DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about winning 7 games ... really? -- Terry Pluto

I'm in the boat with the ppl who say "no firings no matter what" ... last year Horton was REALLY deserving to be let go, but let's let these guys stay the course

No matter what- 0-16, 1-15, 2-14....really, for the sake of continuity....WOW. Could we change the scouting department- I like Hue, Sashi-the current crew....BUT how many years of the worst before more heads fly- 3,4,5 years- JMHO min. 4 wins or some heads fly....GO Browns!!!!

I'm not one for excuses, but in the 2016 draft, this FO didn't really have a lot of time to prepare. While thus far it doesn't look like that was a stellar draft, given the circumstances, I won't be that hard on them. On the surface, the 2017 draft looks better. So at this juncture I'm not ready to consider kicking the scouting department to the curb either.

Is any teams scouting dept really "that much" better than anothers?

I'm asking. I don't know.

Think it's too early to call on the 2016 draft ... but one thing to remember is that the 2016 draft is ongoing. Not only did it lead to an additional pick in the 2017 first round - unless my brain has it wrong - we parlayed that into another first rounder in 2018. . . . if those picks turn into gold they are part of the 2016 grade.

And despite some already proclaiming Corey Coleman a bust - I am still hoping he will be a genuine playmaker for us. Ogbah may (I believe he will) shine opposite Garrett. Shon Coleman looks likely to be our starting RT. Active in the rotation and potentially valuable contributions are likely/possible from Nassib, Schobert and DeValve. . . . . That's not even allowing for Kessler and Ricardo Louis as starters. Kessler most don't have faith and believe he's destined as a backup ... Louis is all hearsay at the moment which is why I didn't put them in with the others. . . . Really that would be a pretty decent draft for any team. For the Browns and our track record since 1999 it would be spectacular.

A lot of "ifs" in that analysis.

There's usually are, when evaluating a draft that took place 14 months ago.

Here is and has been my problem with how these rebuilds almost always take place, at least in Cleveland they do.

I have no faith in allowing talent to leave in the process of building up the team. But rebuilds are for losers IMO

Now before you get all worked up I think you build, you don't rebuild. What that means is you keep the talent you do have and you add pieces.

You can't build a competent roster by purging it every couple of years so youngsters can play that haven't earned their starters spot. Make them show they are better and build on the talent you do have. When the youngsters show they are ready then turn loose of the veteran player, and build the team.

The truth as I see it is we have turned loose of so much talent over the course of Haslim's ownership that losing was bound to happen. If history repeats itself again I am done with him and until he is replaced I would only ever expect one thing and that is losing.

When the youngsters that are on this team reach their second contracts this team will be ready to win, until then I expect more losing, and of course without a viable QB in the mix will lose anyway.

But all this talk of rebuilding made me sick a year ago because they let so many good players go in the process.

You watch what good teams do they never ever release talent until they have better talent, until we do that losing is all we will ever do.

JMHO

Yeah. We won so many games the years before Haslem bought the team.

That's not even accurate.

Heck the Ravens were the front runners for a while of letting guys walk to get comp picks and then draft a replacement.

The Steelers were known to be stingy when it came to paying guys to stay.

This idea that you have a good veteran and a younger guy waiting in the wings at every position is wonderful. But not attainable.

I won't be blaming him unless he deserves the blame.

I like the guy. I am not going to look for reasons to not like him.

When you let guys like Swartz, Ward, Benji, Gibson, etc. walk you guarantee you never get to the build side.

Hell they let Ward walk then paid Hitman more to come here and play. Its moves like these that condemn teams like the Browns to losing.

At the end of the day sure they didn't win much with these guys but you aren't winning without them and the talent drop at the holes their loss created is why we are losers now.

I expect most of you will never understand how teams build winners, and that clearly isn't the formula that has been followed here since Haslim took control of this team.

Now that's not to say he won't stick it out with the coaches and more importantly the talented players we do have.

I think you missed my point completely. But look at the talent we have let walk and look at what we replaced that talent with, it will come to you.

Letting good players walk while firing everyone isn't how you build, and build is what we should do. We have been stuck in constant re build for how long now????

More importantly does it appear to work???

If you apply the one size fits all theory then sure. The Ravens had a huge contract to deal with when they re-signed Flaco so they had to watch as some of their better players left town.

That's situation doesn't apply to the Browns, and you should know that! You do don't you?

Never said that you have a good veteran player at every position, now did I?

I said you keep good players until something better comes your way.

What the Browns have consistently done is let players walk with nothing or no one to replace them with, for what, they have plenty of money and until you start keeping the little bit of homegrown talent you do have, your bound to be losers.

Hell man can't you see we consistently create holes on both sides of the ball faster then we can fill them???

Seriously you haven't noticed that? Do you think it maybe contributes to losing.

I thought you said veteran players were a good thing.



They find a QB.

Go back to the original post, I said talented players or good players.

Your not going to have all pros at every spot, or have ideal talent at every spot, if that's the goal then your bound to fail.

I prefer we work young talent into the roster as apposed to that's all we got so they have to play.

Your coaches work with the players, they along with the FO should be constantly looking to upgrade.

Upgrade doesn't mean you toss aside every player and start again if you lose it means you fill in around these players that are good players and build. Re builds don't work unless or until you get to second contracts, you simply can't fill the holes you do have by creating more holes.

Lets assume we still have Ward and Gibson this defense looks a hell or a lot better now doesn't it? We let these players go creating holes at those positions and now 2-3 years down the road we still don't have viable replacements, do we?

Then switch sides of the ball. Mack leaves which I think that was all about just having had it with losing, and the Swartz leaves. We struggled last season at both the positions these players played, and in the case of Swartz will continue to struggle most likely.

But you manage to keep these guys and fill in around them and we aren't so bad.

The QB thing is a separate issue, and I covered that in my original post.

In the case of the Browns its the ones that got away that are the reason we lose now. I wished you and others could see that.

Yes at this point it is water under the bridge but what it does is it shows you how NOT to build a team. Learn from it...

Exactly,..ifs...and your record is what it is...we have to get impact players AND yes, good players/backups...if we go 3-13 is that enough to retain this FO which I admit, I like...but you are what you are- hope they win at least 4....GO Browns!!!!

Yes, I think you keep the FO and coaching staff no matter what our record is this year.

You absolutely have to keep the FO and coaching staff. This is only the 2nd year. I would give them at least 4 and probably 5 years to get this right. This team was completely torn down so it will take that much time to become a contending team. What we should be looking for is our players and coaches growing together and getting progressively better as time goes on; being able to play with the better teams in the league. Be competitive. That and the FO adding more talent. We have to give it time. I believe we are on the right track.

JMHO, IF this years record means nothing, then I see NO reason not to start Kizer, we have to know IF he has talent to lead the team BEFORE next years draft. I like Cody, but he has physical limits, if Brock wins, start him....but we NEED to see a big chunk of Kizer this year.....GO Browns!!!

Hell I'd keep them in place for at least 4 (total) seasons regardless just so we can break that idea that we keep firing people...

Maybe by that time we won't have to hear about all the coaches we're paying to not coach..

I don't know about starting DK. If he is not ready sit him. I would hate to see another one of our young QB's take a beating and get ruined. Cody wasn't ready and what did he get, 2 concussions? He may be one bad hit away from really considering his future as a player. DK has all the tools he needs patience and time. Give it to him.

To me if our offensive line stays healthy and either Kessler shows improvement or Brock steps up then I firmly believe we could have 7-9 wins this season. If and a big IF our WR show the improvement our WR is claiming then we could win 10 games and make the playoffs.

I think the greatly improved O-line will have huge dividends for us. My only worry is the durability of our new Center and who steps up at RT. I think Crow will have a huge year. I think our new TE is going to be a stud. I think our HBs will have some really nice receiving yards. I can see us using a 2 TE set with Crow at FB and Duke at HB with Corey and the fastest guy at the other WR spot. That would be my base set to the offense and then challenge teams to stop our run game with a fast paced short to medium pass game that Kessler could run very well.

Two 3 yard runs and a 4 yard pass is a first down every time. We don't need to be heroic to win games. We just need reliable players who are willing to chop wood all game. I think we can do this much.

We just upgraded the line/theory; start of season everyone is healthy/mostly...IF Kizer wins QB in preseason, you/ and others say sit him, he might get hurt....NONE of us are promised tomorrow- he could get hurt in practice (Bentley/Coleman), get stabbed by girlfriend (run Willie run), hurt in car accident (killed Willie Galimore,Bears)- save him- again, NO, we got to know what he's got BEFORE next season.

Are you related to Woody Hayes, I agree with your post, would like 5 yd runs....GO Browns!!!

I strongly disagree. You can't let what might happen or not lead you into bad decisions. It's far better Kizer get redshirted a year until he knows the system Hue runs backwards and forwards and he can read NFL defenses a lot better. It's extremely important for a QB to be thinking less and just knowing what to do so he makes fast decisions with the ball.

I don't think we will be in a spot in the draft next year to take a QB anyways so bring up Kizer the right way and get the most from his potential. He could end up being the best QB we have had since Kozar so let's not ruin him just to kick the tires. Now if the season goes south then maybe throw him in for the last 4-5 games of the season then. Hopefully though we don't have to deal with that kind of situation.

Lol no relation ^^

Oh I think we could have many runs over 3 yards but it was just to show if you do what is reliable and stable you can move the chains. It's hard to stop Crow 2 runs in a row so we just need Kessler to be accurate and safe with a short pass here and there and we can do well. I think Kessler can handle it. Kessler was looking good even as a rookie when we were able to run the ball so I think he will do much better this year.

I don't know either...however I have a hard time believing that any one team has a superior overall scouting dept. If one team DID have superior scouts, other teams would be poaching the 4th-10th best guys to build their own squad.

I will say though that teams with good coaching and appropriate continuity must certainly make life simpler for the scouting dept. When a scout knows what kind of player the coaches/FO wants...and that is consistent over a long span of time...that scout is either going to do a good job finding the "right" players, or that scout will be gone...a new guy will be in his place...while the coach/FO carry on.

j/c

I've seen a few posts hopeful for a 7 win season and some criticism of that. I don't believe 7 wins is really all that an unreasonable expectation. I mean, most here and predicting/hoping for a 3-5 in season PLUS looking competitive in the games we lose.

Well, you can't look competitive unless you are playing competently. Competent play can get you 7 wins. It should get you 7 wins.

I'm not saying we can't go 3-13 and still be competitive, I'm just having a hard time envisioning how that season would look like and how many of us would actually see past the 3 wins.

Let me explain the difference to you. Since the subject seems to be the Steelers and the Ravens, let's look at the difference.

They are teams with stability. When a player has been with the Steelers for three years, he's playing under the same system, he knows the system and knows his role in that system. Most players on the field in NFL games are role players, not super stars.

With the Browns, a third year player is most likely on his second or third HC and system. His role isn't second nature to him. There is no stability. It's much easier for a team with stability like the Steelers to replace one role player with another because of that stability. While he may not be a super star, he knows his job and is familiar with the system. Not here.

Because I don't want to give up on Kessler 6 starts into his career.

Reason 1. If they haven't given up on Kessler's development, or think he's a better Qb short and longterm.

Reason 2. If they think Osweiller is a better QB, short and longterm.

You don't have to give up on a guy developing. You just have to have a grasp on how far he can develop.

In a nutshell, no.

Those guys are all scouting the same players and get to know each other. They are all looking at and for the same things.

JMHO, I disagree, I don't know, but I assume the Pats DON'T share a nickles worth of info/ maybe disinformation...and they have drafted way better than we have in last twenty years....GO Browns!!!!

Do you have inside information that the rest of us don't have? Or, are you just making it up to support the Browns?

I'm throwing my hat in the ring for Cody, 5-6 wins are right there. 7 if his wide receivers help him out.

I am talking about the scouts. Most of them have worked for multiple teams, so they end up knowing each other. I am sure the actual scouting process is about the same from team to team.

Now, what is done with the information is another story. I agree that some teams are better than others in that regard.

Cleveland Browns have Terry Pluto wondering about Cody Kessler -- Terry Pluto (photos)


Updated on July 9, 2017 at 6:06 AM Posted on July 9, 2017 at 6:00 AM
BY TERRY PLUTO, THE PLAIN DEALER terrypluto2003@yahoo.com
link

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Part of me wants to believe in Cody Kessler.

I'm talking about him becoming a decent NFL quarterback who can be an Alex Smith-type game manager. Or maybe a Brian Hoyer-style quarterback, at least the healthy version of the St. Ignatius product.

There are some things to like about Kessler.

1. He was thrown into a nearly impossible situation with the Cleveland Browns last season. He opened as the No. 3 quarterback, who doesn't receive a lot of work in practice. After injuries to Robert Griffin III and Josh McCown, Kessler was the starter in week 3.

2. In his first five starts, he completed 89 of 133 passes (67 percent), good for 4 TDs and an interception.

3. In three of those five starts, he threw for 223, 244 and 336 yards. They scored at least 20 points in three of those five starts. They managed 20 or more in four of the 11 other games.

4. I have concentrated on Kessler's first five starts because they came before his first concussion. He was never quite the same after that. He had a second concussion and other injuries.

5. Kessler played in nine games (eight starts), completing 66 percent of his passes (92.3 rating), 6 TDs vs. 2 interceptions. Not bad numbers on a horrible 1-15 team.

6. Add in Kessler's maturity, work ethic and passing accuracy (valued by the coaches) and it's understandable why he will probably be the starter when veteran's camp opens.

A HIDDEN STAT

Andrea Hangst inspired me to write about Kessler when I discovered her excellent story on the Browns quarterback. She wrote it for Dawgs By Nature, one of my favorite NFL sites.

Her theme was a question: Would an improved offensive line help Kessler. The obvious answer is ... Yes. But how much?

Hangst hit on one of my biggest issues with Browns quarterbacks -- they hang on to the ball too long. According to NFL.com, Browns quarterbacks caused at least some of their own problems by indecision in the pocket.

Here's a breakdown:

1. It's a blink of an eye. The fastest quarterback getting rid of the ball was Nick Foles (2.36 seconds). The slowest was Tyrod Taylor (3.12).

2. This chart rated 50 quarterbacks. The average time was 2.60. Brock Osweiler (2.61) was 26th out of 50. So that's OK.

3. I mentioned Alex Smith and Hoyer in connection with Kessler. I didn't look up their times until I had used their names. Here we go: Smith is No. 2 (2.37) and Hoyer is No. 13 (2.49).

4. Kessler has mentioned Drew Brees as one of his role models. The New Orleans quarterback was No. 4 (2.43).

5. McCown ranked No. 42 (2.80).

6. Griffin ranked No. 44 (2.84).

7. Kessler was No. 49 (2.89), only ahead of Taylor.

SO WHAT?

1. The Browns had three quarterbacks in the bottom eight. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

2. McCown and Griffin are notorious for hanging on to the ball too long. They want to give their receivers time to get open. Griffin also likes to run around and make plays with his legs.

3. But what about Kessler? I have checked several pre-draft scouting reports, none talked about hanging onto the ball too long. Arm strength was an issue. So was being only 6-foot-1. Small with an average arm at best seemed to be the consensus.

4. But Kessler simply kept the ball too long. It's part of the reason he suffered two concussions. He was knocked out of another game with an injury. So Kessler failed to finish three of eight starts. Durability is a major concern.

5. According to Profootballfocus.com, Kessler threw 47 percent of his passes "under pressure." That was the most in the NFL. Next were Andrew Luck and Jared Goff, both at 44 percent.

6. At times, it seemed the speed of the game overwhelmed Kessler. Some of that can change in his second year as he's becoming more accustomed to the fact that even the biggest defensive linemen can usually run faster than you originally think.

7. But I also believe Kessler and all the quarterbacks were hurt by the receivers. They didn't get open quickly. None of the QBs developed chemistry with any receiver/tight end, partly because there were so many QB injuries.

8. To be an effective quarterback with his size and limited arm strength, he has to get rid of the ball fast. Receivers have to run short, crisp patterns. The offense has to look precise. That rarely happened in 2016.

9. I wish the Browns had done more than replace receiver Terrelle Pryor with Kenny Britt. David Njoku could make an impact at tight end, but the first-rounder is a rookie. Big time, athletic receivers can help even a so-so quarterback look effective.

10. The coaching staff will have to use the running backs more often in the passing game. Duke Johnson and Isaiah Crowell combined for 93 catches in 2016. That's a lot. But I believe they can do even more.

BOTTOM LINE?

1. When it comes to Kessler, I have significant doubts. In minicamps, he had too many passes batted down at the line of scrimmage. He seldom completed deep balls. He was accurate on short throws.

2. He is an inexperienced quarterback who will be throwing to mostly inexperienced receivers. He should have more time, thanks to a revamped offensive line.

3. Kessler stays away from turnovers. He will know the offense well. He does have poise and leadership ability. It's possible Hue Jackson can turn him into a respectable quarterback. I just wish I saw more to be excited about in the minicamps.

4. That said, real football begins in late July when the players return and actually wear pads. For young quarterbacks, preseason games matter a lot because it's the first time they can really be tackled. So I'm open to seeing more of Kessler.

5. I know fans want to talk about the other quarterbacks. We will do that in the next few weeks. This is the dead zone for NFL news, so I concentrated on Kessler.

6. I'm higher on Osweiler than many in the media and fans, mostly because of his experience and his success in Denver.

7. I'm not as enamored with Kizer as some. Physically, he is an NFL quarterback. But he has so much to learn. He seldom took snaps under center or worked out of a huddle until joining the Browns.

8. We can talk Browns, Cavs, Indians, quarterbacks and everything else when I come to Mayfield Library. My talk is Monday at 7 p.m. It's free! You can register here.

That was Pluto's best article in awhile. He actually did his research on this one. There was very good information w/in the article.

Cody gets a lot of love on this board for some reason. Can't really put my finger on it. Must be the stat angle? He didn't have many interceptions and his completion percentage was good.

To me, he is like watching paint dry. I have no confidence in him "leading" us to victories or in helping other parts of our offense improve.

The other thing that was pointed out in the article that is troubling is what the Browns have done w/their receivers. They lost Pryor, Hawkins, and Barnidge. I'm not positive, but weren't all 3 guys in the top 3 or 4 in terms of catches w/the Browns last year? They brought in Britt who had a good year last year, but has been a career-long underachiever. Njoku is talented, but he drops a lot of passes and is as raw as can be.

I think the Browns are really going to struggle to throw the football successfully. That, in turn, will make it harder to run the football. I think our offense is going to be painful to watch this year. I also think Hue is going to get the blame for the lack of talent/experience on that side of the ball.

j/c

Very good article by Pluto. Two things stood out to me.

#1 - Kessler did not have a history of holding on to the ball "too long" in college. All three Browns QBs were awful in the held ball stat. Why was that? I know that RG3 and McCown had a penchant for that...but all 3 of them on the same team in the same year? Can you say wide receiver issues in a brand new offense?

#2 - Pluto states that Kessler was injured while holding the ball too long. Against the Squeelers he was cheap-shoted to the head while being taken down by another Squeeler;

In the Bengal game he was hit in the head on a shovel pass...that's a bang-bang play;

He hurt his shoulder in the NE game because Alvin Bailey let Hightower run straight to Kessler untouched from the snap.

Durability is certainly an issue...but the three plays where he was hurt "the most" were not normal plays and were not a result of his holding the ball too long.

For Cody he probably held on to the ball too long because the game was too fast for him. RG111 and JM. had a habit of doing it. We have the makings of a good running game with an improved O-line and the RB's that we have but if we can't stretch the field with our QB and our WR's are not that good like it appears right now I agree with Vers our O will not be very good. Somebody in our WR corps has to step up. More like 2 or 3 have to step up. Let's hope they do.