DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Trying to Trade Haden

Maybe you are to close to see it, but there is a trend here....and typically injured, struggling aging players don't revert to the players they were 2-3 years ago.

We'll see. I certainly don't approve of people using injury riddled seasons as some evidence of what a healthy player would do. Maybe you missed that.

+1

Is that not the role of a team's #1 CB?

If your referring to me, I was just showing Hack how bad Haden was last year while injured because of his(Hack's) comment about even a washed up Haden was better then their #2 CBs last year.

And the point you are missing is the fact that he's been injured the past 2 seasons is a trend and whether you agree or not expecting an NFL player to reverse that trend is an exercise in hope not business.

I guess this means the Lambo gets painted. Black and yellow.

It's split evenly amongst the players on the team.

I don't know where the rumor about him being the 3rd best corner on team originated from, but if that's true then the release makes a bit more sense. 3rd corner plays in the slot, right? Can you imagine Joe trying to play inside?

I love JH, believe me. I thought, overall, he did an excellent job whenever he was healthy. The thing that drove me nuts about him was technique. He seemed to start with poor/inconsistent technique and recover with his speed and physicality. Wouldn't that be exacerbated if he were moved to the slot? And if he were not played in the slot, he'd be paid 11mill to sit on the bench (again, this argument is predicated on him actually being the 3rd best CB on the team).

I dunno... the heart really really hated this move, and hates it even more with him going to the Steelers, but the head is slowly starting to come around. They better go and get at least a decent vet to replace him (I doubt you're going to get anyone at his level, though).

Link

I hadn't really considered this angle before, and I'm not sure if I completely agree with it, but it sounded worth a closer look.

It made me think of the Rams decision to keep Trumaine Johnson over Janoris Jenkins. What exactly is Gregg Williams looking for in his corners?

The more I read Hue's quotes, the more my focus shifts.

"His body needs (those veteran days of) rest."

"When he's played in competitive situations, he's done that very well, so it's good for Joe."

Maybe he's not as healthy as I was thinking.

If they do think he's never going to be completely healthy and continuously something of a question mark day to day, maybe it is better to let the future start now.

I also wonder how calculated some of Hue's pressers are now. How much is blunt truth, how much is trying to prop up someone's value, how much is trying to soothe egos?

He was crushed when he was released... after he was asked to take a paycut? Joe must not be the sharpest tool in the shed...

<<sigh>>

Why don't we just say that "every move the FO makes is brilliant" each and every time we discuss a move they make? And then find a way to twist a bunch of words around to justify that comment.

Where did I say it was brilliant? I've said I disagreed with it.

Am I not allowed to try to make sense of it? Can I not try to figure out what they were thinking?

Do I have to dig in and insist I'm right no matter what?

Joe's gone. I could harp on it forever, but I'd rather try to figure out how to move forward positively.

Can we look at what Williams asks his corners to do? And what the "prototype" to do that would look like?

Based on the past 2 seasons Joe is farther away from being an elite CB then the other guys.

I think every scheme wants an elite CB. I'm not even sure what that word choice means. I guess the man a scheme that heavily dependent on man coverage?

Joe graded much better in zone then in man and the Steelers play a lot of xone....but so does Gregg roughly 2/3 of his coverages w/ Rams were zone Cover 2/Cover 3.

You can respond however you like. I didn't tell you can't. However, I can reply to your response, especially when I think Hue's words are being manipulated in an attempt to justify the release of a player.

I think that is fair.

No that's not the norm for a #1 CB. Others have too, but that is an exception, not the rule.

I suspect that the front office consulted with the coaching staff about what role they saw for Haden. I suspect that it was as a N/D, with the defensive coaches really liking McCouirty, Taylor, and Boddy-Calhoun above Haden ..... and paying him $11 million for that role was not in line with the front office's analytics. They tried to lower his pay, though still well above what a 3rd/4th CB would make, and Haden said no.

I do think that the staff had some input, but they didn't say "Cut him!". They agreed that his role was no longer as a starter, or maybe not even as a NB, and that made the pay cut easy in the analytical structure.

I think implying that I say "every move is brilliant" and using your passive aggressive <<sigh>> when I disagreed with cutting Haden is more manipulative than my adding bold to direct quotations.

I know, I know, we should all just take your word for everything and not question anything or try to look at it from a different angle. As you are so fond of telling everyone, you are almost always right. You do make sure to admit that you have been wrong....seasons later when everyone has moved on.

I'd say that is me responding how I like, but it's not. It's me being grumpy and aggravated as another potentially interesting thread goes off the rails.

No offense Ytown, but its absolutely ridiclious to evne insinuate that Haden isn't a starting quality corner in the NFL...i'll even say he is still in the Top tier of NFL Corners.



You guys are all basing your judgements on Haden while he was playing with no only a groin injury, but a hernia as well, injuries most other players would have taken IR for. Furthermore, Haden still played better then any corner on our current roster DESPITE having all those injuries.

Joe Haden is still a shut down corner....he had just been being held back by injuries. He is 28 years old, he is still a kid, folks are acting like he's 60 LOL

Joe Haden is finally fully healthy again and we cut him....this is why this team is losers.

We now have ZERO impact players on this team...the only player have that "might" become one is Garret...thats it.

You need 3-4 impact guys on your team to win, and we just gave one away for free.

We will never have a winning team as long as we continue operating like this.

...or, why don't we allow someone the opportunity to speculate without insulting them? Kind of like you just accused someone of doing to you last week.

We'll, he's getting paid likely what the paycut would have entailed with a team that is a perennial playoff team with a QB with rings, coach with a ring and so on.

Not such a dummy after all.

Really hope this doesn't come back to bite us of money we have stored away FAR under the cap.

I have no problem with the Browns cutting Haden. He has been disappointing the last few years. The injuries were adding up and he wasn't producing and was very often a liability on the field. Upon cutting him he would be free to go where he chooses. It's unfortunate they were unable to trade him but they tried. The Steelers have been desperate at DB. They even traded for Gilbert who was clearly a bust and is out of the league now. Their signing of him means little to me in terms of Haden's future value. The only unfortunate aspect is Haden knows Browns plays but I have a feeling we would end up losing the opening game anyway with a new defensive system in place and so many new players and a rookie QB. Who knows,we may still win. This certainly is no apocalypse. This front office may not make all the right moves but they aren't making Ray Farmer type moves.

Huh, I would not have guessed that. Thanks.

j/c

Money move aside, I think it was schematic. He may be healthier than he's been in a couple years, but Joe plays man and Williams wants zone. I do hate that he's going to the enemy. He's basically giving them our playbook.

Does it matter this year? I don't see us being that competitive...

I loved joe... Had an opportunity to meet him a few years ago and thought he was a great guy... Not surprised to see him cut but sad to see him going to Pittsburgh

And you are doing nothing more than predicting that even after surgery he won't be better. Your view holds no more water than mine.

j/c

This team needed Haden the last couple of years. So much so that the man sacrificed his body and played injured. He played for us even when he needed surgery. That's the kind of thing we wish all of our players were willing to do. Now the fans of the team use his production while injured against him as an excuse as to why releasing him was a good idea.

No good deed goes left unpunished. Shame on those who are doing this.

It wasn't a smart move, it wasn't a stupid move.

It was a move that involves some gamble/risk and some logical benefits.
Expensive veteran that wasn't playing worth his price tag is asked to take a pay cut or restructure and he chooses not to.... so he gets released when we can't trade him. It's just business in the NFL.

He was getting paid like he was one of the best CB's in the league, but he arguably wasn't even Top 3 on our own roster. Something was bound to give.

My post was intended as sarcasm. I'm highly skeptical that he was "crushed".

I don't know for sure. But don't they have non disclosure clause, so players can't give playbooks away?

would seem to me that they would. anyone know for sure?

good luck enforcing that

It's not the actual "book", it's what's in his head. His knowledge of the schemes, etc.

yea that is what I figured. Just wanted to blanket the topic to be sure.

From what I've read I believe we would have kept Joe if he agreed to the pay cut. I would hope the FO spoke to the coaching staff about him before a decision was made. My take is that he's not the player he once was due to injuries and was not worth the money they were paying him so they cut him. I still think Joe is a decent player and he could have helped us this year but we may pick someone up who could fill his role, Time will tell.

LMAO........I insulted him? That's priceless coming from you!

Where did I say that you should take my word for it? You're just making things up because someone dares think differently and questions a move that the FO makes.

Y'all express your opinions on things. I can express mine, as well. I am simply saying that I don't believe Hue was making stuff up about Joe. I think he meant it. Excuse the hell out of me for thinking that.

No, actually my posts, especially my original the first ones on this topic explain why I don't think this was a bad move.

I'm not predicting anything. I'm countering your view point with the reality of NFL business.

Gregg Williams said the only reason he didn't cut Joe when he first arrived was finding out that Joe was playing through injury.

Based on Joe's recent injury and performance history its only good business sense to ask him to take a pay cut.
They already did exactly what you are asking they do again this year...hope that since Joe was healthy that he would stay healthy over the course of the season and perform at high level. That was their expectation for the past 2 seasons and for the past 2 seasons they've been burned.

Asking him to take a pay cut based is a completely fair ask based on his performance/injury history. It would have been the best of both worlds getting fair market value based on the past 2 seasons and giving him an opportunity to stay on the team and possibly still contribute. They likely saw him taking the paycut as returning their favor loyalty the past 2 seasons.