DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about winning 7 games ... really? -- Terry Pluto

Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about winning 7 games ... really? -- Terry Pluto

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2017/07/cleveland_browns_have_terry_ta_126.html



By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer

terrypluto2003@yahoo.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- "Do you think the Browns can win six or seven games this year?"

I was asked that question by a fan when I spoke at Lakewood Library. My quick answer? "No."

The audience laughed. No is a fair answer. No isn't a rejection of the overall plan of the Browns' front office.

No is to acknowledge last season's 1-15 record. The Browns really were that bad. Obviously, they intended to win more. But consider the following:

1. They had the NFL's second-youngest roster. They had more rookies playing more snaps than any other team -- by more than 25 percent.

2. Veteran center Alex Mack was leaving, no matter what. But free agents Travis Benjamin, Mitchell Schwartz and Tashaun Gipson also left without receiving significant offers to stay.

3. The Browns didn't spend much on veteran free agents to replace those who left.

4. They had their third coaching staff in four years.

5. As usual, they had no quarterback.

None of that adds up to a formula for winning many games. Throw in a few significant injuries, and the team finished with a franchise-worst 1-15 record.

IT IS BETTER

So the Browns turn the page to 2017. Since the Sashi Brown front office took over, the team has done a superb job of piling up salary cap room, draft picks and young players.

As I wrote last week, the Browns will spend $44 million in 2017 on free agents -- 10th highest this season. But they still have the NFL's most salary cap room -- $55 million. Check out overthecap.com for that and other excellent information.

1. They replaced Ray Horton with Gregg Williams as the defensive coordinator. That is an upgrade.

2. They signed Kevin Zeitler and JC Tretter. Both free agents will help the offensive line.

3. They retained linebacker Jamie Collins, who should be an impact player.

4. They gave a lot of young players experience. Often, players don't show what they will be in the NFL until their second pro seasons.

5. Quarterback is probably still a mess, but I prefer the current troika (Cody Kessler, Brock Osweiler and DeShone Kizer) to last season's Robert Griffin III, Josh McCown and Kessler. The 2016 group had two quarterbacks (McCown and Griffin) with major injury histories. This group at least has been healthy in the past and it's younger.

6. Hue Jackson is in his second season as head coach, and with his own offense.

7. The only significant free agent loss is Terrelle Pryor. He is replaced by Kenny Britt. We'll see who has the better season.

8. The Browns had the draft's No. 1 pick and chose the best player -- Myles Garrett. They didn't get tricky.

KEEPING IT REAL

You can bring up a lot of other positive points, but the Browns will once again be one of the youngest teams. As ESPN's Pat McManamon points out, the Browns' current roster has 56 players under 25.

Experience is a major factor in winning. But in 2015, the Browns had the 16th-oldest team and the highest-paid defense. They finished 3-13 and everyone was correctly fired. So paying a bunch of older guys (especially free agents) isn't a winning formula.

In the big picture, the Browns are doing the right things -- draft a lot of players and mix them in with a veteran coaching staff. This season, they correctly spent on some talented free agents.

Furthermore, I don't expect them to treat the regular season as an extended training camp. While that wasn't the sole propose of 2016, it often felt that way with so many young players pressed into action.

But the team doesn't have enough depth and experience to go 7-9 in the AFC North. Even 6-10 appears very optimistic. On the other hand, it doesn't have Josh Gordon, Johnny Manziel and other seriously troubled souls -- players who were expected to have meaningful roles.

A team can always take chances with a player. The Browns are doing that with rookie Caleb Brantley. But multiple offenders such as Justin Gilbert (now suspended for a year) drag down everyone who cares about the orange helmets.

I haven't picked a final record. I'll wait for the end of training camp. My expectations are the team will be not only be improved, but far more interesting than a year ago. I like the general direction of the franchise.

That said, let's not expect a huge jump in the standings.

ABOUT THE BROWNS

1. I hope this is right: Profootballfocus has rated the Browns as the No. 2 offensive line for 2017, behind Philadelphia.

"The off-season free agent spending spree could pay huge dividends in Cleveland. JC Tretter and Kevin Zeitler both bring above average grades at center and guard ... the only question mark comes at right tackle where Shon Coleman at least looked competent in his 62 snaps as a rookie."

2. PFF's ranking of the Browns' AFC North rivals? Pittsburgh is No. 3, Baltimore 23rd and Cincinnati 31st among the offensive lines.

3. The big question is Coleman. Who knows if he is ready. His backup is Cameron Erving, and I have major doubts about him anywhere on the offensive line. He failed at center in 2016.

4. The Browns drafted Florida State's Rod Johnson in the fifth round. He is working behind Joe Thomas at left tackle. Just as the Browns went slowly with Coleman in 2016, they will do the same with Johnson. He really isn't a candidate to start.

5. Guard Spencer Drango had some good moments as a rookie. He will back up Joel Bitonio and Zeitler. Bitonio is recovering from major foot surgery and is expected to be ready, but it's important to have Drango ready just in case.

6. Guard John Greco is still on the roster. Like Bitonio, he had major foot surgery. But he may not be ready for the opener.

7. The Browns will work Anthony Fabiano behind Tretter at center. Austin Reiter is recovering from major ACL knee surgery. He looked good in his one start at center last year. They hope he is ready by the regular season.

8. Tretter is a very talented center. But he also has an extensive injury history. He missed his rookie season (2013) with a broken leg. He played only eight games in 2014. In 2015, he stayed healthy. In 2016, he missed eight games. So it's important that Reiter or Fabiano be prepared as a backup.

A good offensive line would help a ton. I am pleased with Terry Talkin' — as usual. Seems on the money here. Hope we get some nice surprises.

I am afraid that all of these high expectations will lead to more firings when reality sets in.

That's one thing I worry about after this year. Let's be realistic: we still stink. We have no offensive weapons and no QB ... and our secondary is bottom of the barrel too. I'm hoping the DL and OL improvements will help slightly, but let's not pretend that we're going to be pushing .500. We're still a 3-4 win team

We should have won 3 last year.

I don't think anybody will get fired unless we see stupid decisions being made. I am not going to guess what those might be if they happen, but we will know it if they happen.

It's not now, but at some point wins are going to be a measuring stick.

One could say, we "should" have lost every game last year. The SD game was pretty close and I think they missed a late FG to win. Is that right?

I just don't like all of these high expectations. It typically leads to firings. We have a ways to go before we are competitive.

I don't believe you "will know it when you see it." People say the same dumb ass stuff every year. Poor clock management. Terrible play calling. Inability to develop young talent. I think most posters don't know crap about any of that stuff, but it sure sounds good.

This team is not quite ready. I suggest tempering the enthusiasm and allowing the plan to develop over time.

Also...the FG was blocked by Meder.

I don't think most are too stupid to see stupid decisions. I am also not advocating being a Monday morning QB. Anybody can do that.

As I have said many times in many places, I think the staff will be safe this year. I won't say no matter what. I would expect they will have to win a few games and look decent in others.

For a guy with a 9-23 record as a head coach, Hue is about as safe as one can get. I don't think Hue hits the hot seat until next season. If by the bye we are still sitting on 1 win, he might get the axe at that point.

That said, I don't think that will happen. Hue is a good coach. I would expect to see us win maybe 5-6 games this year and continue to build the following season. If that 5-6 wins this year turns in to 4 wins, so be it. I don't think I need to temper my expectations more than that. I really think we will win more, so if we can't patch together 4 wins, no, I won't be happy.

j/c:

Two things:

--Is anyone insinuating we couldn't have lost that SD game?

--We don't have a clear-cut QB. Our WR is one of--if not the--worst in the league. Our secondary is awful. We are very inexperienced. The guys that are here have not experienced how to win games. Yet, people are expecting 6 or 7 wins? I hope we win that many, but I sure as heck don't expect that to happen.

The best way to predict how many games we could win is to go game by game and compare starting QBs. That means we have a chance against the Bears, Jets, Texans, and JAGs. A chance. They also have a chance against us. Call it 50/50. Throw in a possible upset because another team just has a bad day and your ceiling is probably 3 wins.

The only things that are really important this year are:

1. Is the team competitive?
2. Who's running the show? Dee or Jimmy? If you're in the camp of being fine with another double digit loss season for a better chance at long term success, then you better hope that Dee is running the show. I believe she's the only smart one of the two and will act without emotion.
3. Kizer's development. It is pointless not to start him from day 1. Protect him in the game with play calls but there is NO substitute for experience. Let's see if the kid can play. The days of "ruining" QBs by starting them too early are long gone.

Expectations should be low in terms of win total but high in terms of long term plan. But we should start to see the long term plan develop on the field regardless of wins.

Above all else, no firings!

Amen!

High expectations may be trickling through some media outlets, and among some fans, but I doubt the FO, coaching staff, and ownership are expecting any more than solid effort and growth from an improving roster with huge question marks at QB, on the WR corps, and in the secondary. The defense is working under a new system, the O-line has never worked together (sporting a brand new center), and some of our "best players" are probably rookies. On top of all that, ownership certainly must know another round of firings would do more harm than good, unlikely resulting in an upgrade in personnel. I wouldn't expect a rash of firings after this season, even with a 2-14 record. JMHO

Well we finished with more points than they did. So no, we couldn't have..

GC. I thought there were no plans for Reiter or Fabiano, and that Marcus Martin was the best option to be the backup center.

I thought Coleman and Erving looked very bad <-- being nice, in game 16 and the RT spot would go to either Drango, or Rod Johnson.

Maybe neither Coleman or Erving are good enough to earn a spot on the roster, maybe they have improved and had no opportunity to show it. I think the MAXimum number of O-line spots is 9.

As for 7-9? Take the top 5 skilled position players on offense, RB, WR, TE, and there are just too many question marks.

Actually if you had to put a theme on the upcoming season, many question marks seems a perfect fit.
Qb's, Db's Front 7, New D coord. The O-line, The Wideouts, are all question marks.

The only non question marks, Duke Crowell, maybe Kessler, and the veteran hall of fame, and experienced Browns, with those you know what you have.

(If suppose, Benjamin, Pryor, even Manziel, but Barnidge, or even Gabriel and Hawkins, Gipson, were still around;) then 7-9 would be able to predict or not; because good or bad, we know what these players can do and can expect what they can bring to the table on any given Sunday.
The current team is still unknown; much of the experienced guys are new to Cleveland.
Pitt: still good
Balt: maybe better
Cinn: maybe worse

Browns: many question marks.

I certainly hope you're right. Haslam has proven himself to be nothing more than a marketing guy to this point. Losses aren't good marketing. I hope he's learned the error of his ways but I'll believe it when I see it.

I think ^ that works for last year, but not 2017. I think it's time to expect the Browns to Win NOW or die trying.

I think the basement is 4 wins, the ceiling is 7, and I think Hue needs to win 5 to keep his job safe.

Even if they don't fire Hue Jackson, I think it's time to make him think he might be, because just by postgame interviews last year, this guy seems realll ok after losses, and I don't want a complacent HC.

... other thought. The Minnesota game in London is a must win. It's halfway around the world, the players are going to have to get up about 3:30 am eastern time, that's 2:30 am Minnesota time, and if you think Minnesota is going to be "up" to go halfway around the world to play the "hapless" (in their minds) Cleveland Browns, that's crazy. Minn. is not going to care about that game so Cleveland HAS to win that one.

If you can't beat the NY Jets, when both teams are supposedly awful, but you are on the upswing, they are on the downswing, and you are at home, for your first really "not overmatched" game, then just get rid of your coach right then!

And if the ceiling is 3, meaning only 1 more win all year long? Then they might as well not even suit up all calander year. They've got to win games, and win now.

If they start 0-4, (which probably they will) But, if they start 0-4 and don't even hold the lead, or stay competitive, make it close; then I want Hue Jackson feeling the heat that he might not even make it past the bye week to keep his job.

I'm not saying they have to fire him, but he needs to feel the pressure, because I don't like the way this coach seems to be OK with not winning.
The Browns need to be built to win now!

I think 3-5 wins is about right. The main thing is to see this team develop and be competitive. We should see them playing better as the season progresses. I don't think Hue likes to lose any more than any other coach. I believe he was overwhelmed by what he was seeing last year. He probably never lost like that in his life and there really weren't any answers especially with all the injuries. I believe he is a good coach and good for us at this time. The FO and everyone else has to be patient and let things play out. Let the players develop and gain experience.

j/c

I know many of you will think what I'm about to say is full of manure. But this is what I see looking at the State of the Browns.

Jimmy Haslam is a smart and successful businessman. He didn't start Pilot/Flying J, but he built it from small player to a giant player in that industry. You don't do something like that without smarts and organizational skills. When he bought the Browns, the firing of his first FO/HC was pretty much a foregone conclusion. He was partnered by the NFL with Joe Banner to help him. Whatever your opinion of Banner, that was an arranged marriage.

MISTAKE #1

After firing Shurmer/Heckert, they missed their primary target when Chip Kelly signed with Philly, and I think they were so confident they were going to sign him, they didn't really have a HC search plan ready to go, and the scramble to do so scared candidates away. They hired Chud because he would take the job.

MISTAKE #2

I don't know who made the decision to fire Chud after 1 year, but it smells like someone thought they could do better with a more organized HC search. The problem here was the dysfunction between Banner and Lombardi which got so bad, Haslam fired them both before a HC could be found. Haslam hired Pettine and promoted Farmer, again almost out of desperation after the best candidates avoided the situation. Pettine and Farmer brought their own brand of dysfunction.

LEARNING FROM MISTAKES

I have no proof, but I believe that over the course of year 2 of the Pettine/Farmer debacle, Jimmy and Sasha started having a series of conversations about how to fix the team. They talked, researched, and talked to other owners/GM/HC. They formulated a plan, and as soon as the '15 season was over, they put that plan into action.

That plan involved stripping the team down to the foundation and building a new team from the ground up. The plan was to build through the draft which is a slower process than buying developed free agents. They needed a HC who was a natural leader and had the strength and patience to keep the team focused on long term goals rather than short term success. Jimmy knew, going in, that it was a multi-year process that meant some (more than 1) bad seasons before the rebuilt team could become competitive. He said as much in his 1/3/16 press conference.

At this point in time, the plan looks to be on track. Jackson looks like the right HC. The first year under the plan was miserable, but they expected it to be, it was a stripped down team. They accumulated draft picks and used those picks to draft high upside players. Some won't pan out, but they are expecting that. They spent this off season fortifying the trenches, concentrating on both the OL and DL. They haven't gambled a high draft pick on a QB with question marks. They are looking for improvement in the second year, but aren't expecting overnight success, 4-5 wins would be considered on track, as long as the team is more competitive and the young players are getting better. I don't think a 4 win season will see anyone fired. I think this team is right where Jimmy expected it to be.

Cleveland Browns raising expectations in AFC North: Crowquill

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/index.ssf/2017/07/cleveland_browns_raising_expec.html



By Ted Crow, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- With training camp still four weeks away, 2017 expectations for the Cleveland Browns are positive but not overblown because they play in the always-tough AFC North.

Unlike the other AFC North teams which are set at quarterback, the Browns haven't found a QB yet, but they do feel good about the guys they have -- Cody Kessler, Brock Osweiler and DeShone Kizer.

Cleveland also expects to be able to better protect their quarterback and put more pressure on the opposing team's quarterback because of improved line play on both sides of the ball.

Will all these expectations translate into more wins? Maybe, but because of the Browns' strength of schedule, especially early in the season, Cleveland could be better than last year and still not have the wins to show for it.

To be fair, I think that is pretty much all owners. Most of them sold a product of some sort, and were pretty darn good at doing that. Jimmy sold gasoline, coffee and eats. Art Blank sold building materials. The list goes on.

Story you want write at the end. Nothing we can do will give us credit until we prove people unconditionally wrong. Need to take the cheap shot and negative to the bRowns regardless.

I know we have stunk it up unforgivably badly in the past. But we might be turning the corner.

Go, Browns!

I believe my point holds a lot of value based on the evidence. Haslam has changed FO's and coaches as much as some people change shirts. He addressed uniform changes, the "stadium experience" and everything to do with marketing while the actual product may have actually gotten even worse. That's the evidence that has been presented to us. I'm not manufacturing that.

Now as a Brown fan I hope he's learned from those mistakes. I hope he understands that patience and not mass changes are what helps make a good team. He claimed while with the Steelers he was learning to do it the right way, but since owning the Browns he's been doing it the opposite way.

I'm just looking at what has happened since he got here. We're both hoping for the same thing but I need some evidence it will happen.

I don't want to know anybody who doesn't change a shirt in a year. You know some who do that?

That said, as I said, all owners are selling a product. They don't coach.Paul Brown might have been the last actual coach who was also a owner. I think he lasted longer than Halas. I could be wrong.

Jerry Richardson was a good player who became a owner in Carolina.


Am I missing some others?

The point is owners sell product. Be it gasoline or football tickets. I am not sure why you seem to think this is exclusive to Jimmy Haslam.

I fully expect to see a team that reflects "Win NOW or die trying". Hue was able to do something very few coaches are able to do: to have such a high level of faith and confidence in him from his players after such a poor season. The only way I can see him having been able to do that is to have gotten them to focus on the long game.

But a lot of these guys have had a taste of what the NFL is about. I think the expectation of his players last year was to work hard, compete, and become professionals. This season I think this coaching staff should be pushing an expectation that they can win games.

But Hue and Co. have to hold up their end and put these guys in a position to win. Vers has brought up legit points about Horton not having any talent to work with last season. My main issue with Horton was that he called his defenses from the standpoint that they were already out matched. While I know that was the reality most weekends, you've become self defeating when you coach that way. What do I mean by this? Think if the rodeo. Dude climbs up on that bull and tries to hold on for 8 seconds. That's his sole focus. Nothing else. And that's what I felt about Horton's defense: just trying to hold on for 4 quarters. Problem when you play it that way, you don't give your guys many opportunities for success or to make that big play.

I really think we need at least 1 win in the first 4 games. 2 would be awesome and I think will set the tone for a very interesting season. But if we still haven't gotten a W by the BYE... I just don't see how Hue will be able to keep the player's confidence from unraveling. Maybe he's that good of a motivator... who knows?

It's a young team, but a team I think can take advantage of some momentum if they can just get it started.

How do posters here presume that Hue doesn't feel pressure to win? Or is alright with losing? It makes no sense to think either of those things. No sense at all. In fact, I 'm kind of amazed by it. NFL head coaches start at the earliest steps of their profession knowing that they have to win to stay employed, with the occasional rare outlier. They are under brutal pressure every day. And people on this board say they need to feel more?? Unbelievable.

I agree w/this. You could see it tearing him up. He even got emotional at one of his pressers after a game. He did his best to keep the young and not very talented team together, but yeah.........the losses were eating at him.

I don't think any coach in the NFL or D1 likes losing. If they did, they'd be coaching baseball.

I have one more thing to add in defense of Hue.

Almost everyone agrees that the Browns completely tore the team down and it was a complete rebuild.

Yet now, people are acting like we might be right around .500 a year later after a complete tear-down. That does not even make sense.

If you are okay w/ownership and the FO doing the complete tear-down and starting over, then you should damn well be patient and give them time to rebuild the team.

Yes, ineed. But, it's his duty to keep the "stiff upper lip" as the English say. Just as he's not going to toss a guy under the bus who may not be performing up to expectations. He's got to keep putting on the brave face, no matter what.

two thoughts, throw. first I never heard or saw one thing from hue Jackson to suggest he is "ok " with losing. nothing. second the Browns are in no way built to win now. probably half the roster is first or second year players. it is a process and we are in the middle of it. I want all the wins we can get but our coach should in no way feel "heat".

I must have mistaken Hue's lack of showing anger in a post game presser for a lack of passion or feeling at having another loss; and then presumed apathy.

I want my coach to get angry! One Time!

Just my two cents ... But whether you want to debate we could have gone 0-16 or 3-13 ... Whatever, that's fine and it's subjective. What I think most of all would agree with is that last year we didn't need to be very much better or very much more consistent to have been likely to win 3 more games. I think we've improved a lot more than the little needed to close out the missed opportunity last year.

I think Pluto is about dead nuts on with his article. Brown's are unlikely to win 7. It's not impossible but it'd require several things all to call just right. 4 or 5 wins seems much more probable. QB, Njoku, Coleman x2, peppers and our secondary are all areas of uncertainty. Training camp and pre-season will tell us a lot.

Yeah, so will Kizer's progression. It's safe to say that Kessler and Osweiller are not good enough QBs to win 7 games with our team. Is Kizer good enough? Most likely not, at least as a rookie. But he's the one with the highest upside and nobody really knows what he'll be like

I know most on here think our secondary is bad, but we have made some strides. Aside from one FS were not looking to bad.

I think that is a perfect synopsis of how things went down and where the Browns are today. Nicely done.

FS yes.
Haden hasn't been good for a few years. Yes been injured, sure. But it's a big ? And would be a giant assumption to think otherwise.
Taylor looked good .... For the first time in his NFL career so he's a ? Too and he wasn't good in every game.
BBC I liked a lot but only as a Nicole back in my opinion.
Peppers, while I'm optimistic is another ? Too

In response to saying Kessler isn't good enough to win 7 games .... I disagree. Yes he needs to improve but I think he's going to be capable of 7 wins...... Whether he can win playoff games or strap a team on his back .... Different question.

romeo won 6 games with a completely gutted roster in his first year thanks to a very weak schedule. so 7 for this team isn't a grand reach or anything.

The key to whether our secondary looks good, passable, or bad, will be the pass rush. Last year we allowed QBs to hang in the pocket without pressure. That makes it incredibly difficult for a DB to cover.