DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum A chicken or egg question

I figured since the one topic of zone blocking got such a good response a month ago..I'll throw this out.....and its simple in question,but made more complex to answer....

Does the talent make the scheme work or does the scheme make the talent reach full potential?

When I coached hockey my philosophy was you had to have a system that fit the type of players you have. That system might change year from year depending on what I had. If you have big, slow players you can't have a system that relies on speed and vice versa. Now having said that, I never could go out and buy, draft or trade for any of my players so the NFL is a different animal!

it's a good question, but I think it's a simple answer.... it's a symbiotic relationship and a case of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

One does not or cannot make the other because the one is mostly worthless without the other.

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Does the talent make the scheme work or does the scheme make the talent reach full potential?

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The later.

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it's a symbiotic relationship and a case of the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

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The whole can never be greater than the sum of it's parts, but parts can be worth different amounts.

For example: Ross Verba=1
Best LT= 15

The whole for the Browns offensive line during the Ross Verba era would be much less than the whole for the Best LT offensive line, unless of course, one of the other parts of the line were greater than that of the Best LT's line.


Kinda like the old saying...... I never had a 10, but I did have 5 2's

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The whole can never be greater than the sum of it's parts, but parts can be worth different amounts.

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So, you're saying that that 5 tens together is not greater than 5 tens?

I always thought that professional teams mostly had a scheme and were trying to draft and pick up players that would be good within that scheme. Problems occur when something like what happened to LeCharles Bentley comes along.

Very solid guy at Center.. Probowler in fact. Gets injured on the first play of the first day in camp and Boom, we lose him for the year. We never really recovered from that loss until the middle of the season because as good as Fraley was, he didn't get time to develop with the team.

So Fraley was supposed to be a stop gap... But darned if he wasn't pretty good once he found himself within the system. He wasn't bad at all.

So, in that case, we went out and got the best replacement we could for Bentley... tell you true, if we thought that Fraley was the best, we never would have paid for Bentley.. That wouldn't have made sense. We'd have just traded for Fraley and been done with it.

To answer your question, I think you find players to fit your plan,,, Failing that, you modify your scheme to fit the players you do have.

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or does the scheme make the talent reach full potential?

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I'll start with the second option... a good scheme can make the talent reach full potential, but if that talent isn't very good, the team can still only be as good as the talent plus a small percentage for being in a good scheme..

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Does the talent make the scheme work

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Back to the first..... Great talent will make plays regardless of the scheme.. a bad scheme may not MAXIMIZE the talent, but talented players will make plays, even in a system which doesn't really fit them...

Championships happen when the two meet. But if I had to decide between them, I'd take great talent and a mediocre scheme over a great scheme and mediocre talent any day of the week... and I'd win.

Good question. Really.

And though I thought I had an answer right away, after reading the posts above I'm not as certain as I was initially.

Overall I guess I'd have to agree with DC since he said it better than I could have and with more insight.



In so far as the title of this thread...it's the chicken.

Superior talent enhances scheme. Scheme enhances inferior talent.

In a perfect world you start off building a team with the schemes you want to run in mind, and get the best talent to run those schemes. The Browns where fortunate in this regard in a weird way, becuase when Opie took over we were so talent depraved that it was okay to start from scratch and begin again. In most cases however, there is already talent in place that fits certain schemes better than others. Imo at that point you cater your schemes short term around what you have, but look to build what your wanting to do long term with the draft to phase into the new system.

I agree that great players can play in any system, but the problem with that strategy is your only going to have so many great players on ANY team.......the rest are made up of good players/mediocre players that can be great in the right scheme. You need talent to run anything, but most of your roster is going to be made up of guys that have the chance to excell in your scheme.............whereas they wouldn't be so hot in another scheme.

Well DC,I certainly hope that we have more potential talent than some here seem to think we have. Because from everything I've gathered,Chud's scheme is pretty complex.

And you have to have "enough talent" to "execute your scheme". And I would feel safe to say,that to do that in any productive manner,you will need enough talent to make a complicated scheme work.

So hopefully we have descent talent. Which has been a point of contention around here. Because if we don't,Chud will fall on his face implementing a complex scheme with inferior talent.

I say the talent must fit the scheme to a great degree. You can refine and expand your scheme as talent is brought in and your current talent develops,but if your scheme is too complicated,complex and demanding for the talent you have? You're doomed to failure IMO. Much like a tailer made suits. They're designed to fit the one's wearing them. Alterations can be made as the person wearing it dictates. (I know how much you love analogy's)

So the scheme must work with the talent you have. Expand the scheme as you expand your talent. They go hand in hand from my way of thinking.

No, I'm saying that the sum of the parts is the same as the whole, not greater, not lesser.

If you have 5 tens, the whole would be the sum of the parts, or 50.

I'll make my answer even simpler!

"Jenny, I don't know if Lt. Dan is right or momma, I don't know if we all have a destiny or if we're just floatin around accidental like on a breeze."

"but I think, I think maybe both is happening at the same time."

It works both way...

Put a guy like Trotter outside of Philly and he did horrible...

Put a guy like Garcia in a system that fits him and he appears to be a pro-bowler.

Put a guy with amazing talent like Drew Brees with a cast of receivers no one knows, and he makes the scheme work.

The strength of the pack is the wolf.
The strength of the wolf is the pack.