Take your pick of news source - NYTimes, BBC, Fox.
Just my opinion: I think this is a very telling moment for Trump .... other than Trump's ego and arrogance, I don't believe I have seen anything that truly indicates he colluded with the Russians. Errors in judgement and mis-reporting of events and meetings ... sure. But that isn't a slam dunk that there was collusion - it's equally plausible it simply shows incompetence. Incompetence is no defense of the law - so some legal ramifications may result. . . and in my opinion the legal axe to fall is more likely to be on financial transgressions than political collusion with a foreign power. Manafort, Flynn, Kushner all likely fall guys if I am correct.
With that said - All the intelligence agencies who took a role in actively investigating the election have determined Russia was responsible for both hacking and then propagating false news in an effort to help Trump get elected. . . The GOP lead Congress believes them and have put forward these measures in response.
What is Trump going to do? If he wants to call the intelligence agencies incompetent, if he decides to veto these sanctions that a GOP run Congress has put forward .... it will be a pretty damning indictment of Trump - who kept saying Russia was a fake news story, who never even wanted to ask about the election interference .. and yet every week the facts reveal closer and closer ties between the campaign players and Russia. When the FBI, CIA, NSA, Congress all say and believe one thing and Trump decides to go in a different direction it would be the single biggest red flag to me.
Last edited by mgh888; 07/23/1708:48 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Everyone wants to punish Russia even though the President thinks he can negotiate an end to many of our problems with Russia and gain them as a future ally in the world. So you throw in that his hands are tied in those negotiations and his ability to make peace is greatly limited.
This can't wait to see if he is successful in negotiations with Russia, we tie his hands now.
Ok, I think I get it. We do not want peace with Russia, we do not want to even try for better relations.
I think when Russia interferes with our election, the answer isn't to kiss there butt and do nothing. You seem to feel that they should be able to do it and in turn we kiss their butt.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Everyone wants to punish Russia even though the President thinks he can negotiate an end to many of our problems with Russia and gain them as a future ally in the world.
Well- based on his track record to date, we should hold serious doubts that he thinks at all.
Could I get the serious version of you? I've got a legitimate question.
How do you feel about Crimea?
Yes, Crimea. And buzzing our ships in the Black Sea, and threatening her neighbors, and interfering in elections.
Your kind wants no changes to these situations. You don't even want to allow Trump to try. So we tie Trumps hands and level sanctions on our ENEMY Russia.
Good job folks, maybe it will even lead to war in the future.
Could I get the serious version of you? I've got a legitimate question.
How do you feel about Crimea?
Yes, Crimea. And buzzing our ships in the Black Sea, and threatening her neighbors, and interfering in elections.
Your kind wants no changes to these situations. You don't even want to allow Trump to try. So we tie Trumps hands and level sanctions on our ENEMY Russia.
Good job folks, maybe it will even lead to war in the future.
Stupid is as Stupid does.
What did you think of Obama's "Reset" with Russia?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
What did you think of Obama's "Reset" with Russia?
It was a complete and absolute failure from the start.
Joe Biden said Russia and the United States should press the “reset button on their relationship.” A month later, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton met in Geneva, where Clinton gave her counterpart a symbolic button they were to press together. Printed on the button was the word “reset” in both English and Russian. Unfortunately, the Russian version was misspelled, and instead of “reset” (perezagruzka) it said “overload” (peregruzka). Lavrov explained the mistake to his embarrassed colleague but still agreed to press it, joking that he would “try to prevent system overload in Russian-U.S. relations.”
The Freudian slip was more symbolic than the trivial act of pressing the button. The United States and Russia still did not understand each other, did not speak the same language (literally and figuratively), and despite both sides mouthing that bygones were bygones, absolutely nothing had changed. Although the Obama administration was ready to renounce the role of global policeman and other excesses of the Bush era, it still harbored familiar old American prejudices against Russia. Medvedev, for his part, was never powerful enough to oversee a reset. And although Putin wanted a new relationship with the West, it was not the one Obama had in mind.
Obama first came to Moscow in July 2009. The biggest item on the agenda was a new agreement on the reduction of nuclear weapons, which was meant to symbolize the era of new relations. Obama met with Medvedev at the Kremlin, while Putin received him at Novo-Ogaryovo, where a sumptuous breakfast with caviar was laid out. Trying to make conversation, Obama began by asking rhetorically, “How did we get into this mess [in U.S.-Russian relations]?” In response, Putin gave him an hourlong lecture as to how precisely it had happened. Obama listened without interrupting.
As it happens, Obama felt no personal warmth for either Putin or Medvedev, despite all Medvedev’s attempts to be friends with his U.S. counterpart, as Putin and Bush had once been for a time. The White House’s open disdain for the new Russian leader did not help: Senior U.S. officials mocked Medvedev’s gadget mania in front of reporters, saying, “Maybe we won’t sign a deal. Maybe we’ll just send him a text message.”
Medvedev did desperately want to sign the nuclear arms deals, but diplomats on both sides could not settle the details. In the end, an agreement was finally signed, but it was an empty shell — more an opportunity for a photo shoot in front of Prague Castle in the Czech capital, where the signing took place, than a real arms control document. Russia wanted to bind the new agreement to a U.S. commitment not to deploy a missile defense shield in Europe. The Americans flatly refused. As a result, Moscow added and unilaterally signed an addendum to its side of the bargain, reserving the right to withdraw from the treaty if Washington went ahead with installing a shield in Europe.
Haha, you could have just told me you were going to copy and paste from the first Google result. It would have saved us a bunch of time.
Now, if you ask me, I think you're bearing a double standard here. You're criticizing Obama's attempt to establish rapprochement with Russia as a failure from the start, but you are wholeheartedly behind whatever the heck Trump is trying to do right now, even though the majority of both Liberals AND Conservatives are disturbed about the whole Russia situation.
Look, I think that Obama's reset attempt was dumb, and that he mishandled the relationship with Russia. It culminated at its worst point with the whole "red-line" Syrian scandal. That was a very bad look.
I think he got better after that point and learned, as has been proven time and time again, that Putin is a sociopathically opportunistic leader, who is not out there to build relations, but to take advantage at every possible turn he can, and to push his boundaries as far as everyone will let him. We're talking about the same guy who brought his German shepherd out to a meeting with Angela Merkel because he knew that she had a big phobia of dogs.
Why Trump or any of his supporters would think that letting Putin off the hook, or trying to take the Chamberlain appeasement route is a good idea, is, to me, dillusional at best.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Why Trump or any of his supporters would think that letting Putin off the hook, or trying to take the Chamberlain appeasement route is a good idea, is, to me, dillusional at best.
Never said to let Putin off the hook. I did say why can't sanctions wait until after Trump gives negotiations a shot.
Your reading comprehension is what is dillusional, at best.
I think I've made clear why negotiations with Russia, especially at this time, is not appropriate. All Putin has shown to understand to this point in his career dynasty, is immense, shrewd leverage.
After all, "He's one cold dude" - George W. Bush.
Here's an interesting article to show another perspective:
Quite honestly, the previous two administrations came in with the idea that they were going to build a positive relationship with Putin. Both ended up going the opposite way.
I think it was in that article that I posted, but Bush even talked about how Putin valued "winning" more than working together.
I mean, look how the dude treats his own people.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
I can understand your not wanting to allow Trump to negotiate with Russia as you fear he might be successful and you will have nothing to cry about.
Successful negotiating? All Russia wants to negotiate is... no new sanctions for election meddling and to drop all the old sanctions for killing thousands and taking Crimea form the Ukraine.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
I can understand your not wanting to allow Trump to negotiate with Russia as you fear he might be successful and you will have nothing to cry about.
Successful negotiating? All Russia wants to negotiate is... no new sanctions for election meddling and to drop all the old sanctions for killing thousands and taking Crimea form the Ukraine.
I can understand your not wanting to allow Trump to negotiate with Russia as you fear he might be successful and you will have nothing to cry about.
Successful negotiating? All Russia wants to negotiate is... no new sanctions for election meddling and to drop all the old sanctions for killing thousands and taking Crimea form the Ukraine.
Every negotiation has a starting point.
That's fine. And it starts with them admitting that they meddled in our elections, and a complete pull out from Crimea.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
You should next tie the hands of the Browns coaching staff!
Don't even let them try to win! Think of the Draft choices!
Haha. I didn't realize the Browns had to negotiate with other teams to try and win...I thought they just had to get better players, exploit the weaknesses of the other team, outmaneuver them and impose their will...see what I did there?
What do you honestly see us negotiating with Russia right now? I mentioned this before, but I think Obama was abysmal at dealing with Russia for the majority of his time in office. I do think at the end, given the situation in Ukraine, the imposition of sanctions, resulting capital flight, and locking arms with Europe was a good move on his part to exact leverage. It put Putin under a lot of pressure...certainly a lot of pressure that Putin would never admit to. Gee, I bet he was under so much pressure that he wanted to find a way to interfere with our policy-making...
Leave the sanctions on the table, and stand up to him (as Bush eluded). He only understands strength and leverage. He does not understand the methodology of appeasement. I ask again, what value do you see in us approaching Russia to negotiate right now?
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
I can understand your not wanting to allow Trump to negotiate with Russia as you fear he might be successful and you will have nothing to cry about.
Successful negotiating? All Russia wants to negotiate is... no new sanctions for election meddling and to drop all the old sanctions for killing thousands and taking Crimea form the Ukraine.
Every negotiation has a starting point.
That's fine. And it starts with them admitting that they meddled in our elections, and a complete pull out from Crimea.
I like your style.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
I can understand your not wanting to allow Trump to negotiate with Russia as you fear he might be successful and you will have nothing to cry about.
Successful negotiating? All Russia wants to negotiate is... no new sanctions for election meddling and to drop all the old sanctions for killing thousands and taking Crimea form the Ukraine.
Every negotiation has a starting point.
That's fine. And it starts with them admitting that they meddled in our elections, and a complete pull out from Crimea.
And that can be our starting point.. now negotiate.
I ask again, what value do you see in us approaching Russia to negotiate right now?
It could be in our best interests being our planes are flying 10 feet apart in Syria and that army over the next hill be they.
But noooooo, lets not even let him try. Lets not let him say to Putty that he can stop these sanctions if you give me some good stuff to take home to Murica like Assad is outta there or you will be telling Iran to go home and butt out.
Who wants to be Putin? Other than 40, since he's a fan boy.
We can try to simulate a negotiation.
What's sad is that this will probably be better than anything trump tries to pull in real life.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Who wants to be Putin? Other than 40, since he's a fan boy.
We can try to simulate a negotiation.
What's sad is that this will probably be better than anything trump tries to pull in real life.
I would love to play but I lack the requisite knowledge of the facts behind Crimea to play Putin in a negotiation..
That's 100% of this board bro. None of us are working for the UN or anything like that.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Can I be Trump, I like him almost as much a Uncle Putty.
No. All you'll do is give him back the buildings here in the us, support him taking over Ukraine and let him build a base in the US.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Can I be Trump, I like him almost as much a Uncle Putty.
No. All you'll do is give him back the buildings here in the us, support him taking over Ukraine and let him build a base in the US.
You left out the part where they join forces to take over the middle east, the Asian peninsula, and most of North Africa... and call their new lands, Trumpin.
I ask again, what value do you see in us approaching Russia to negotiate right now?
It could be in our best interests being our planes are flying 10 feet apart in Syria and that army over the next hill be they.
But noooooo, lets not even let him try. Lets not let him say to Putty that he can stop these sanctions if you give me some good stuff to take home to Murica like Assad is outta there or you will be telling Iran to go home and butt out.
noooooooo
Military intelligence sharing doesn't involve negotiations.
Interesting point on Syria...a wholly impractical point, but interesting nonetheless.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
Right.... wait until after negotiations with Russia fail then stick it to Putin. 
