DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Did savage Know What RAC Didn't?

This is something that crossed my mind over a month ago. And the more I think about it,the more sense it makes. (or maybe I've just convinced myself of that over the past month)


But let's look at the draft in April of 06. I understand just how critical LB's are for the 3-4. Depending on the development of D. Jackson,which I think looks VERY promising,he and Wimbley will make a fine 1-2 punch in that department. But I think we can all see that the talent was aquired to fit the 3-4. It was clear to both RAC and Savage that the 3-4 was going to be implemented for the long haul and they addressed it.

But neither of those two choices were on O. Our highest investment on O,was a third round WR. And let's be honest a WR doesn't give any indication of your O scheme. Did Savage already feel dumping Mo was a foregone conclusion?

Enter Chud. IMO A Savage dictated hire. At least that's been the rumor. Could it be that Savage addressed the D so heavily in the 06 draft at the top,because he knew we needed an OC and waiting to invest in "his players" would be the wisest thing to do?

I mean why waste draft picks to fit an O that you don't plan on being here in a year? Do you feel that Phil knew then,that Mo was a gonner and the smartest thing to do was to wait untill we got what he feels was "a long term solution" at OC?

I mean if that's the case,it prevents the turnover of O players when the scheme changes. For example,we all expected "HOGS" on the OL at G. But look how it ended up? We have a more athletic OL that is more versatile. So we got the players to fit into Chuds scheme.

Is Savage that cunning and savvy,or was it just a coinsidence? Because wheather it was intended this way or not,it looks like the situation was handled in a manner to fit a new OC,rather than invest in a system that is no longer here a year later.

JMHO

I do think Savage is building the team the way he wants and will build a coaching staff around that.

I think Phils model is different that other teams.

I get the impression the head coach is really the executive assistant.

I think you are jus thinkin too much into it...but thts jus me..

He could only address 1 thing at a time...trying to do everyting at once leaves u mediocore on both sides....he picked the D cuz our D was horrid...u cannot play 3-4 w/o having the right people...so i think he jus picked that over the O...

Ben Taylor and Chaun Thompson are why we drafted who we drafted in 2006...

We had almost zero talent on both sides of the ball. That makes it easy; no matter who you draft, it's an upgrade. LBs are the heart of the 3-4, not too hard to figure out why we drafted three of them considering we had one possible starter. IMO, you're reading way too much into hindsight perceptions.

I hear what you're saying,but how well did we stop the run again? If you look at it,our D wasn't "stellar" last year either now was it? And let's not even discuss the secondary. It certainly wasn't "fixed" last year either. So no,the LB corp was addressed,but the D wasn't "fixed" in that draft. I don't know many people who felt it was either.

My point being,we had SO MANY holes on both sides of the ball,they weren't really going to "fix" either side in last years draft. So I don't see that as a realistic evaluation of the end result. Nor do I believe Phil thought it would "fix the D".

So I guess it boils down to one thing. Were Wimbley and Jackson "the best players on the board" when they were picked. Or were they "so close to it" that they fit not only talent,but what Phil "wanted to address" as well?

Let's face it,Mo got what,seven weeks? So it's a logical conclusion that Phil had him on a very short leash going into last year. I don't see investing highly to acquire top notched talent for a scheme with your OC on such a short leash,do you?

Imo we went to the strength of the draft. Last year's draft was heavy in top flight D prospects, and this year was the O. We simply are letting the talent in the draft telling us where to go. Next year is heavy on DL, and I'll be shocked if our 1st 2 picks (wherever they are) aren't DL picks as well. Opie has shown us one thing it's that his strategy is BPA that fills a need, and without question his picks the last 2 years have proved that imo.

some good points...

i think when you talk about the '06 draft, phil and romeo were both on board with the whole patriots thing...

the linebacker position in the 3-4 is pretty damn important, they all depend on each other being in the right place at the right time, like it's done in practice, guys just can't go and do what they want on the play, everyone has to stick to the plan, so i think it was a great idea to draft 2 linebackers early (and one later on) so that these guys all came in at the same time, and they go through the learning curve at the same time, and just like those great early patriots teams, they had success together... with the patriots and their super bowl success, the teamwork from mcginest, vrabel, bruschi, and the rest dominated the field...

it's just my opinion, because i don't think any of us really know what our front office and coaching really had in mind... but i think there is a good chance that in a few years, when the browns are successful, we can look back and say "wimbley, jackson, williams, these guys were great and they all came in together, the 2007 draft got all the attention, but the 2006 draft was equally as important"

and maybe the fact that phil moved jeff faine to jump up a few spots to get jackson backs up my theory, maybe not...

interesting, but I think it was coincidence only.

don't think he would purposely not pick the best available player.

I think it's the offseason...

Going into the '06 FA/Draft, I thought that the Browns needed OL/LB/DL help.

The signing of LCB/KS/TW addressed the lines.

WM helped with the LB's but he has only a year or 2 left in the tank.

So, I figured it was going to be one of the DL in the first, and a LB in the second. In reality we got a DL in Wembly. There was a ton of OL left on the Board when the Browns moved up to get Jackson, which was a forgone conclusion once Ryans went off the Board.

Wilson was a surprise. So was Sowells, Williams was a shock, since 2 LB's had been drafted. I have stated it before, but Savage's job may be determined by the progression of these three players.

I tend to agree with BigWillie...that Phil went to the strength of that draft which happened to be one of his favorite positons..LB's..we took three...
Plus he also used it to address some holes..
It's easy to see now that he won't address a hole early if he can't get the top player at that spot ..

i think ur reading into this a lil too much...

1) Defense is known to win championships

2) Offense helps you get there a lil easier

Look at our old defense... we needed to overhaul our LB core.. it was just something that was obvious... only thing we needed on offense was o-line...

There is an old saying I've seen used in business settings over the years. I think it may apply here as well.

When you over analyze, you paralyze! Meaning that IMO, you may be over thinking the situation. JMO however.

But let's say that you aren't over thinking it for just a moment.

My guess is that Savage had a feeling or at least a belief that Mo wasn't gonna get it done last season and he began making mental preparations for who would be brought in as OC and how that would be effected by the talent level on hand.

I'm thinking that he had a handfull of candidates in mind for OC and when the time to move Mo out rolled around, he may indeed have started looking at those candidates closer and closer. Perhaps even narrowing it down to a few guys.

Then, looking at those few guys, Savage probably had a game plan in mind for each of them as to who to get in FA and what type of player to get in the Draft.

What we may never be certain of is did he have a specific OC candidate in mind first, or did he have Players in mind first.....

i think ur reading into this a lil too much...
How so?
A 34 thrives on LB's..thats what makes it work outside of having run stuffing linemen..
The 06 draft had a lot of LB's in it and some good ones..it was a good draft to target a weak area..
We got our Tweener and and Phil used Faine to move up and get the top rated ILB in the draft..
Then he got a pretty athletic backup in Williams..
Maybe Pit is overthinking it but I understand what the process was in 06..it worked..
Did we got that route this draft?
Nope..we hit the IMMEDIATE most glaring holes we have..all except Dline...and Phil went to FA for that.

Paralysis by analysis - I use that a lot as well Damanshot. I tend to research some things to exhaustion. Like to have all my eggs in my basket before making a decision.

It's possible that Pit is over thinking,,, but who really knows what is in the mind of Savage? I sure don't.

I think your premise is a game that a GM can't afford to play.

Rather, it does sound like Savage played to the strength of the draft as some have already said.

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For example,we all expected "HOGS" on the OL at G. But look how it ended up? We have a more athletic OL that is more versatile. So we got the players to fit into Chuds scheme.

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Also, he didn't really pick offensive players in '07 that would be specific to the new offensive coordinator. With Joe Thomas and BQ being his offensive picks, they would have served us well no matter who the coordinator was. So I don't think he passed on offensive players until he saw who his new coordinator was going to be.

Even the FA's he picked up for the offense would have worked with any coordinator. But the exception of that might be McKinney who seems not to be a road grater guard, but one who probably better fits the zone blocking schemes it looks like we will be using starting this season. I think Steinbach would work well either way. You could put him on a Hog-line and he would still hold his own pretty well with athletisim and technique.

It's good that you're thinking but I believe you may have over-thought a bit too much on this one in my opinion. Somehow it doesn't surprise me because the mere assumption, at least in your title, is that RAC stood clueless through all this.

Well you must admit ddub,reading this board makes it a little confusing sometimes.

We keep hearing how "new coaches means huge player turnover" because the current players don't fit *their scheme*"

IF that contention holds any merit,would that mean players that would fit into "Mo's scheme" have fit into "Chud's scheme"? I mean did MO use anything "even similar" on his OL scheme and techniques in comparison to what we hear Chud is going to use?

And if Mo wasn't "on a short leash" after the 05 season,are you suggesting that Savage did a complete 180 on Mo in half of a season?

I think from RAC's perspective,he got what he wanted in the 06 draft. And both Wimbley and Jackson look to be great talent at the position in the draft where they were selected. Like I said earlier,we had so many holes to fill,that which side or even position that was addressed was a need.

And people can throw Shaffers name out there all they like,but Phil made it pretty clear that he wasn't the "long term solution" at LT. I see the only REAL high investment in the OL before Chud got here (at least from a talent standpoint) was Bentley.

But suddenly,after Chud was hired,BANG! The one two punch for the left side was acquired STAT!

I think you may be right along with the others. I could be "over thinking" the situation. But if I am,the stars certainly were all aligned to give Chud a "talent shot in the arm" with his arrival!


JMHO

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I think you may be right along with the others. I could be "over thinking" the situation. But if I am,the stars certainly were all aligned to give Chud a "talent shot in the arm" with his arrival!

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I think it is a timing thing like you just said.

The '06 draft was deep in LB'ers, the 3-4 needs very good LB'ers, so we got 'em.

There wasn't really a top LT within our reach in '06, as you well know, unless we consider McNeil and I don't know how you had him rated. If I remember you did make a good call on him, still, we went LB'er.

I really think '05 was a wash. Get the BPA at whatever position while Savage evaluates the team. '06 played to the strength of the draft in a position of desparate need on defense. '07 went offense in a very big way. I hope '08 is back to defense with DL.

I think you hit it on the head with the stars being aligned for Chud. He just lucked out that at the same time as his arrival Joe was there for the taking, Steinbach was on the market and BQ fell into our laps.

The LT was there for us for the first time and that chance may not have come along again in the forseeable future. We needed the franchise QB. Neither of those positions were even available while MO was here.

I know we like to think Savage pulls off miracles, and maybe he does, but taking the chance that specific positions will be available to him immediately after signing a new coordinator just might be a little more magic than he can conjure up.

Im sure Savage would even admit he didnt think this deep into it... He just wanted a better defense.. He has his goals at the end of each season, like this season was to get more running yards, to protect the QB etc.... last year was no different.. He just couldnt fix everything in one year.. so he fixed one side of the ball first, then waited to fix the next.

Actually Pit as I think about it..before that draft came about and the brass sat in their team meetings..they discussed what was needed first.. a [pass rusher...
They knew there was only one top OT and they had no shot at getting him..so with LJ wanting big time money Phil went to Shaffer..
Then used his top two picks to fill defensive holes..

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I see the only REAL high investment in the OL before Chud got here (at least from a talent standpoint) was Bentley.

But suddenly,after Chud was hired,BANG! The one two punch for the left side was acquired STAT!

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It seems more like a matter of "timing" to me, Pit. As you said earlier, we had talent defecits everywhere. I think in terms of the OL, Phil did what he could with the talent pool available. Don't forget, his first offseason was a rush-job, and the pool of FA OL players was pretty shallow, hence the Joe Anduzzi pickup. Each year after that, the FA pool got a bit deeper, until Phil really took the plunge last year with Bentley

Also, Phil has made personnel changes in the OL during EVERY SINGLE OFFSEASON so far... taking what the market will offer each year. This past offseason netted us Seinbach, but I gurantee you that Phil would have made a serious run at him in any previous offseason, if he were available at that time.

Grabbing Thomas this draft was a no-brainer, as well- fit a need, best on the board at that spot, good cred.

In a sense, this is an "alignment of stars" situation... these guys are coming together in the Orange & Brown not because Phil had a crystal ball regarding Mo, Chudz, or anyone else.... but because Phil's jumping on the BPA whenever he pops up.

Besides... the stars have been aligned against us for the better share of a decade. A little turnaround in our fortunes was long overdue, if you ask me.

An interesting take on it Pit...

Here's what I think.. Option 1 is that those were just the 2 best players available at the time, which is what Phil would have you believe.. If there is an underlying "scheme" in Phil's mind I think it went more like this..

Our defense is already better than our offense, we can shore up our defense quicker and cheaper than we can our offense. The team needs an identity, so let's try to build a REAL good defense through the draft, while trying to improve the Offense a bit through free agency, THEN we'll go after offense. Not only that, building a solid defense will keep us in, and give us a chance to win, games immediately....