DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about winning 7 games ... really? -- Terry Pluto

It's not exclusive to Jimmy Haslam. The way Haslam has treated the team more like a marketing program than actually trying to build the team has been exclusive to Jimmy Haslam. The way he has changed coaches and FO's so often is exclusive to Jimmy Haslam.

Face it Peen, Haslam has botched every move he's made in terms of coaching staffs and FO's since he's been here. I know you feel a need to stick up for the guy, but geez, it's as obvious as the nose on your face.

We are both rooting for Haslam to do well. We both wish the best for the Browns. Maybe we should just leave it at that since you obviously aren't going to own up to the cluster he created since he's been here.

I'm pretty sure Haslem understands that winning is the ultimate marketing tool.

Did he screw up the FO/HC bit the first few years? Yes. Obviously.

But I don't think that means he cares "more" about marketing than winning.

From his resume', marketing is pretty much all he knew to that point.

Peen made a good point that marketers have bought NFL teams and found success. It's just a question of the learning curve. Some adjust well and some don't. While I'm sure he cares about winning, when it comes to his success in business, that came from an evolving, ever changing marketing strategy. We saw that policy since he bought the team to this point.

Now we were told that this time is different. And I certainly hope that proves to be true. But let's look at where my concern came from and how that correlates to what we've seen so far.

Here is a link to his introductory news conference after purchasing the Browns. Please pay close attention just how much marketing is concentrated on in this news conference. Things such as "It's a marketing world". There's far more discussion of marketing than building a winning team.

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...am-iii-1.324801

We all hope he's learned that patience is the biggest quality needed to build a winning team. But to this point we've seen none of that.

When you don't have much to sell in the way of on field play, you sell what you can.

Jimmy was guilty of the same thing virtually every coach and FO we've had is: they underestimated just how big of a task rebuilding this franchise truly is.

I actually think his biggest mistake was that he wasn't hands on enough to begin with.

You need to have an average QB to have a real chance of winning in the NFL. The Browns have yet to find a consistent one in almost two decades. Once an average QB or better is found, the Browns success will be better.

We came soooo close with Hoyer

It is really this simple.

It is a big task to rebuild this team. Our Browns were so bad that the team needed to be built position by position. I feel we may only win 3-5 games this year with the hope we will make steady progress and be more competitive in all our games unlike last year. What we also need is for us to stay relatively healthy and what I mean by that is no major injuries. We have had a lot of injuries over the past few seasons and we need reps so each unit can gel and become better. Our young guys need to play so we can see what we have.

I am NOT arguing that our pass rush was good or bad. It was bad for the most part. However, the secondary got beat early and often. Most of the time, it had nothing to do w/the pass rush being poor. It had more to do w/the secondary getting burned early.

I would go as far to say that they got beat so early that the pass rush didn't have time to get to the qb. And if that is the case again this year, that "monstrous" front seven will not get that many sacks.

I addressed this some time back. I think our DBs last year were peeking in to the backfield. Not sure if this was something they were asked to do to provide run support or not.

Williams has made it clear he wants the DBs covering their guy. Don't get beat early. I think we will see marked improvement in this area. At least we should. The message is pretty clear. If you are going to get beat over your head, make it 30 yards downfield, not 5-10 yards.

j/c

Evaluating the 2016 Browns is almost impossible. Everything and darn-near everyone was new. Then the injury bug settled in. The critiquing of every single unit needs an asterisk for some almost-unbelievable occurrence(s) that would be hard to make up for a movie.

The OL was decimated with injuries and Cam Erving. Two starters injured their foot the same way and then had the same surgery. Out starting RT is out of football at the moment. Our starting QB got hurt running out of bounds in the first game of the year...his backup got hurt in the next damn game. We played Charlie Whitehurst for half a game. Our best receiver can't get eligible. Our promising 1st Rd pick broke his hand...IN PRACTICE. Our RBs ran behind Alvin Bailey at times. Our most-productive TE & WR are no longer on the team.

Our defense is mercifully no longer running a 3-4 with a bunch of 4-3 talent...but they tried to be a 3-4 all last year. The DC is bye-bye. Our best defender came via trade in the middle of the year. Our starting CB had groin surgery after the season. Our #2 CB was a throw-in on draft day. Our nickle CB seemed to have lost his mind/drive/? and is out of football. Our best DL at the end of TC was out for the year...before the season even started.

Our frickin' Kicker could have one the Miami game for us...but he met the holder and snapper Saturday night and they played together the next afternoon. Our Punter was acquired Sept 3 - about a week before the season started - and his name is Britton. Nothing wrong with that name...but I don't know of any other Britton out there.

How in the world can we accurately evaluate that kind of thing? Every comment needs an asterisk.

You can comment on the OL...but what about the QB play? You can comment on the QB play...but what about the OL and WR talent? You can comment on the DL...but what about the secondary? You can comment on the secondary...but what about the DL? I understand that those things are ALWAYS intertwined....but I've never seen such a confluence of S%&$! to the degree that EVERY POSITION ON THE TEAM dealt with last year. Even the K & P!!!

We will still do our best/worst to evaluate and critique. Everyone will be right...and wrong. Simply saying "who the hell knows?" is no fun...but would be most-often the correct evaluation.

That's a long way for me to predict 4-5 wins and a competitive team in 12 of 16 games overall.

I think we can win more, but I can go with that.

I'm probably being way too optimistic, but if a bunch of things go our way we could win 7 games, maybe a couple more and threaten for the playoffs.

There's no harm in dreaming a little bit - it don't cost a thing. If we falter and only win a handful, I expect Haslam to use reason, logic and intelligence and not blow this thing up two years into the rebuild. And by Haslam, I mean Dee. Her husband had already shown to be a terrible owner - he can't recognize good leaders... and good leaders should be able to do that.

The main thing I'm hoping for is improvement, especially for our second-year players. This is the time they need to start showing us that they're getting better.
Oh, and if a QB could step up and seize the job, that'd be huge, as well.

You and I are both painfully aware of how many times we've been part of conversations like this. Heck, we've even propped each other up on consecutive seasons when each of us was at his breaking point.

I truly, truly TRULY hope that this is the last time either one of us must use this sentence for many, many years.

Browns are truly overdue for a run of success and respectability. A decade of >.500 and semi-regular postseason trips would be a nice start...

The playoff talk might be a bit out there, but I don't think that 7 wins is the impossible dream.

This year will be a good guage on our player selection process. Some of last years players should take a step forward. A few already have. Both Ogbah and Kessler looked pretty good as rookies. I think both are on the road to being good. With Kessler you have to keep in perspective where he was drafted and his position. Not many Great QB's come out of the 3rd round when you look at the total picture. He looks like he will be able to play in the NFL for a long time in some capacity, so in my book that makes him a pretty good 3rd round QB selection. It's time for a receiver or two to show up, maybe guys like Nassib and Shobert need to take a step forward.

+1, best summary I've read of last year AND shape of our team- unbelievable, yet FACT- AND some homers state we are playoff bound- how to predict our season- we've been cellar dwellers forever it seems- IF we won five games that's 400% better than last year...GO Browns!!!

While I can't say that i'd expect a 7 win season, that's what i'm going into the season to hope for.

I agree. We didn't really lose anyone, besides Pryor from last year. Pryor we replaced with Britt, who i'm hoping will play at the level that Pryor did last year. (That doesn't mean that I prefer Britt over Pryor, as Pryor might be a much better player THIS year because of potential to grow).

I just don't see how we don't improve, and I think we'll improve substantially. I guess the question is, how will that improvement correlate to wins and losses.

I agree, and why earlier I said I didn't think seven wins is impossible.

I don't just sit here and make bold statements, or simply pull numbers out of a hat and decide to go with that number. I have given this some thought and to me it boils down to two X factors. One on O and one on D.

The X factor on O is the running game. We did a good job of it last year. We just didn't do it enough. Hue has said he wishes he ran the ball more. I think this year we will. We have improved the line, and the line is much deeper this year. Being able to control the ball is going to tighten games. I see a big improvement in that area.

The X factor on D is even bigger. William is going to make a difference, but the biggest improvement is going to the 4-3 D. This isn't a message to say I think that is a better D. What I am saying is that D plays to our strengths. The D line is and was the strength of the defense. This year we will have four of our best players on the field every play.

On the backside of that, people say our DBs are the weak link but I think our backers are just as weak if not weaker. Last year we put four of them on the field. This year, we take one off. Trade a weaker player for a better player. Also add in we will probably play five DBs in most cases, we just removed another weak link to help shore up the back end of the D.

For those reasons, I believe we will see a marked improvement in our defensive play. If those guys catch the fire in Williams' belly, we might be really good on D this year.

I agree with this. Our team just looks much stronger as a 4-3 Defense IMO. Our defensive line looks like a strength (which benefits all facets of the game), and i feel like we have some real depth behind it. Nassib, Orchard, Cam Johnson as backup DE's. Danny Shelton & Meder at the 1 Technique & a combo of Des Bryant, Brantley/Big Larry/Rhodes at the 3 Tech.


Collins and Kirskey are a wonderful combo at LB. Especially with Collins getting a full offseason with us.

And I love just having a D-Coordinator on the field. With a Veteran Defense, a D-Coordinator in the booth seems to make some sense, but with a young defense, I think it's better to have the coach down on the field.



I think having a defense that can get off the field and slow down the points scored should help the running game big-time. That's what I'm really hoping to improve.



And then of course, as you said, adding that massive Zeitler & adding JC Tretter should be a big boost as well.

If Coleman can stay healthy, Ricardo Louis comes on like he's supposedly been doing, and we can get some help from DeValve/Njoku, we'll have some pieces to run a vertical offense, like Hue wants to run.


Then everything just falls on the QB. Can Cody (or Brock/Kizer) push the ball (sidelines/downfield) so that we can open up the running game, as we need to do.


There'll certainly be pains. And clearly i'm looking at more potential than proven product, but i'm really hoping for somewhere between 5&7 wins. And I think it's attainable.

I've been thinking about this win/loss thing, and here's what I know: I will be sitting there every Sunday, expecting them to win. If they don't, I'm going to be pi$$ed. The record will only mean something at two points in the season: When or if they are no longer in playoff contention, and when it's time to see where they pick in the draft. Beyond that, I don't care what the record is. I expect, want, and root for a win every week. This season will be no different.

I agree with Cal. At the very least I want to be competitive and "in" every game. I'm tired of feeling hopeless.

I have always believed if you win the trenches on both sides of the ball, you will win more than you lose. I know the game has changed a great deal but I still believe this to be true. I feel strong about the OL and we get our best defensive player back in Bryant.

Ogbah, Bryant, Shelton and Garrett is pretty damn solid and we have some depth behind them. I think Williams could have his Buffalo front 4 in place here.

4 backers down to 2 and those 2 are pretty damn good. these 2 have such excellent range.

The back end could be one of the hardest hitting defensive backfield in all of football. I don't know how well they will be able to cover, but none of these guys are shy of contact. We got some guys that will take ya head off back there and imho we traded our worst defensive player for a guy from the jets that has probowl potential if used correctly.

I like Greg Williams and he is taking over a hungry and I mean hungry but physically talented defensive unit. I see this group being a top 10 unit if we can run the football.

Last year we had 4 dbs covering 1 TE during a goaline play. There was no communication, just complication. These guys played better at the end of the year when Hue stepped in and we began to simplify our coverage.

TE, RB, OL I feel great about. I liked Njoku thought he was a physical mismatch for anyone. I like Devalve, physical mismatch. Our 3 rbs have excellent hands and big play ability. I saw a Kenny Britt last year that just finally seemed to get it. He had a 1000 yard year but he puts up 14 plus with decent QB play.

At the end of the day, I take Brock over RG3 or Josh McCown. If Kizer can play like Flacco and just use playaction and hit some deep ones, to keep teams honest, we are gonna surprise a lot of teams.

The question becomes how quickly can our OL gel. How quickly can our defense absorb Williams defensive philosophy. Can Brock or Kizer threaten enough to keep teams honest?

just a random thought but I heard Kizer blew the Browns away with the way he absorbed what Hue threw at him in their meetings and its carrying over now. Most physically gifted QB in the draft having a football IQ, could be the perfect student for Hue to teach.

I feel we will win 7 and could possibly sneak in a couple upsets but still be a year or two away from being legit. We have a couple holes and we have no real depth at most positions. Couple early injuries and its a 2 or 3 win season. We stay healthy and have a few things go our way, could be fighting for a wildcard.

BTW big part of my optimism is just the fact that I believe Horton was freaking horrible and Greg Williams is competent.

well, if our OL, DL, and Kizer end up being that good ... then, yes, we're above .500 ... and I'll be happy

Can't say about Kiser at this point. I will say if our lines pan out as I expect, we will be decent.

Hue is going to start whoever he thinks is going to give him the best shot at the trigger position. Part of me wants Kiser, but the largest part says I don't care.

Is anybody other than Kisers family going to care if Cody or Brock studs out?

j/c:

Unrealistic expectations are running rampart again.

Let me ask you guys again..............were you okay w/the complete tear down and do you acknowledge that basically started over? Were you okay w/a roster that only won one game because you knew that this process would take some time? If you answered yes to both questions, how in the world do you think we go from bottom feeders to middle of the pack in one year?

Fans do that, at least this one does (for awhile).

I can give you four reasons, I think.

1) Ran Horton off; Williams upgrades that IMO.

2) Got rid of some deadwood and some guys are healed.

3) Drafted a few studs (Hope against hope) to add to youth with a year under belts, with some vets added.

4) A one-win season! Scarred us and provides ongoing motivation.

We move the ball better and sticks, we disrupt and get some turnovers, we generate more pressure, we should notch a few. Just getting better on D should help.

Realistic? Perhaps not. But that is my dream and I am gonna stick to it.

I'm okay w/the dreams, Bard. What I am not okay w/is guys like peen and Diam who will be blaming Hue if we don't win 6-8 games.

Yes

Yes

Zeitler
Tretter
Bitonio healthy
Britt
No more RG3
Eight hundred WRs now in year 2
Highest rated kicker in the draft
Apparent depth on the O line
2nd year in Hue's offense
No more Ray Horton
D Bryant returns healthy
M Garrett best player in college football
Ogbah as a 4-3 DE in year 2; right from the start
X Cooper playing a 3T rather than a 3-4 DE
No more insanity in running a 3-4
Apparent depth on the D line
Collins on the team from TC
Kirksey extended
Legit NFL starters at CB
Significant improvement in overall team speed
Ridiculously young team

Other than that..we actually might get better...and...not one single thing I listed above could be said about last year's squad.

There is room for optimism.

... . We are much better positioned than last season.

Isn't it amazing how dumb [and incorrect} I am every year and how smart [and correct] you guys are each year?

Yes.

I can't believe an NFL team hasn't contacted you yet.

Thats a BLATANT LIE ... i thought that was beneath U ... guess i was wrong ...

Go back to your insults .... u ain't sucking me in ... but when u FLAT OUT LIE about me ... U bet I'll say something .... just to clarify MY STANCE and not some made up BS ...

I think we should win 4 ... I think with some breaks we can win 6 .... as i explained in my thread ... with LOGIC and FACTS and SOUND FOOTBALL .... does that mean we will .. HELL NO ... especially with an injury or two at a few positions .... we may only win 2 and still have a very good year IMO ... its not about wins for me this year .. SAID IT MORE THAN ONCE ... with that said ...

if we don't win at least 3 ... ya .. I'll be upset we didn't win more ... but i won't be blaming Hue unless he does what he did in the Miami game last year 3 or 4 times .... I'm no where near sold on Hue nor am i no where near as high on him as most .. i see some potential .. i also saw a crap ton of mistakes last year ... hopefully he rectifies most of those ... i think he may be able to .. he has POTENTIAL ... lets see if it pans out ...

I've also said MORE THAN ONCE ... i don't see any scenario in witch Hue should get fired this year .. NONE ... ZERO .... he should get this and at least 1 more year ... I've said it more than ONCE ... yet somehow u missed it .... Kudos to U ... ...

You have accused me of lying at least 3 or 4 times in the past month or so. That is why we are done.

The rest of your crap............I didn't even bother reading.

Last year i said 2 wins was about right with 4 as the most possible and that would take a miracle ... i said 1 was way more likely than 3 and zero was way more possible than 4 ...

All i wanted was 1 ... that was a it ... i know ... high expectations and sellfish of me ... it worked out pretty well though ...

This year i think 4 is very realistic .... very .... as i stated in the thread i started .. we could also win 3 ... i think 5 is a better possibility than 3 this year ... but not by much .... i also think 6 is a better possibility than 2 this year ....

We'll see what happens ....

j/c

It's amazing that a poster with THIS as part of his signature:

"Focus on yourself rather than others."

Can post THESE gems within 35 minutes of another:

"What I am not okay w/is guys like peen and Diam who will be blaming Hue if we don't win 6-8 games."

"Isn't it amazing how dumb [and incorrect} I am every year and how smart [and correct] you guys are each year?"

Edited to add this from another thread a few minutes ago:

"You aren't even making sense. Pit's post was all over it."

Well, at least he changed his signature now!

I said in previous posts that 3-5 wins is about right. There are too many questions with QB, WR, and the secondary although I feel the secondary will be a little better than most people think. Our O-line also will learn how to play together with the new guys we have. All in all if we can be competitive and get better as the season goes on I think it will be progress and something to build on.

Agreed. My crystal ball sees an improved 2nd half of the season compared to the 1st half...

Wins are important, however, earlier in this post several posters stated...most important, no firings/ turnover-ie keep Hue AND inferred Sashi, etc.- I don't want turnover...BUT, we did set bad record last year- W vs L, and if we do same stuff this year....NFL Network- Jim Johnson stated- what you DO with all those picks is most important- H. Walker and their bounty of picks....besides Joe Thomas we've sucked for nearly twenty years a picks- if Shelton, Erving, Peppers, Garrett, Njoku, don't show promise- more of the same crappy play- who is held responsible- there HAS to be significant improvement THIS year to keep the regime intact...JMHO. Go Browns- I think FOUR is a minimum.