good on a cupcake."

Please, stop.

As to the WRs, Higgins, Louis, and Payton are all LATE ROUND PICKS. LATE ROUNDERS. If you get a player from the FOURTH ROUND that contributes, IT IS GREAT.

Please, stop.

People on this forum seem to lose their sense when it comes to just being realistic about what you should expect from late round draft picks.

You guys made me use all caps, and I hate using all caps.

It says exactly the same thing as EVERY team in the NFL. At least to my knowledge every team at some point in time dips it's toes into the FA market - whether it's Belichick signing Randy Moss, Michael Floyd or Andrew Hawkins - or any other team signing any WR / Player.

What Mac doesn't understand is that in this day and age, the HC is considered a part of the FO. He has a big office just like the others do. He has the owners ear just like the others do, but Mac somehow thinks the HC is still stuck off out in the fieldhouse behind the endzone with little input to anyone but the players and groundskeeper.

Head Coach is every bit a management position inside a football operation. Mac better start hating them too, because in his world, all front office brass are evil.

Are you being serious or are you just being snarky?

Should I reply in the same manner?

Let me try:

So we should keep rookies who haven't done squat and ended up having as many suspensions as catches over a guy who actually had a pretty darn good year ago in the year we won 7 games?

Wait, you don't want people to express their opinions if they disagree w/you? LOL

Gabriel actually had a productive year when Shanny was here. How did you forget that? You really don't remember all the deep passes where he was wide open? Seriously?

Please STOP telling me how to post!

I agree. And that's in a traditional structure where there is a GM as well - in cases where the HC is has more power, they are even more "the FO".

You guys are letting mac suck you in again.

By now, you should know that he is going to try and make the FO look bad at every turn..........just like others get upset at those of us who try to objective and only want to "hear" positive comments. Both sides are whacked. Ignore him and he'll fade away....

How did you come to this conclusion?

He did. With Shanny. And then the next season he fell off with that OC we got from the Raiders. He had less receptions and significantly less yards.

Then preseason came around, Hue's first year as coach, and he was dropping the ball when he wasn't injured.

In all fairness, Vers. What would you expect Hue to do? I remember this time. Many of us expected Gabriel to be cut. And I don't remember many of us screaming about it. It's too bad the rookie WR's didn't show more this year.

But Gabriel had a great rookie season, a lesser second season, and going into training camp of his third season he looked lousy.... Then we cut him, then he gets signed by the Falcons, put in Shannahan's system, and has a good year.

It's easy to Monday Morning QB the thing, and I don't remember specific folks opinions on this board about cutting him (or even if you were on a hiatus or posting on here at that time), but I do remember that most posters weren't that pissed that we replaced Gabriel for one of the rookies.

A few were wondering why we drafted so many rookies that we would likely have to replace Gabriel...... But, once the rookies were drafted, we knew he had to do well in camp, and he just didn't.........

Monday Morning QB? Am I guilty of that? Are you saying I never talk about our moves ahead of time? Because, if you are, just scroll up in this thread and look at my thought about what I think about this group and the upcoming season.

I have two or three other things to say:

1. I thought Gabriel might be cut. I even discussed it w/YTown. Him or Hawk. However, I didn't think it was the "right" move. Rather, I figured the FO would want to keep "their" guys. And that is the problem w/constantly changing regimes. Good players get discarded for lesser players because they were not chosen by that regime. Now, if you wanna bash me...........bash Joe Thomas, too. Because he has said the same damn thing. Is he an idiot, Monday Morning QB, too?

2. The "in all fairness" comment rubs me the wrong way. I am not trying to be "unfair." I am trying to be fair. I am not taking extreme sides. I try very hard to be objective. And when someone says to me "in all fairness," that implies that I am not being "fair." I resent that implication because I think I am much more "fair" than just about anyone on here.

3. No matter how bad Gabriel ever looked, it was never worse than what Payton gave us last year. I don't see how that is even an argument, but I won't trash you if you believe that Payton had a better season than Gabriel's worst year by saying stuff like "in all fairness."

4. Oh, one more thing. You bring up many of us not screaming about Gabriel getting cut. You are absolutely correct. But...........who cares? Is it about posters being right or wrong? Or, should it be about what's best for the team? Who has a better look at the players? Fans like you and I.........or the coaches? Who gives a flying f.......if a poster is wrong or right? What should matter is if the FO/coaching staff is right or wrong? Saying that posters were wrong does NOT exonerate dumb decisions by the team.

Look, I have a lot better feel for this FO than I did a year ago. I like a lot of their moves and have said so........but, I do not like what they have done w/the WR position and that is what we are discussing here. That doesn't make me a "unfair" or a "Monday Morning QB," and I really wish that we don't make this personal, but instead stick to the facts and even voice our opinions w/out all the BS personal stuff.

This is where written word gets confusing. I was just writing a post off the cuff. I didn't edit, proof read, or whatever. I was inbetween doing stuff for work (Dawgtalkers is an incredible distraction, even in the dead time of the year).

So yeah, trust me. I didn't call you a "Monday Morning QB" or at least I didn't mean to. If I did, I used a poor choice of words.

Nor did I mean that anything was "Unfair" when I said "In all fairness", or imply that you were being unfair or whatever. It was just an expression I wrote, that I didn't put too much thought into, so please don't put too much thought into that either.


So no, let's not make anything personal, because that's not what I'm here for, and it's not what I intended when I wrote my post. I was just trying to make a point about Taylor Gabriel and explain why I thought what happened, happened.



But on to the post..............



Completely agree with you and Joe Thomas. It's a reality unfortunately, as many coaches like guys they feel they know and can trust. But it is one of the things that really sets us back. It's also how guys leave who are successful on other teams, like the Mike Adams', Tashaun Gipsons, Mitchell Schwartz's, K'Wuann Whatever-His-Name-Was (who played nickel with Pettine for two seasons, and then had some issues with the new coaching staff this past year)



Oh, I agree with this. Jordan Payton didn't bring anything to the table last year. Not sure if it's because he missed OTA's and stuff because of UCLA's Graduation or what, he did nothing. But we cut Taylor Gabriel before the season even started. I'm not sure if the coaching staff thought he'd be more valuable over the long-term or if they thought he'd have brought more to the table last year (in which they were clearly wrong, lol). But yeah, Taylor Gabriel in his second year here was much better than Payton's. I'm not sure, production-wise, how you could have a worse season than Payton.......




Oh, I agree, it was not the right decision. I just think that with what they knew then, it wasn't that ridiculous of a decision (at the time) to cut 5'8 165 LB Taylor Gabriel, an unfamiliar player, coming off a lousy second season. Would I suspect that Hue wishes he could take that back, of course. And would I bet that Paul DePodesta wishes that he could have chosen one less WR in the draft so that he could keep Gabriel on the team, of course........

Okay..........I apologize. I misinterpreted your intent. I'm probably gun-shy. LOL My mistake.

Hopefully, one or two of the young guys will have a breakout year.

It's funny to read some of these posts today and to look for what type of posts they were making during the draft and offseason. Some of the armchair GMs on here were loving the Payton pick and trashing Gabriel for his bad season two years ago. It really puts things in context (some people just want to be right).

Make believe world.

Pro Football Focus says WR corps is Cleveland Browns biggest weakness


Analytics website Pro Football Focus believes the Cleveland Browns still possess one of the bottom five rosters in the NFL, and the WR corps is a big reason why.
The Cleveland Browns wide receiving corps wasn’t great in 2016–and then the organization lost its 1,000-yeard receiver to free agency.

Cleveland replaced Terrelle Pryor with Kenny Britt, but the move is not viewed as an upgrade.

Additionally, the Browns have second-year Baylor product Corey Coleman, in addition to his fellow members of the 2016 NFL Draft class Ricardo Louis, Rishard Higgins and Jordan Payton.

Add it all up, and the Browns receiving corps could be in a world of trouble come September.

Check out this blurb from PFF, via ESPN.

The Browns have invested heavily in young receivers — they picked five in the 2016 draft — but have yet to see significant returns on the group. Outside of Kenny Britt, their receiving corps remains more potential than production. Terrelle Pryor, who signed with the Redskins in free agency, had almost double the targets of the rest of the receiver corps combined last season.
Minicamp was filled with positive stories about Ricardo Louis and Hollywood Higgins, but PFF nailed it in its potential versus production comment.

These players were not first round picks in 2016 for a reason, so they should’ve been given the opportunity to get their feet wet in the NFL.

But now they’re a year into their career. If Louis, Higgins and Payton are to have long NFL careers, they’ve got to start showing something on the field.

PFF projects Louis will be start the season in the slot, with Coleman starting opposite Britt on the outside.

I’m a big fan of the preschool approach to PFF. If you see red around a player’s name, starting hollering “DANGER!” Think of it like school. A 100 grade is perfect. A score in the 50s equals a major F. PFF gave Louis a 51 grade, while Coleman graded out slightly better (53.5).

For what it’s worth, the website didn’t do much to factor in rookie David Njkoku into the the Browns’ passing game.
The Miami rookie figures to be key part of Hue Jackson’s offense this fall.
link

We aren't at the final 53 yet so at this moment in time, Jfan is absolutely correct.

Clearly his rookie year was lost but stand by my stance that based off paytons tape he could be a good 2 or 3 wr. Probably less likely now but it is nice to hear he's possi my gotten back on track. I liked his film a lot more than louis and higgins.

Browns fans and FO are probably the worst WR evaluators in the league. Actually Wr's should be tabu with the Browns, just look at the the Wr's we have passed this past years, this draft alone.

Not speaking of the Wr's we have drafted.... Colemon is a bust, better face it and move on...

Hope I'm wrong, but Njoku will be in this long list also...

Explain the Njoku comment, please. What have you seen that looks so bad already? Looks like a mismatch waiting to happen IMO. What are you seeing there? Curious.

Hope I'm wrong, but Njoku will be in this long list also...


Based on what?

We really, really need this year's 1st rounders to pan out. IMO, Peppers and Njoku must be good to consider this a good draft

I don't judge a draft by the first rounders only. If they bust out and a few others end up good to better players, I would consider that a good draft.

I don't care where in the draft process we find them.

His ability, or lack, to catch...

Its not only his stats, but on film, and IMHO, he looks very bad catching the ball.

Catching the ball is an intrinsic WR ability/talent, very hard to overcome and that trumps any other skills a WR/TE can have.

Hope I'm wrong, but we had this conversation before regarding other Browns WR's...

He also has problems running routes by the way...

Raw physical ability seldom is enough to make it on the NFL, but I guess we are going to see if that's true with Njoku and Jabrill...

I think that saying he has a lack of ability to catch should be qualified. He has very good ability to catch the ball, but has had an issue with "focus drops" (not following the ball into his hands). This is fixable. His drop to target ratio isn't terrible, so with good coaching, growth, attention to detail, and experience, he could improve that number drastically. Also, while his route running isn't particularly refined (another area that will likely improve, particularly under Saunders) he makes good adjustments to the ball. And, he's a physical freak once the ball's in his hands. Here's his PFF scouting report:

What he does well

Tracks ball well downfield.
Good top-end speed.
Strong balance and body control, likely his biggest strength.
Good at using his hands and size to create late separation at the catch point.
Strong hands, tough for DBs to break up passes after he has the ball in his grasp.
Tough to press him with smaller defenders.
Effective option-route runner, uses linebackers leverage against them to create space in zones.
Consistently seals 7-tech to the inside on front side of gap-scheme runs.
Locates well when moving to the 2L in run game.

Biggest concern:

Had seven drops on 71 catchable targets over the past two seasons, majority coming when open, has a tendency to not see the ball all the way in.
Slow acceleration, doesn’t explode off the line.
Not overly elusive, forced many missed tackles in college based off size and balance.
Struggles when tasked with sealing 8/9-tech’s to the outside on front side of gap-scheme runs; often gets beat to the inside forcing RB to bounce the run to the outside.
Can get too tall when moving laterally blocking inline, allows defenders to get under his pads and control the movement.

Link

We should cut him now.

Cut the whole team and start over.

Again?