My biggest fear with this team how is that Haslam will start swinging the axe prematurely.
Hearing people say that it should be done now or even soon, makes me kind of sick to my stomach.
Agreed. I really don't want to start over either, but the Harvard Boys(Sashi and Depodsta) forgot to take into account that the NFL doesn't have an "developmental league" and they over estimated how many of these players coming out of the draft are ready to play day one.
only 30% of 1st rd picks pan out, the 2nd round is slightly lower....the majority of these guys coming out are not ready to play day one. Its the same in baseball, thats why they have farm teams to devlop guys and get them ready for the big leagues.
Back in the day, rosters had veterans on it, and newly drafted guys no matter where they were picked, sat until they earned the chance to play. The Browns literally have to play guys off the get because they have no vets..we literally only have 6 guys on roster with 6 or more years of experience and one of them is the punter lol
This quagmire we are in all 100% Sashi Brown and Depodesta fault...Folks hating on Haden, Jackson wanted to keep him because Jackson knows you need veteran leadership in the secondary.
It we had Hue Jackson running the draft and personel decisions rather then Moneyball Sashi and Paul we would be much farther along then we are now...i bet our drafts would have been much different had Jackson been running them i 100% believe that.
You can already see the frustration seeping out of Jackson about this front office He was livid they cut Haden, Jackson didn't even know they were shopping him. This whole thing is wreck.
I am sad that Jackson is going to take the rap for this and get canned with these other two bozo's when in reality we need to can the other two bozo's and keep Jackson around for another 3-4 years....
When you make as many mistakes as the Browns did; well it is impossible to win.
However, it is not time to panic. This kind of game can be expected from a rookie quarterback.
Take a look back. See how Elway, Aikman, and Peyton did their rookie year. They had games like this.
"FIRE THE COACH" Thread really? How thoughtful and productive.
The key now is how do they come back from this game? This is how you tell what you have.
If Coleman is out with a broken hand that will hurt bad. They need him to be available and productive.
In the big picture this is a learning process for Kizer and a young team. It was ugly. But we have games to play and the team must learn to eliminate mistakes.
Kizer is still worth the investiment. None of the 2018 guys impress me.
I do think Hue needs a playcaller, but he should still get, at minimuim, 2 more years. If he is truly bad, he will dig his own grave.
The Ravens are death to a rookie QB. There hasnt been a rookie QB who has had any success there in a long time.
Additionally, Kevin Hogan was flat out bad. He had a really good drive but he doesnt threaten a defense at all. We do not win the game with him.
Turnovers, young mistakes and lack of talent to overcome those mistakes. The damn running game is a joke. Crow is missing running lanes. Duke can hit them but he also may be our best passing game threat. He can only do so much.
Higgins emerged. He looked awesome. He has locked his spot on the roster.
Britt's looking like a total waste. I waited until the regular season, but his effort and attitude have made him totally expendable.
Njoku, when he gets more experience, is going to be real good.
I thought our defense played as well as they could. The Ravens took advantage of short field from turnovers, but other than that, they didnt do much. Kirksey needs to be smarter at the goalline.
Next 5 games are real vital. They should be able to win some of those games. They will not be overwhelmed by talent, in fact we should have the talent edge in most games. Now its time to win.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
Yesterday, I felt as if the team regressed from a week ago. Kind of like were watching the "NOT READY" for Prime Time Players in action.
The D wasn't strong enough against the Ravens.. Not even close.
Not sure what to make of the migraine that Kizer had. But I gotta say, whatever they gave him that made it so he could come back so quick,, Well, I want some of that.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Got to... but won't. Game two and it's not that I'm calling for firing(s), hatred and etc - but I already lost confidence. Already stopped tuning into the press conferences. Already the first to admit my prediction is far from a reachable outcome.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Jeudy is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Tillman is flanked out wide to the right. Judkins and Ford are split in the backfield as Flacco takes the snap ... Here we go."
I kept yelling at the stupid announcers when they said that Baltimore's defense "forced" all these turnovers. The only one I saw that was "forced" was the strip sack in the first quarter. One interception was off Duke's hands and the other 2 by Kizer and 1 by Hogan were thrown right to the defenders.
Which is even more indicative he's not even close to being ready. What's it going to look like under pressure and he does decide to force it instead of taking the 10 yard sacks he does now. Physically he's what you want, but all the tangibles you look for in a Qb he doesn't have. Some you can coach, some you can't, by all accounts he's very coachable and works extremely hard. I'm praying with some easier defenses he'll start to see things..Hue did him no favors by starting him game one and two with 2 of the toughest defenses. I think when it comes down to it, most people are pissed at Hue and how he's handled it than they are at Kizer. You can only do what you can do.
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
I don't think anyone argue with you that kizer isn't ready. The question is what is the best way to get him to ready asap and to optimize his talents in the long run.
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Rosen is Kizer but with actual real attitude problems.
Josh Allen plays like absolute garbage any time he plays an average college football team.
Only guys I like, Jackson and Fitzgerald, are still extremely raw or have major problems *Fitzgerald needs more time, Jackson is way too skinny to be an NFL running QB*
The 2018 draft hype was insane in the first place. People massively overrated Josh Allen and Sam Darnold got hype from 1 game.
Kizer needs time. People are acting like he is a finished product. Its absolutely manic that people are writing him off. He is still the 3rd Youngest NFL QB to ever play. It was his first road game in one of the loudest stadiums in the NFL, while going through migraine symptoms.
Moved this here from the Kizer it is thread since it is now locked. Figure that it fit here as well.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You are the second person to talk about us not giving Kize any check down options. I totally disagree. Here is a video that cfrs posted earlier in the thread. You can watch it all if you like, but the first play is a perfect example that refutes your claim. Hue is not stupid.
I have never seen the All 22. Pretty cool way to watch the game! I wish they would use that more in actual game coverage on TV.
Video was a lot longer that I expected when I clicked it open and I don't have time to watch all of it before I have to leave for work. But I did watch that 1st play. Here is what I saw on that one play:
1, Crowell was definitely there as a checkdown
2, Kizer definitely saw him and almost threw it to him but then he saw the the Lb closing and decided against it. Good decision there. This would have bee a cross body throw late over the middle while scrambling out of the pocket to a Rb the was slowing down and a Lb that was closing. The ball would have floated and turned into an interception.
3, While observation #2 is a good decision, He should have seen the check down sooner than he did. Crowell was open for a while but he was seen too late. So why was he late finding the check down. See observation 4.
4, The steelers got some pressure through the RT. Kizer sprint out right and by the time he gets clear it is too late to hit Crowell. This is where I have an issue with this play. The Browns actually had a really good pocket established. The steeler rusher was being pushed deep by the RT. There was zero pressure up the middle or from the left. What Kizer should have done was step up into the pocket rather than leave the pocket. Had he done that, he would have had Crowell and the TE about 15 yards away from each other with that one linebacker listed above having to try to cover both of then. Easy throw to a receiver 5 yards down the field with a couple yards to run post catch.
5, To cut Kizer some slack, I did have to slow the video down to half speed to see all this. To cut me some slack, I never played Qb. I wonder what Kelly was teaching him to do at ND. IS this what Kizer learned in college or is it his natural reaction that Kelly waas trying to change? My suspicion is that this is his natural reaction but Kelly wasn't trying to teach him to step up into the pocket either. Just my own completely subjective opinion. Can Hue teach him new habits? How long will it take?
jester, just a thought on your observation #4. I watched about 12 minutes and focused on #72 Coleman. He controlled his man on virtually every play. that first play was about his only failure during that time. I would love to know how our coaches have evaluated his performances thus far but I think we may have our right tackle.
Had to go to calling hours. Why was Hogan inserted?
He was put in because the "Kiz" had a headache. He lobbied to come back in when he saw he was being outplayed by Hogan.
Kizer is a wimp. So is Hue for putting him back in the game.
A friggen headache??
You obviously have never had or don't know anyone that suffered from Migraines. They are not just "headaches" they provide enough pain to make a grown man whimper. Also nausea and double vision. Read up on it. Migraines can be serious business. Not a joking matter.
“It doesn't make sense to hire smart people and tell them what to do; we hire smart people so they can tell us what to do.” -Steve Jobs.
Just seems like groundhog day with this team. We're 0-2, local media already circling the wagons with the coach, etc..
I just think we have to give this thing time. Right now Hue Jackson looks in over his head. Deshone Kizer looks in over his head.
Saw a lot of criticism about the lack of rushes when you are starting a rookie QB. Totally agree. They're killing themselves with this pre-snap stuff. They are barely getting plays off, and while it shows a lack of being on the same page, it also lets the defense know exactly when the snap is coming. It seems like every drive goes as such:
We can't get out of our own way. Our defense is not great by any means, but they are giving us a chance, and our offense is just destroying an hope.
I've seen enough of Kenny Britt. Can we please stop signing aging vets in FA? Just please stop. Sign a guy of someone's practice squad who's fighting to feed his freaking family. Britt's body language is awful. He's doing a ton of loafing. Enough. Just cut him. He's doing nobody any good right now. I know how hard that will be with Coleman out, but just cut the freaking guy. He doesn't deserve a roster spot.
I really like what Jamar Taylor brings. There is not a lot of positive with this team, but I love that guy's energy. He's playing pretty well.
Jamie Collins struggled Sunday too, but like I have said before, I'm big on body language, I get the feeling that he's doing everything he can to make plays and get the defense going.
I hope Hue doesn't get conned into starting Kevin Hogan at any point. We know where things go with that guy. He's not good enough to sustain at the NFL level. He's got a leg up on Kizer because he's got an extra year of Hue's offense, and prior pro style experience in college, but he does not have the raw skills that Kizer has.
Hue said he was going to give Kizer the whole year, he has to stick with it. There will be ups and downs. We saw some ups in week one, and an overall bad game in week two. This is going to happen. If he can survive the year, he will really benefit with another year and another training camp under his belt. I hope the migraine stuff isn't something that regular happens, we saw it really have an effect on Percy Harvin's career.
I think we have found something in Jabril Peppers. They are still trying to figure out how to use him, but he's literally in on every play, and obviously doing special teams. That's the kind of players we need more of. If we ever get a pass rush, Peppers is going to feast on bad throws, hurried throws, deflected throws, etc.. He's kind of an x-factor. Hopefully Garrett can get back soon and help with some of that.
This really sucks, but hopefully we can at least see some development out of guys, long way to go.
Kizer needs time. People are acting like he is a finished product. Its absolutely manic that people are writing him off. He is still the 3rd Youngest NFL QB to ever play. It was his first road game in one of the loudest stadiums in the NFL, while going through migraine symptoms.
Give the kid a break. Christ
Couldn't agree more.
Look no further than Detroit with Matthew Stafford. They showed quite a bit of patience with him, and he was closer to a finished product that Kizer is coming out as a 21 year old 2nd round pick. Stafford the last two years has been so great when his team has needed him the most. 97 and 93 rating his last two years. He's lowkey become one of the most reliable quarterbacks in the league. But man, that first year was ROUGH. And the only difference between the team he started with and Kizer's is a freaking blocked field goal at the end of December.
People really need to just suck it up. And I can't stand this "oh well we've been waiting for 18 years" garage. Sashi and Hue haven't been here for 18 years, so why should we dump that pile of garbage on their plate?
Not sure how you missed all the tackles Peppers completely whiffed on in the open field????
Saw him make a bunch of nice plays too. He's a rookie, so I expect a bit of a curve. He's also being lined up all over the place, including 25 yards down field. Very hard to make tackles in open field when you have to use up energy just to get to the point of impact.
He did make a lot of plays, but he looked bad in space. I think he would be better at SS rather than FS. He got embarrassed at least 3 times. He was the guy who whiffed when the announcers said something about "tackling air."
I get that Williams doesn't want the defense to get torched deep, but playing Peppers 25 - 30 yards deep needs reconsidered...
Jordan Zirm Verified account @clevezirm again, I get you're trying to prevent the big play, but if Flacco had seen Watson over the middle here, he's getting to the red zone anyway
I think Baltimore saw what Williams did in game one and exploited it in game two. I was surprised Williams stuck w/that weird alignment.
It might say more about what he thinks of our safeties' coverage abilities than anything else.
Btw---------earlier, I mentioned how poor Peppers' tackling was in space. All 3 were when he had to come flying up from his deep alignment. He is a fast straight line runner, but the lateral movement in space isn't looking so good. I'd put him at SS. He is very strong and is a punishing tackler. I like him closer to the LOS rather than playing in space.
I remember that play - I was yelling go right OR left, just don't wait and/or run into the linemen directly in front of you. He could have gone either way I think if he had decided quickly - especially if he went to the right.
** I'd suggest clicking the link for the gifs so you can follow the article better. **
Film Study: Browns’ five turnovers against the Ravens\
You frown at one turnover. Two turnovers often cost you a game. Forget it when you have five against any NFL team.
This week’s film study reflecting on the Browns vs. Ravens game from this past week will begin by focusing on each of the team’s five turnovers. I found a nice way to do some annotations at the beginning of GIFs along with some pausing, so hopefully it makes the plays easier for you to follow.
Turnover #1 - Fumble in the 1st Quarter The Ravens lined rush linebacker Terrell Suggs wide on RT Shon Coleman on this 3rd-and-13 play mid-way through the third quarter. First, you can see that the protection is “good enough” for a play like this when you know defenders are pinning their ears back. By the time Kizer gets sacked, 4.5 seconds have gone by. RB Duke Johnson did a good job picking up the blitz S Tony Jefferson. A sack isn’t the worst thing in the world here; it’s the fumble that really hurts.
Was anybody open? Wide right is Corey Coleman, but he’s covered pretty tightly in man-to-man. Slot left is WR Rashard Higgins running a route over the middle, but a linebacker is dropping into zone coverage underneath that route. Kizer is only looking at Coleman and Higgins on this play.
Once Kizer saw the single high safety commit to the right side of the field, he should’ve aired it out deep to the left side of the field for WR Kenny Britt, who wins at the line of scrimmage and has his man beat. Even if the play is intercepted, it’s a one-on-one situation on third down and could’ve served as a long punt.
Turnover #2 - Interception in 1st Quarter Facing a 3rd-and-4 in field goal territory with a minute to go in the first quarter and down 7-0, Kizer threw his first interception of the game. On Monday, head coach Hue Jackson talked about when he knew something was wrong with Kizer:
“There was a play that DeShone I think knows extremely well where we send the motion and the motion didn’t happen, and then he ended up looking to a different side so that had not been the way he responded. When he came off and I asked him about it, he wasn’t very clear to me about what it was so then I knew then that something wasn’t happening. He told me, he said, ‘Coach, my head is kind of pounding’ so I knew then that something was not right.” Kizer confirmed that he forgot to motion a guy on his first interception. It makes sense now — when I saw this play live, I wondered why the snap nearly collided with the motion man; it’s because Kizer never called for the motion, and then WR Rashard Higgins just decided to (correctly) move in motion on his own.
As for the play itself, TE Seth DeValve goes out to the right flat, but this play is all about getting WR Ricardo Louis to cross from left to right, with RB Duke Johnson crossing just underneath him. The hope is that Johnson breaks open on the pick, and that the motion with Higgins would’ve drawn a defender out of the way. Despite the motion miscue, the play still worked and Johnson was open. Now, Eric Weddle may have still stopped him shy of the marker, but Johnson is shifty in those open field situations.
This pass is in close range, so the pass needs to be stuck on the receiver. Johnson has to stick one hand out to try to corral this, and he cannot. The tip goes right into the arms of Weddle for the pick.
Turnover #3 - Interception in 2nd Quarter This one falls on Kevin Hogan. He’s got WR Sammie Coates wide right in a one-on-one match-up with 0:30 to go and one timeout in the first half. WR Ricardo Louis is wide left, and WR Rashard Higgins is in the slot.
Ideally, the Browns need to get 15-20 yards in 2-3 plays to get into field goal range for K Zane Gonzalez. Maybe Hogan was feeling like Superman with the success he’d had up until this point, but he throws to a triple-covered. Hogan originally didn’t trust the protection from RT Shon Coleman, which is why he bailed from the pocket. Even though Hogan was excellent (compared to Kizer) besides this throw, this was a ridiculous momentum-shifter, as Baltimore went on to score a touchdown to lead 21-7 heading to the half.
Turnover #4 - Interception in 4th Quarter The Browns were down 24-10 with 12 minutes to go in the game, but faced a 2nd-and-goal here. A touchdown makes this a whole new ball game...and the killer part is that Kizer had WR Rashard Higgins open by NFL standards.
Higgins is in the slot to the left running a quick post route. The safety steps up and vacates the middle of the field, and Higgins beats CB Ladarius Webb to the inside. If Kizer delivers a strike over the middle, it’s a touchdown. Instead, the ball is well behind him, allowing Carr to undercut and intercept the pass. The other players on the route were WR Sammie Coates (wide left, running a shallow slant) and WR Ricardo Louis wide right (running the fade).
Turnover #5 - Interception in 4th Quarter The final interception comes mid-way through the fourth quarter on a 3rd-and-5 play. WR Rashard Higgins is wide right, running a stop-and-go that he appears to later convert to a slant to try to get open for a scrambling Kizer. Kizer ends up throwing back across the field, which so often leads to interceptions.
Other options included WR Kenny Britt running a shallow crosser and WR Ricardo Louis running a short route that ended up being double teamed. TE David Njoku is running a flag/fade route up the left sideline, and if we’re going to make a desperation throw, I’d again prefer it to be in a one-on-one situation like this against a safety.
—
It was a bad day for the offense, and we can only hope that Baltimore was just a bad match-up for Kizer to process. The Colts’ defense ranks near the bottom of the league in pass defense through two weeks, but the struggles against Baltimore really boiled down to poor accuracy and decision-making.
Kizer is clearly to blame for every single one. (except for the Hogan INT) . I've not seen every play that Britt was in last Sunday but he clearly won his one-on-one against the defender and was wide open for the throw (Can't remember which turnover it was). Kizer is not seeing the field and holds the ball too long, just like everyone else has said. That and accuracy was another common issue.
The guy simply had a horrible game. No other way around it.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
I remember that play - I was yelling go right OR left, just don't wait and/or run into the linemen directly in front of you. He could have gone either way I think if he had decided quickly - especially if he went to the right.
Yeah, and he wanted to get paid top five money hahah, most average backs don't miss that hole... especially when your FB is smart enough to see that blocker was engaged and went to the next level.
Let's see more Dayes and Duke, I want to. Not saying Crow sucks, but I'd like see what other options we have.
The more I read about this game and hear from others who were either there or watch it the more it seems that we pretty much gave the game away with our mistakes. The Ravens won but they didn't beat us. If we played a clean game we probably would have won. The sequence of events just before halftime really hurt us. Trials of a young team no doubt.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg)
