DawgTalkers.net Forums The Archives 2017 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 20 Saints 14 Postgame Thoughts

I think the term "ruined" has a sense of permanence about it. When talking about something other than quarterbacks being ruined, doesn't it mean that it is no longer usable for it's intended purpose?

I think the whole discussion about QBs the Browns ruined is way overdone. Most of them were just flat out not good enough. The only one we might have "ruined" was Couch, and even that was more because of the system he came from - never having had a playbook or lining up under center, and mostly just playing pitch-and-catch with free-running WRs at Kentucky. That and the fact that our O-Line in the first couple years probably couldn't have competed in the SEC, and nearly got him killed.

I watch quite a bit of old highlights or games on the internet. The 01-04 Browns were my first real experiences as a TRUE fan. Sure, I remember the early 90s, but I was too young to be that attached. When the Browns returned, I was hooked big time. So that's my first connection.

Anyways, when I watch Tim Couch I get the feeling that he could have been a good QB. He had a good arm, good accuracy, and was pretty tough. Was he Peyton Manning? No. Not even close. But he had talent. I think he's the biggest QB victim of our ineptitude.

That's kind of the definition of ruining a QB

I agree ...

No telling. What if you were born to different parents?

They might have been rich, you went to Harvard and had a unlimited future, or born to a poor Indian family where you might hope you could be a guy named "Chuck" answering phones for AFLC.

haha good point

Right, e was sucessful at Kentucky running one type of offense and we brought him into the NFL and tried to force him into an offense that wasnt suited to him. Remember we wouuld get down in games and go to a wide open , spread offense and Tim wouuld drive us up and down the field? Exact type of offense he ran at Kentucky.

Our dysfunctional organization , and front office has ruined many talented players . They have failed over and over to put the players in a position where they have any chance of suceeding

I would argue that the NFL put us in a position of having virtually no chance for success. Look at the conditions Jacksonville and Carolina enjoyed during their expansion year a few years earlier, as opposed to ours. The league gave the Browns less than a year to get a front office in place for their expansion draft and college draft in '99. In comparison, Tom Coughlin had 17 months to prepare for Jacksonville's expansion draft and initial college draft. He spent that time scouting and watching film of players in the league and in college. Jville and Carolina had time to be prepared while we had a newbie GM (Dwight Clark) making personnel decisions on short time. The Browns were doomed to fail from the get-go.

I heard Mike Lombardi on a podcast and he said that Tom Coughlin had access to other teams practices in order to scout players. It's how he knew Keenan McCardell was good and why he signed him (according to Lombardi).

To a certain extent I agree. Everything you stated is the truth, but the league didnt force us to hire incompetent people, and never give even the decent ones a chance to build anything.

We should take it easy on Clark. He's got major problems.

San Francisco 49ers legend Dwight Clark diagnosed with ALS
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18955466/san-francisco-49ers-legend-dwight-clark-diagnosed-als

sucks to hear. what a terrible disease

It is possible to feel bad for a person and say they did a bad job at the same time.

Yes, he was a poor GM. That doesn't mean he is a bad person, and obviously, he was a great player too.

My dad died from ALS - I would not wish that on anyone. I'll pray for him. But its not the point. He wasn't prepared for the impossible job he was given. I recall hearing Bernie Kosar on a local radio show saying that he recommended Bill Belichick to be head coach of the new Browns in a meeting with Lerner, Policy, and Clark and they all laughed at him. The rest is history.

I think the biggest mistake he/they made was drafting Timid to begin with. Dude sucked in almost every measurable way.

And I have thought for a long, long time that most Brown's fans don't have a clue about qbs.

I guess anyone who has been around here for any amount of time knows how you feel about Couch, and that's your right - of course. I just don't agree.

Sorry about your Dad, I couldnt imagine having to watch a loved one suffer like that.

As for Belichick, obviously he has shwn himself to be a great coach since his time here, but I am not sure he would have had much success with that new franchise in 99. First, he was a pretty unliked guy in Cleveland, and that FO was all about PR. I dont think he would have gotten the time,patience, and resources he got to built what he built in NE.

After all the stuff we heard about Bernie and Bill - and The Tunnel - I figure if Bernie could forgive him and become friends with him, I certainly could. I know one thing about BB: nobody outworked him, ever. I think he would have found a way to get things moving in the right direction.

Oh I think he would too,if given the time . Thats the part I am not sure he would have gotten that

j/c

For any of you who missed the game (or part of it) NFL Network will be replaying it tomorrow (Monday, 8-14) at 1pm.

thanks

What are you trying to say. Are you saying this team is clearly one of the 5 worst teams in football after the season, or

Are you saying this team is clearly one of the 28 best teams after this season plays out and there will be at least 4 teams worse than this team?

With the exception of Kevin Zeitler, I am skeptical of the goodness of the Browns offensive line. I think it can play out, but it's not a given.

I don't hold confidence in the ability not to get pushed around, of Bittonio, or Greco, at Lg, I don't think the Browns have anybody to play Right Tackle,
I haven't seen enough of J.C. Trettor play,

And Joe Thomas. Well Joe Thomas is Joe Thomas, a real good pass blocker, but I'd still take Tony Jones, (in his day), over him. Tony Jones was the Browns left tackle somewhere around the years 1991-1995 ish.

I don't know why the Browns can't seem to develop toughness and confidence in offensive line players who happen to join the team and spend time on it, over time, there seems little or no improvement among O-line players, in a 15 year window of time, in spite of many top draft picks, and free agent acquisitions allocated to that area.

Yet the consensous on this Board is often or always that the Browns have a good O-line, the Browns have a top O-line, well Where Is It! Throw My hands up in the air and say, What has it gotten you!

The Browns offensive line has a lot to prove, they've always had a lot to prove, NO Browns are winning a rushing title, the RB's often aren't rushing for 120yds on the day, and even when there is pass protection, (sometimes) the QB's don't know how to take advantage of it.

I don't have any doubts that he would of.

I don't think that Belichick ever needed Bernie's forgiveness. The fact of the matter is that Vinny was a better qb than Bernie when BB made the switch. The coach made the right decision even if the media and the fans didn't believe it to be so.

I agree now and back then.

It was never personal. It was hard for all involved, but BB showed what he was all about and it has worked out for him and NE, which kinda stinks for us Browns fans, because that should have been us.

Now Bill's era is coming to an illustrious story book ending and Hue's has really just began.

If Hue becomes half as successful as BB, we will be blessed.

Just be grateful. Had BB stayed on, he would of been the head coach of the Ravens now.

Technically he was fired by the Ravens.....

Modell agreed to leave behind the Browns name and legacy on February 9, 1996.

Belichick was fired on February 15, 1996.


The name "Ravens" was adopted on March 29, 1996.

So, technically, Belichick was fired by the Baltimore nobodies.

"Forgiveness" was probably the wrong term to use. I should have said something like "made peace with and became friends with". That said - and I certainly don't want to revive the Vinny/Bernie debate - I would just remind you that the choice at the time was not Vinny Testaverde over Bernie; it was Todd Freaking Philcox, for 4 games because Vinny had a separated shoulder when they cut Kosar. The team went from 5-3 to 5-7 over that period; from playoff contender to also ran. They won 2 more games that year after cutting Kosar. It may have been the right decision, long term, but at that point in the season it was disastrous IMO.

I do not share your pessimism are you saying we are the worst offensive line in the nfl like last year when we surrendered a league leading number of sacks?