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Those stats tell you no such thing, you are INFERRING the information from raw numbers.
I really don't think I'm inferring much at all. There is enough statistical evidence to come out with an informed answer, especially when you have seen the games.
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Did those 5 INTs bounce off of his receiver's hands/chest before being picked?
Well I could tell you how many of the three I know of did if I cared enough to look it up. The fact is there was also ints that were dropped that should have been caught. Those type of things tend to equal out in the long run.
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Not to speak for him, but I believe this is why Diam is advocating watching and evaluating on performance rather than looking at stats and assuming things that may or may not be there.
I know what Diam thinks and he is baically right. What I have a problem with is everybody always repeating his phrase "stats are for losers" and dismissing them out of hand. I think it is idiotic to look at a stat like QB rating and use that is a measure of what QB is better.
I also think the same can be said for people who say a player makes all his tackles so many yards downfield when stats prove it not to be the case. "stats are for losers" is just a cop-out.
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You can't erase memories from your brain.....would you reach these same conclusions by looking at these numbers from an unknown QB, or are you reaching these conclusions based on the numbers AS WELL AS THE FACT that you witnessed these actual events???
Of course my end conclusion is combinig both. The stats do show the disparity in ints from both sides of the field as well as Frye favoring his right. Actually seeing the games gives context to the stats.
#gmstrong
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Since only one first round pick is signed in the entire league, does that mean all of the teams except the Bears have failed?
See, here is the deal B......I don't give a sh.. about other teams.
Why should I??
I admit...I am a selfish person....I only care about things I care about. Everything else is simply a irritation.
Especially when it comes to football.
I like the Browns and I like the Gators. All the others run from a far second to absolutely nothing in my book.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I think what U showed is BS .. but I'll ignore that ... heres my questions ...
How many times % wise have u seen STATS used properly???
How many times U seen me use my saying when someone used stats correctly on here (and thats a VERY VERY RARE ACCURENCE)???
Do U think MenZa's stats in this thread are worth anything??? are they a GOOD USE OF STATS????
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So looking around at the 31 other teams to come up with a fair and objective conclusion before accusing the Browns,the only "pro team you *care* about" of "failure" is not a reasonable part of the equasion in the thought process?  That's what I'm gathering from your comments. I'm just trying to make sure I understand your comment in the context that it was intended.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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So looking around at the 31 other teams to come up with a fair and objective conclusion before accusing the Browns,the only "pro team you *care* about" of "failure" is not a reasonable part of the equasion in the thought process?
I have read that a few times and to be honest, I don't understand your question.
That doesn't make sense.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Okay 
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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So looking around at the 31 other teams to come up with a fair and objective conclusion before accusing the Browns,the only "pro team you *care* about" of "failure" is not a reasonable part of the equasion in the thought process?
Peen, I think he means..."Is it not in your thought process to compare the Browns with the other 31 teams in the NFL before accusing them of failure?"
I think.
#gmstrong
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Do U think MenZa's stats in this thread are worth anything??? are they a GOOD USE OF STATS????
no
#gmstrong
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Hope is a good thing, maybe the only good thing and a truly good thing never dies.
Shawshank.
You stole that from Stephen King, didn't you? It's OK to quote the greats.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Highest Completion Percentage, Career (1,500 attempts)
65.68
Kurt Warner, St. Louis,
1998-2003; N.Y. Giants, 2004; Arizona, 2005 (2,340-1,537)
65.02
Marc Bulger, St. Louis,
2002-05 (1,518-987)
64.37
Daunte Culpepper, Minnesota, 1999-2005 (2,607-1,678)
According to "stats" these are the three most accurate passers for a year of any NFL QB's.
Wow, you proved me wrong.  Way to list 3 Pro-Bowl QB's.
Join reality, if someone puts up good stats they aren't a loser.
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I am in the "may the best QB play" camp.
I have not seen Chud's new offense to make an assessment as to which QB should play.
It is a waste of time trying to figure out who will be the QB. Maybe it's a good thing to rial up Diam, Pit, Verse et al, but other than pulling the chain in a good natured way, it serves no purpose.
We should have a better idea after a couple of preseason games.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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How many times U seen me use my saying when someone used stats correctly on here (and thats a VERY VERY RARE ACCURENCE)???
How many times has Charlie Wies been correct on evaluating his Notre Dame players success at the NFL level?
Doesn't seem to stop you from pretending he's the greatest talent evaluator ever.
But then again, you're the person that thinks stats are for losers. Is that what you told your teacher when you continually received tests that had 65% written on them.
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I HATE Notre Dame... but I think Charlie knows what it takes to be a NFL QB.
<><
#gmstrong
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My only wish is for the best man to win. I don't want someone given the job. The guy who's going to win us the most games will play. That's all you could want.
![[Linked Image from pic18.picturetrail.com]](http://pic18.picturetrail.com/VOL905/3216203/6567769/349897772.jpg) "The Browns' defense is kicking mucho dupa."
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you're the person that thinks stats are for losers. Is that what you told your teacher when you continually received tests that had 65% written on them.
I didn't give a crap about my teachers ... I used that one on the people who actually counted .. MY PARENTS .... *LOL* ..
STATS ARE STILL FOR LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .....
P ... ya, thats what i thought .. what about the answers to the other two questions ... i know what they are .. so does everyone else .. so its OK, go ahead and answer them ... 
the way stats are used on this board 99.9% of the time is PITIFUL .... hence why i cam eup with the very simplistic phrase that cuts through all the BS and saves me a bunch of time ... I mean saying ....
STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!! .. takes alot less time than showing why EVERY SINGLE STAT posted on this board is basically useless ...
tell u what .. I'll make it simple for U .. next time u see a good use of stats ... send me a pm and let me know .. 
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I have a feeling that something is going to go down with Atlanta before the season starts.
I think Atlanta will be cutting ties with Vick before the season. He is being accused of some very bad stuff, and even if he didn't do some of it, he is involved somehow.
If we move someone, I hope it's Anderson. The more I think about it, the more I want Frye on this team...possibly as a starter this year and a backup for the next several years. I would not at all feel bad if Frye had to come in for a few games a year and take over. I just like his guts and determination over Anderson's better skill set.
The problem is Frye played pretty decent against Atlanta last year. I bet they'd want him over DA.
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Quote:
How many times % wise have u seen STATS used properly???
How many times U seen me use my saying when someone used stats correctly on here (and thats a VERY VERY RARE ACCURENCE)???
Sorry, Ididn't think you really cared. 
% wise? very little. Stats can't always stand on their own and many people think they can.
One stat I think does is Anderson's college stats. He was something like 50% comp. and 50 some ints. I don't need to see too many games to make me think that those kind of stats don't lie. I don't care how many times he was pressured, sacked, or hurried. Those type of numbers are so bad they speak for themselves in my opinion. Did I mention I think Anderson is a complete stiff? Maybe I'll refer to him for now on as #3.
I never ever saw you say anything about stats except they are for losers. To be honest it probably went right over my head. My whole reply on the stats thing isn't aimed at you (you are just the one to make the saying popular) but rather when stats are used to support an arguement we see your saying coming out of everywhere.  Sure stats can be misused and made to fit someones arguement but IMO they are needed to re-enforce arguements at times.
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If that was reported, I never saw it anywhere...that came from the "inside".
[color:"white"]
Go Browns
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tell u what .. I'll make it simple for U .. next time u see a good use of stats ... send me a pm and let me know ..
No need to. Everytime I use them I'm right. 
#gmstrong
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If Jacksonville was so hot after Frye, why didn't they take Quinn? 
Dont know, interesting question...
Just goes to show how different teams can evaluate players MUCH differently.
Believe it or not, there's some teams out there that think Quinn isnt going to live up to the hype.
And there's some teams out there that think they can grab a raw guy like Frye and coach him up and catch lightning in a bottle.
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Go Browns
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And some teams would rather give up a late round pick over spending a first on a QB. That's the reality I want to believe.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Hope is a good thing, maybe the only good thing and a truly good thing never dies.
Shawshank.
You stole that from Stephen King, didn't you? It's OK to quote the greats.
Yes Lamp, I did, guilty as charged!
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Diam you know I agree with you that stats don't tell the whole story, but I have to disagree with you on this: Quote:
why was BQ taken in rnd 1 and Frye in Rnd 3
Why was Ryan Leaf and Akili Smith taken in the first round??? How about that great first rounder named Mike Phipps (who was it we traded to move up and get him again ) What round was Brian Sipe drafted in again?
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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if someone puts up good stats they aren't a loser
Good stats?
"Good stats" would be a "a full and comprehensive" set of stats that completly break down all of the factors of an entire offense to get an accurate gauge of how the supporting cast and oponents factor into a QB's overall performance.
Not strictly a "few" QB stats that in no way accurately describe the outcome of a QB's stats alone. I'll try breaking it down just a little more,because obviously you're dismissing reality.
Desperation passes - IF your team is down by 14 with four minutes to go in the game,shouldn't a QB be taking "gambles" and making throws that he wouldn't ordinarily make to do his best to try to give his team an oppertunity to win the game? Of course he should. And while I don't have a statistical breakdown of this stat. I do know that Quinn faced such situation MANY times because his D gave up a lot of points in several games. I have no idea of the number of times Charlie was. But it would be a very telling factor that can scew the numbers your tossing around a great deal. Shouldn't we know how many times each QB was in this situation and how many passes were thrown by each QB in such situation? Wouldn't that be a factor in gauging the "few stats" you presented?
In such a scenario,his int's and passing percentage may be greatly effected by this situation. But a GOOD QB puts his team first and his "personal stats be damned" if he's a team player. This can greatly effect the stats you have presented.
The OL.- If a QB has a poor OL that can not provide him a pocket,it creates a situation where he must scramble and in many cases simply throw the ball away to prevent a sack. Once again,this QB puts his "personal stats" secondary to the team. Yet another factor that is in no way reflected in your comparison of the two QB's.
Injuries- If a QB is in a situation where his primary or secondary WR's are injured,he has inferior targets with inferior speed and ability to throw to. His back up WR's do not often times have the speed to gain seperation. Now his targets are limited and often times have more drops than his primary WR's would have. How many games was this a factor for each of these QB's? And OL injuries? How many games did each one play with a compromised OL that compromised their protection that may have helped scew your numbers?
Dropped passes- How many "drops" did each QB have on their respective teams? The percentages you gave are only off by very small margins. If this one stat varies widely,it will scew the numbers you gave.
Pocket time- How much average time did each QB have in the pocket per average? This is a HUGE determining factor in their ability to make their reads and progressions.
Sacks and Hurries- Very similar as the last point.A QB consistantly under pressure,will not have the same oppertunity and luxury of one who is not consistantly under pressure.
Strength of schedule- Now you've thrown out the name of "some oponents" that Quinn faced. But you have not broken down the actual strength of each schedule. Playing a much harder "schedule" with overall better oponents (especially oponents D rankings,gives you a very good indication of why these stats of each QB may vary the way they do.
RB's recieving catches- If one of these QB's had a RB who had good recieving capability,and was untilized in that aspect,it gave that QB a more reliable dump off man to help improve his "personal stats".
I could go on and on.
But the stats you've given are in no way an accurate comparison because you have not given ANY indication of the performance,ability nor the oponents they faced.
You have given very basic stats that do not break down the other team players nor injuries,nor oponents that may have GREATLY helped impact the stats you gave.
If you want the few stats you gave to carry ANY weight,you must give ALL the stats that have bearing on a QB's overall performance.
You have not done that. So no,the stats you've tossed out mean VERY little. You want to make a point? Fine. Present a "comprehensive" set of stats that include their respective offenses and scedules.
Don't just toss out a few that suit your purpose and dismiss ALL of the contributing factors that greatly factor into the few you gave. Or there's pretty much zero meaning in the ones you gave.
It's that simple. The QB is one man of an eleven guys on the O. To neglect to take a complete statistal look at the entire O of each QB,it mans basicly nothing.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
the way stats are used on this board 99.9% of the time is PITIFUL .... hence why i cam eup with the very simplistic phrase that cuts through all the BS and saves me a bunch of time ... I mean saying ....
STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!! .. takes alot less time than showing why EVERY SINGLE STAT posted on this board is basically useless
Tell me about Diam! I just went through at least a large portion of doing that very thing. It was very time consuming,tedious and a MAJOR PAIN IN THE ASS just for people who can't seem to grasp a BASIC concept of why and how to use stats in the proper way to put forth a compehensive and complete way to actually use stats to present a legitimate point.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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It's called common sense, Peen. If the Browns are in the exact situation as every other team in the league, how can you judge them a "failure" for being in the exact same situation. That makes absolutely no sense no matter if you care about other teams or not.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Hope is a good thing, maybe the only good thing and a truly good thing never dies.
Shawshank.
You stole that from Stephen King, didn't you? It's OK to quote the greats.
Yes Lamp, I did, guilty as charged!
Oh well, at least someone's reading your posts... they don't read mine.
gmstrong -----------------
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It's called common sense, Peen. If the Browns are in the exact situation as every other team in the league, how can you judge them a "failure" for being in the exact same situation. That makes absolutely no sense no matter if you care about other teams or not.
Sure it does....as I said, I don't care about the other teams.
Just because the other teams fail doesn't mitigate the fact we haven't signed anyone.
I don't know how many weeks it has been since we drafted these guys, but it has been long enough to get them signed.
Look....I understand the process, and as long as the guys get in on time...all is good.... but it is the same crap every year.....teams dink around and never really address the process until they can march their coach out there talking about guys falling way behind.
Who the heck do they think they are fooling?? The delay isn't from the players side. You don't think those players and agents wouldn't like their bonus', and be able to bill for services as soon as possible?
It's like one of us holding a winning lotto ticket, then sticking it in a drawer for 2-3 months before cashing it in........sure...that's going to happen. lol
I am positive Joe and Brady would have been more than happy to sign and collect their cash a month or two ago if the team was willing to sign them.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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The waiting isn't on the players' sides? Pit, no offense, but I don't think you really do understand as you say. Are you SERIOUSLY implying that no agent delays in order to get more money? C'mon, you're MUCH smarter than that. Every other team DOES affect whether or not we sign. Unless, of course, you are implying that the Browns should just break the bank, sign everyone for the max amount each agent is asking for, and screw the future up and land the team in salary cap hell......of course that wouldn't exactly be a success. That would actually be a....failure.
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Conversely, I have little doubt that Joe, Brady, their agents or you or myself would have any problem waiting a couple of extra weeks if I thought that I had a high probability of being able to get an additional $250,000-$500,000 or so from waiting.
The leverage of the player & agent increases as they get closer to camp and that is a mighty big chunk of change for such a short timeframe.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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The leverage of the player & agent increases as they get closer to camp
That right there is the key phrase... They know that as they get closer thier position strengthens,, why in heavens name would they agree to ANY deal in Early July when they are sure of a better deal the closer it gets to the first day of camp,
This isn't a matter of failure or success Peen,, it's just business at it's finest!
It's the free enterprise system we cherish so much.... As much as I want them signed and in camp, I also understand some of the economics of the situation.
Looking at it another way, what if Quinn and Thomas and Wright were all signed say,,,,July 1st.
That could mean one of two things:
1. Savage is a miracle worker and one hell of a talker to have talked these guys and thier agents into signing so darn early.
Or, knowing what we know for SURE that the closer we get to camp, the better the deal tends to get..
2. Savage Overpaid them to end it sooner.
Which is smarter?
I know I know,, it's a "catch-22", but it's the way it works.
Now you know the reason I'm not upset or even concerned about no signings..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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After reading all this mess..what point are U guys trying to make?
I don't see much really being said that determines anything right now.
Quinn is here...he may play this season or he may not.
Once more ..bottom line...it's going to come down to him vs Frye for the starter spot sooner or later..
I don't need to look at stats or past college games to know what the outcome is gonna be.
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You are right. It will come down to Frye and Quinn. Frye has some experience and Quinn has more upside with his physical abilities. Either way we should be better then last year.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
After reading all this mess..what point are U guys trying to make?
I'm thinking you didn't read this thread very closely or you wouldn't have thought it was me thinking about stats... unless you were just clicking and didn't say so? hmm,, I bet that's it!
Quote:
I don't need to look at stats or past college games to know what the outcome is gonna be.
I agree,,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No I was just clicking behind U..
But the thread isn't going in a specific direction..
It's Quinn vs Frye..
Does Frye have enough talent to prevent BQ from overtaking him?
I seriously doubt it.
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Ahh who knows,, but we are about 8 days from the start of the determination process,,,,, 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Perhaps this is a dumb questions, but why does anyone care who starts..
I mean seriously, does it really matter. Think about it, if we go all the way though camp and Dorsey turns out to be the best QB we have,, why would anyone be upset. I mean if he's the best we got, then so be it.
Before you all go off on me, NO, I don't think that Dorsey is the best option.. Don't come back and say I said so,,,,
But honestly, and I've been saying this for a while,, I don't care who our starters are at any position.. as long as whoever it is is the best we have available to us.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Perhaps this is a dumb questions, but why does anyone care who starts..
I mean seriously, does it really matter.
My only concern about "who starts" is that I would like to see them give our OL a little time to gel as a unit before they throw Brady in there for fear the pressure will cause the possibility of developing bad habits.
I'd just like to see them wait untill the OL can give him a faily consistant pocket and give Lewis some holes. If we can run the ball descent and protect Brady before they start him,I think it will help his devevopment a great deal and create a lot less chance he'll become gunshy. Throwing a rookie to the wolves from day one can really create some problems often times IMO. I'd like to see them reduce the odds of that happening.
Other than that,I really don't care.
JMHO
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
Quote:
Good stats?
"Good stats" would be a "a full and comprehensive" set of stats that completly break down all of the factors of an entire offense to get an accurate gauge of how the supporting cast and oponents factor into a QB's overall performance.
That entire post is all well and good and very well said.
Unfortunatley, you are wasting your time.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,408
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,408 |
Quote:
Conversely, I have little doubt that Joe, Brady, their agents or you or myself would have any problem waiting a couple of extra weeks if I thought that I had a high probability of being able to get an additional $250,000-$500,000 or so from waiting.
The leverage of the player & agent increases as they get closer to camp and that is a mighty big chunk of change for such a short timeframe.
I don't deny there is some truth in that....however...it is by far more important for teams to string things out....these guys want to play...they have never been through the process before...then they hear about getting behind.
If the Browns offered up at the beginning what these guys finally sign for, I doubt holdouts would happen very much.
These guys(players and agents) know the worth...and so does the team.
Just quit dorking around and get it done.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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