DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kizer

Watson is coulda, maybe shoulda....botomline DIDN'T...throwing Kizer under bus after four games- he still has potential, he has body for sure, he's got the brain- wonder if it processes quick enough, and he has the want to...other HUGE positive is he's 21 and should/could easily be a JR in college.....he WANTED this, now he's got it AND it's too much for him NOW....I hope he improves....GO Browns!!!!

I just want to say that I think it is waaaayyy too soon to be thinking about talking about giving up on Kizer.

RE:Watson

In this forum there were several threads where Watson/QB evaluation came up. And whenever this 'report' of Watson arm strength being 49 mph came up there were several posters that challenged and provided factually basis of that number being bunk.

I'm only commenting since you brought it up maybe the lesson learned here is that not all draft media opinion can/should be accepted as fact AND don't ignore the actual facts that counter popular draft media groupthink.

The same ones who want to give up on Kizer are the same ones who thought Weeden and Manziel were "franchise" qbs.
So take it for what it's worth

Right now I suspect Weeden's numbers may be better. I think Hogan's are too.

Even if wrong, play differently this Sunday. Appoint a new OC for the first and third quarters.
The only performances not to be evaluated and critiqued seem to be our DC and HC. They are not playing according to outcomes. Cut this D loose. Let us see whites under our hood.

If these guys came out a year earlier and made themselves eligible for the 16 draft ...

Watson was the clear cut #1 overall pick and a sure fire franchise qb ...
Kizer was either the #2 or #3 overall pick ... all the tools and then some ...

No clue if Mahomes would have even been drafted ... I'd never heard of him but that don't mean diddly ... i have NO CLUE if or where he would have went ....

Mitch hadn't played yet so he wouldn't have come out .. if he did with zero playing time he'd of prolly signed a FA contract in the cfl or the arena league ... *L* ...

Then they played the 16 season and we all saw what happend in the 17 draft .... MY, HOW THINGS CHANGE ... a lot like this year ...

I was not high at all on Watson ... to many bad decisions and not quite good enough accuracy for my tastes .... i said draft day he has by far the best chance to suceed early because his skill set fit perfectly for the team he went too ...

The one thing i loved about Watson even with all of his negatives was that he was a WINNER .. the bigger the moment in the biggest of games the better he played ... and he went to a team that was ready to win ... and I'm not sure there were any better teams he could have went to as far as skill set was concerned ...

They have a bad OL .... he runs as good as there is ... his legs won them the game a few weeks ago on TV ... he had the awesome 49 yard td run and then he had the long run on 3rd and forever to put them in fg range .... he was their O that night and it was his legs ...

They have Hopkins and Watson can get it in the zip code .... i think Hop all ready has better numbers than he did all year last year ... they also have Miller at RB and now Fuller back at WR and a couple decent TE's along with what should have been one of the best D's in football ...

Watson is poised, great runner and can get the ball close ... he's got some accuracy and decision making issues ... but he's with a team he doesn't have to do much on when looking at the paper ... the D isn't playing as well it should ... its still playing at a pretty high level but its not near as dominating as most thought it would be with the return of JJ ...

Its way to early but so far Watson is playing pretty darn good ... hes a lot of fun to watch ... kinda sucks ... i like the kid but i have a hard time rooting against our draft picks ... plus O'Briens a POS in my book ....

Oh well ... if they win I'll be happy for him ... hes a good kid ...

PFF: Supporting cast is so important to an NFL QB

https://twitter.com/SInow/status/915964048214073344

we have a cast, i dunno if they do much supporting though.

A lot of them move like they're in a cast....

Walk like a skunk, talk like a skunk, smell like a skunk. Guess what that makes him?

He is really stinking up field. Period

Just curious ... he's surrounded by skunks ... how do u determine how much of the stench is his? ...

Haha stop playing. He is absolutely surrounded by skunks.

But he is still bringing a funk to the field in his own right.

I would've like to see Leslie and Hall and Williams as our top 3

I don't see how this would have helped anything.

Can they be any worse than Britt, Louis, Higgins?

What's that word I keep reading on this thread... Oh yeah potential. I think they have more potential

Replacing crap with crap doesn't do anything.

I don't think Leslie is crap at all...hmm interesting you think he is

He was cut, signed by no one for several weeks, didn't play much after he was re-signed, and then injured. I think we are overrating one of our own guys.

You laugh at people for talking about potential regarding our QBs, but then you turn around and want to give more playing time to Leslie.

yup sure would

and just to be clear buddy. I don't recall laughing at anybody. just threw a word out there I keep reading. if it's good for the QB debate, then it is good for the WR's.

This was a very enjoyable read.
Welcome to the board!

If they were a jock strap our team would have alot of hernias and groin pulls...

You can improve accuracy far more than you can arm strength.

Gotcha, chief. Yes, it does go both ways. Leslie has a lot of potential.

You can improve completion percentage but as far as accuracy goes at this stage a QB is who he is.

Did you think Kizer lacked accuracy as a prospect?

I'm only asking because it will help you answer your own question.

Personally, I think Kizer's accuracy is good enough. He's not great but its not like he's a Hackenberg or (Josh Allen).

What Kizer lacks with average accuracy he imho more then makes up with elite arm talent and athleticism.

To me its crazy to even think about having the conversation about whether or not Kizer is a duck.
He shouldn't even be playing right now...much less playing for a team without WRs and no run game.

Its tough right now, but give him time. At the time I thought Brock should have played to start this season and everything that is going on right now is exactly why.

I am probably in the tiniest minority but I like that Kizer hasn't been babied. He is running an NFL offense. He isn't running it well but he is running it. I believe it will pay off for him in the long run as his ability to run, combines with an improving pocket presense and it combines with a better grasp of reading defenses both pre and post snap.

The team is failing Kizer right now, its not kizer failing the team. We need receivers and apparently a new Running back.

I've always felt the QB - franchise relationship is a symbiotic cycle. During the 1st 3 years the entire franchise needs to sacrifice and do everything to support the QB and IF the QB is good enough they will carry the franchise from then on. But during that 1st 3 years the QB needs support from the OL, Receivers, run game, coaches, system etc.

If Kizer isn't broken by this I agree that he'll be better for it because its only going to get better from here.

I disagree. Fixing a qb's mechanics goes a long way in improving his accuracy.

I do think it was risky to start Kizer right away because I was afraid he would resort to some of his older mechanics in the heat of the fire.

Next off season will be critical for Kizer.

I think he really needs to keep that lead foot from opening up so much, especially on throws to his left.

I also think he needs to work on his touch. Throwing the ball over a tall obstacle and dropping into some type of container can help w/that.

I think it is much too early to make any long-term evaluations on the kid.

I think Kizer has NFL starter level accuracy. For me that discussion is really a non-issue but there certainly 2 schools of thought on accuracy. I'm with the side that believes that by the time a QB makes it to the NFL there accuracy is already set.

I certainly agree that a QB can improve their accuracy and ball placement with improved footwork, knowledge of the play, knowing exactly where the ball should be placed on a given play to a given receiver in a given situation with repetition and coaching.

But imho a guy like Hackenberg isn't going to improve his accuracy by any meaningful measure.

Back to Kizer.
I agree he has a lot of work to do.
If I had to pick 1 area for him to improve is getting the ball out quicker from a decision making stand point.

I believe poor feet can be fixed if the guy plays with balance and that will improve accuracy more than anything else. Upper body mechanics, imho just never really improves that much. So if he is setting and aiming his feet and still having issues, its a major red flag.

That thing he does where he throws his right leg out to the right is causing him accuracy problems still. One can think that the leg kick is after the throw, in the follow through, but the kick starts sooner than that. And the instant it starts it causes his left hip to open up too soon, effecting his accuracy.

When he kicks out but still throws an accurate ball it is because he muscles up, overcoming it with upper body and arm strength. But he can't live on that and, in fact, isn't able to correct himself consistently nor often now.

The other thing that happens with that leg kick is it causes him to lose velocity. Notice how many of his throws are low, at the receiver's feet.

When I see a badly inaccurate or low throw I rewind my DVR to check that leg kick. Most often it will be found that his leg kicks outside to the right. He is getting better though. He used to kick it so far out and high that it looked like he might kick a teammate in the ass. That kick is tamed a lot currently but it still goes out to the right. It doesn't take much to cause poor accuracy and low throws.

I don't think he should have started until he fixed that at least. He's got enough to think about without also thinking about correcting an ingrained habit every throw. But we're going to have to live with it as he does. I do want to see it improve quickly.

You are wrong about my intentions. I am simply saying that I think it is easier to fix accuracy issues than it is to improve arm strength. I am not alone in that position and will post articles if you insist.

I don't really agree w/your comment about upper body mechanics. There are many examples of guys who have had their upper body mechanics improved. A couple of glaring examples are Aaron Rodgers and our own Kevin Hogan.

There are a ton of drills you can do to help mechanics. Heck, I used to have my QBs throw passes w/their throwing shoulder close to the fence in order to ensure that they don't get any part of their shoulder, arm, wrist, hand too far away from their body.

I think you can improve both those things MARGINALLY once they reach the nfl ... at least thats what history has shown ...

Please let me know who the qb's are that came into the nfl with accuracy issues and have improved and become more accurate qb's ... not being an argumentative ass, would seriously like to know ... i could very well be missing some ...

Same wth u on the arm strength thing tabber ... love to see the list ot qb's that came in with questionable arm strength and improved it to the point where it was no longer a question ...

Can u improve those things at this level .... sure .... but IMO VERY MINIMALLY ...

feet placement, shoulder level, hips open or closed, elbow and arm path all can be reasons for accuracy problems and IMO all can be addressed for improved accuracy.

In Kizer's case i agree ... it could be POSSIBLE ...

Now please ... the list of guy(s) its actually happend too ..