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Hue Jackson - C - Browns

The Cleveland Plain Dealer does not expect Browns coach Hue Jackson to be on a short leash this season.

Jackson's 1-15 first season in Cleveland was a disaster, but that was always the plan. Thus far, the Browns have been extremely patient as they execute a top-to-bottom rebuild. They understand what Jackson is dealing with. The odds are extremely high that no matter what happens this year, Jackson will be back in 2018.

Source: Cleveland Plain Dealer Jul 11 - 2:19 PM

Sounds familiar ... where have i heard this before ,,,, hmmmm ...

Nope...not gonna happen...the expectations of the fans on a message board will not be met and Hue will get canned for the disappointment and we will start over...again. And we will stink until we are "ready". Whatever that means. We will draft BPA. Whatever that means. We will finally find our FQB. Whatever that means. I think that covers it?

/purple

Fixed it for you.

The record reflects the need for the team to be rebuilt from the ground up. Not a band aid fix to get us to 5 or 6 wins and to repeat what was done before that, and before that and before that. . . . . the current tore it all the way down and that was needed because of prior FO's.

Fixed it for both of you. By virtue of its nature, when referring to "the Browns historically poor record" you're referring to all of them.

The fans on a message board? Really?

Don't you mean a lack of patience by Haslam?

The people posting on this message board aren't who keeps firing coaching staffs and FO's. It's the owner. It's not The Clevleand Plain Dealer either.

I don't mind people tossing blame around as long as it lands where it should.

Fans and media do have power though, lol


I remember in NYC, one of the hosts of Sports Radio here (Craig Carton who co-hosts with Boomer Esiason) standing outside the Jets Offices with a megaphone yelling, "We want Brett!" with a bunch of other people. And low and behold, they got Brett.


And of course, we can all blame the homeless man for the drafting of Johnny Football...........

Money is what has the power and yes, people wield the money. But anyone who feels as though the posters on this message board impact those decisions has to be whacked! lol

Yes we are a passionate few, but in the big picture, we are the few. Together we don't hold enough financial impact to influence Haslam's decisions.

Hue should be back in 2018. He should be back in '19 and '20 too because that is how long it will take for this team to be yearly contenders after the complete tear down that we've had. Unless our Browns only win 1-3 games a year for the next 3 or 4 years and show no progress Hue and this FO should be given 5 years. JMO

Taken as a whole, I am of the opinion that it is difficult to find fault with the players brought in through the draft (2) and FA. Should no progress be shown on the field, you would have to lay fault with the coaching staff. Having said that, I am optimistic that we will indeed see significant progress to being able to compete at the upper level...

Beyond bizarre!

Man, sometimes the posters on this board slay me. We have the above which is crazy. Some of these guys haven't even played yet, but we already know there was nothing wrong w/choosing them? LOL

Then, we have one poster who says the FO should get 80% of the blame while another says 100% of the blame goes to the previous FO. And to cap it off, we have one guy failing miserably while using weak sarcasm in a lame attempt to blame posters on a message board for the Brown's failures.

LOL.............I need GM to post that song "Stuck in the Middle w/You" song again.

I don't agree with 19 and 20. We sould see steady progress. If we don't start winning a little this year and more next year, Hue needs to hit the road. We have some talent on this team. I know we have some around here who think coaches should never get fired.

Sorry, someone has to say it.

You missed the /purple at the end of my previous post.

And once again...we are in agreement.

You really should either follow or change your signature. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.

I agree with a tighter time frame. Last year sucked painfully. I was patient with some of it, but some of it was just crappy play.

I hope to see, then, two years of improvement in the rooks who played, better rookie performance out of this class (I include Kizer, who should play some IMO), and a stronger defense. Hope we win some tossup games.

I think much of this season is out of the FO's hands as we load this squad for this season.
Pointing fingers and laying blame for past failures hasn't helped much or we would be golden. We can learn from mistakes, hopefully avoid them. But do say this group must fail horribly because others did is wrong IMO.

Only just barely.
As a roster goes, we've just begun to add talent and generally still pretty much suck.

The fact that we were going to be terrible last year was a foregone conclusion.

The fact that we'll be improved, but still be pretty darn bad this year is also a foregone conclusion - nobody should realistically be expecting otherwise unless they are factoring in all sorts of maybe's, could be's, and mights. Short of hitting a perfect storm scenario of absolutely everything we've done the past year paying off in spades 10x over, we will be bad. Improved, but bad.

2018 -- this is the year folks should begin to have some real expectations, but not before then.

I agree on not being certain about '20, but short of a complete implosion in '18, this group should definitely see the '19 season together.

I am not putting a number on wins. I just think there needs to be progression. Going from 1 win last year to 2 this year, to 3 the following isn't going to cut it.

I have said I think we can win 6-7 games this year. We probably won't because as you mentioned, everything isn't going to go perfectly. It never does. Players are going to drop passes, fumble the ball, and miss tackles and kicks. Coaches aren't machines. They are going to make some stupid decisions.
If everything went perfectly, I might look for more wins

What else is new?

I'm not sure you can base it on wins and loses. I mean, sure at the end of the day, that is the stat everyone looks at and discusses. But, we were in a lot of those games for example last year. We didn't take 15 blow-out loses.

It's something to factor in. No victories in losing, but sometimes it's not as bad when you put thought into it. Few of those games last year I felt like, potentially, a play here or there and that was a W instead of a L.

I do agree with Purp, 2018 is going to be a huge year. Rookies will have had experience, hopefully we'll have the same defensive sceheme (as Hue isn't going anywhere), and they'll either sink or swim because of it.

No disagreement that wins and losses at this point isn't the only measure. It's just a small part. I have said many times that Hue shouldn't be judged on the win/loss record this year. The earliest wins should come in to play is next year around the bye week, and even then you would be best to ride it out so there is no question.

I don't see Hue being canned this year unless he does something stupid, like not being there for a 1PM kick because he thought the game was at 4PM.

I don't know if I fully subscribe to the "just barely" comment in terms of talent but I agree we still have a looooong way to go to until we have a consistently winning team that will change the national perception of ineptness and laughability. The issue to me is that we don't have talent at CRITICAL positions, namely QB, WR, the secondary, and a bevy of consistent pass rushers. These areas are more important than other spots. However,

Joe Thomas is talented
Joel Bitonio is talented
Kevin Zietler is talented
Isaiah Crowell is talented
Christian Kirksey is talented
Danny Shelton is talented
Joe Haden is talented
Jamie Collins is talented
Emmanuel Ogbah is talented

I'm assuming Myles Garrett is talented but I'm not grouping him in with the above players....he hasn't even played a snap. But my point is there is some real, legitimate talent on this team, and yes, we can debate, since talent is not really defined and comes in various levels, but it's not like we are starved of it. There are some proven players on this team. Again, just not at the very KEY and INSTRUMENTAL positions that are needed to be an effective football team.

That said, I do think this team will struggle again because of the uncertainly of recently drafted talent, no QB, youth, etc.

I'm hoping for 7-9 also. That would be very exciting to me. Less than that, and I'll still be okay.

It's just depressing going into the season planning on winning 3 or 4 games. Our team shouldn't think that way, and so I don't want to think that way.


But I also agree with the poster below that overriding wins and losses is simply how the team looks. If we look compettive and have some potential, things could get better.



I know I wanted Pettine fired because he stuck by O'Neil. That IMO was his downfall. O'Neil sucked and Pettine decided to get more involved with offense, and Jim O'Neil's defense was nowhere. At some point, Pettine also lost the team.

Hue seems to have the guys support and they want to play hard for him. I'm happy with the switch to Gregg Williams, because, for our personnel, I think he's a much better candidate than Ray Horton was (whom I was excited for, but realized quickly, I was wrong about. It simply wasn't the right team for him)


But yeah, with our young talent, I think we'll win something like 5 games. We were in a lot of them last year to a degree. Especially in the beginning. So if we can do what we did in the first place, and our defense/O-Line can be the strengths that I'd like them to be, hopefully the QB play will deliver.

5-7 games would make me at least feel good. That and the Houston Texans winning 0 games

j/c:

I'm posting this to perpetuate the "Jimmy Haslem is Cheap" narrative.


What does $181 million buy? Browns top NFL in offseason guaranteed money

The Cleveland Browns haven't just talked about improving their team since January.

They've put their money where their mouth is.

When it comes to cash spending in the offseason and through the 2017 season, no NFL team has or will match the Browns' lavish spending, and only one will hand out more cash.

Yet the Browns still have more than $50 million in salary-cap space, which is an interesting thing. A losing team that doesn't use its cap space is "cheap," but a building team that reserves cash space is deftly handling its finances.

Results on the field finalize the perception, but there is no questioning the Browns were willing to spend to improve from January through today.

According to the sports salary site spotrac.com, the Browns rank second in the league in cash commitments for 2017 -- with $205.6 million spent or set to be spent.

Spotrac also reports that when it comes to guaranteed money given out this offseason, no team was more active than the Browns, whose total of $181 million in guarantees is $45 million more than the Dolphins.

The Browns committed to $76.2 million via contract extensions (to LB Christian Kirksey, G Joel Bitonio, P Britton Colquitt, LS Charley Hughlett and LB Jamie Collins, who technically had not reached free agency when he re-signed), $44.5 million to draft picks and $60.58 million to free agents, according to Spotrac.

That's a hefty financial commitment.

The 10 highest cash payments to Browns players this season will go to:

DE Myles Garrett, $20.7 million

G Kevin Zeitler, $18 million

QB Brock Osweiler, $16 million

LB Collins, $15.85 million

G Bitonio, $11.66 million

LT Joe Thomas, $11.5 million

CB Joe Haden, $11.2 million

WR Kenny Britt, $10.5 million

LB Kirksey, $9.79 million

C JC Tretter, $6.6 million

Eight of the 10 players were drafted, acquired in free agency or acquired in a trade by current management. Only Thomas and Haden had contracts from previous regimes.

How can a team spend so freely yet still have so much salary-cap room? In NFL accounting, signing bonuses are prorated over the life of the contact for salary-cap purposes. So Zeitler's $12 million signing bonus is prorated over five years and counts $2.4 million under the cap.

However, the $12 million in cash is spent immediately, so that's money out of pocket, as is Zeitler's $6 million salary for 2017. The Browns will pay Garrett $20.7 million in cash in 2017, but his salary-cap cost is $5.5 million due to prorated bonuses.

The Browns' willingness to commit $205 million in cash speaks to using money for a building team.

Their ability to keep salary cap room speaks to future ability to add talent, with a hefty chunk of it no doubt earmarked to that elusive franchise quarterback.

http://www.espn.com/blog/cleveland-brown...uaranteed-money

Are you a Game of Thrones fan? If so, mac may be a House Greyjoy fan. Their saying is : What is already dead may never die.

That's a solid list. I think I would say Haden 'was' talented and it remains to be seen if a healthy Haden is still talented. I don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about that.

just my opinion but here is the list of players who I believe will be considered talented by the middle-end of the season .... and by that I mean a player who would start for 35% or more of the teams in the NFL. Say a PFF rating of 68-70 or more.... and the guys on this list I think have a chance to be to 30% are Coleman and Garrett and Njoku.

J Tretter - Center
Duke Johnson - RB
Kenny Britt - WR
Corey Coleman - WR
Njoku - TE
Garrett - DE
Brantley - DT
Bryant - DT
Peppers - S

I'd love to have Kessler on this list - but while I am pulling for the guy I don't think you can say I believe it just yet. Need to see some actual football to make that leap of faith.

The problem is that none of this is about the front office

There's basically no penalty.

So let's not pretend this is a main reason we're spending money.

I've actually made the argument that Haslem has spent tons of money in the past but that they were simply bad decisions. For example, here is something I posted in August 2016 debating why money wasn't the issue for trading Lee, but more about the complete rebuild (which only now certain people realize) but the contracts below illustrate how much money Haslem spent since buying the Browns.



Also, here was an article I posted discussing/arguing the value of free agency. The graph shows the Browns are truly an "above average" spender from 2013-2015. The results, however were subpar.



https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ion#Post1234901

I'm happy to find other examples that I've posted but Haslem has NOT been cheap since buying the Browns. Perhaps stupid re: spending, but not cheap.

So, as I opened my response with your quote, I'll end with it as it relates to the graph about "above average spending"



I believe I provided why. However, in 2016, team spending took a huge dip, which I contend was as a result of a complete rebuild. Now, in 2017, look how much the team spent, particularly in FA (which can also be debated on how smart that was)

So in 4 of 5 years, the Browns spent significantly.

That wasn't your argument....you've ALWAYS said Haslem has been cheap, no matter where money was to be spent. I don't necessarily disagree with your point about the heavy amount of money placed in FA. But Haslem has spent $$$.

Plus, is that Haslem's fault or the fault of the front offices he's managed? Many have stayed. Many have gone. Organizationally speaking, there have been players who left that I wanted to stay. No doubt about it. But you toggle between solely blaming Sashi on this and then Haslem. Who is it?

You could even make a case for each and every coaching failure we've had too, making it a destination where only money really would play a part in signing someone. A destination where loses is the only thing guaranteed and when you're a part of that, competitive and etc - you probably wouldn't mind "not being a part of it."

You gave a whopping nine names out of the 80 we currently have on the roster, and more than half are linemen.

Like I said - yes, we have talent, but just barely. And it doesn't run deep.
We completely lack real bonafide talent at some positions, or at best it is unproven, and we have little to no depth at the places we do have talent - except on the lines.

Sometimes reality bites but that doesn't change it.

I gave a "whopping nine names" because I think it's relevant when talking about your roster...your starters, not 80 guys we have on a roster on July 13th when that gets slashed to 53 come September. I have no idea why you decided to use that number, but ok.

Even with the season-long roster, to assume the good teams have talent top-to-bottom is not true. Some do, sure. But I don't think it's necessarily fair to assume that's the case.

9 of our starters (out of 22) isn't "barely talent" in my opinion. Again, we need more talent and nine isn't enough, particularly at the spots I mentioned, but I disagree with what I quoted above from you.

C'mon Purp...there's 90 on the roster now...not 80.

I wouldn't put Haden in there as I think those (9) guys are special and Haden is not. It is certainly a short list of special.

My optimism though comes from the next tier of guys. They are young and appear to fit the mold of what the FO is trying to build. Better athletes...better speed...guys who appear to love football...etc. We have a guy who "might" be a FQB.

But all we have with most of them is potential. If we had a bonafide FQB, we could maybe get away with a short list of special and and some young potential...but we don't...so there's that.

I think that is a good point.

Since you're referencing my list, I clearly disagree with this statement . But this is predicated on Haden being healthy. And based on that premise, I should be fair and add Des Bryant who is also talented yet injured often--and I question his tenure on this team.

So that makes a "whopping ten", Prp! BOOM!!!!

As we can see, people are still in denial.

As we can see, sometimes humor flies right over some people's head.

I really wasn't referring to you, but okay.