DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Would any other NFL team not fire a 1-19 coach ?

Sure. Because if we are 3-1 people would be hyped Kizer might finally be the answer at QB. I get that. I'd still submit that people would be talking about the running game if it was still an issue. Maybe the tone would change more toward Crowell playing poorly than Hue's playcalling but I believe it would be discussed frequently. But I wouldn't know about that feeling of a Browns team off to a fast start to know for sure.

Well....there we have it. The man has spoken:


https://twitter.com/KenCarman/status/916008105506349056

I guess it's time to put a bow on this topic and move on to the next one.

The only group of people with more excuses for failures than Politicians are the members of this Board ! lol

Pretty much this. If Hue was perfect in his play-calling, I don't think we'd be 4-0 at this point. That being said, he's had some hiccups with time management, run vs pass balance, and just "getting too cute" at times.

I just like like Kiser starting when he is not performing well and didn't earn it IMHO. We should be running the ball more to make things easier but Kiser keeps turning the ball over so much that teams are getting points up on us to the point we have to score fast to catch up or they will grind the clock down so we CAN'T run it because then we grind the clock down too and end up helping the other team. Besides our run game seems to be very sporadic and unreliable atm. I think the run game will improve by about mid season when the o-line gels a bit more.

We don't have ANY wr worth a darn on this team. NONE. Hue has said he prefers big physical WRs. He has yet to get what he has asked for. That being said has there really been anyone we could actually get. I mean no real FA WR will want to jump into our QB mess. The best players of this past draft were clearly defensive players. You have to hope that in this upcoming draft they plan to draft offensive talent. If we don't draft some playmakers next draft then you can go apes on them.

Right now we just have to accept this year is Kiser's shot to keep a job. I don't think he does. I think playing him is just our excuse to tank and get a real QB next draft without burning all our pics to get him. The next draft will hold the keys to if this team turns things around or if it burns to the ground.

I agree it comes down to players executing .... But it cuts both ways. If the OC is consistently calling plays that can't or aren't executed, does he need to examine the playbook ? If we never commit to the run in earnest, and then struggle to run the ball, is that because we don't have the talent or because we haven't schemed well enough??

I wasn't Shanny's biggest fan but his zone blocking run scheme was effective. I'd love to see something like that now ... Notwithstanding that we're out of the shotgun so much.

And people solely blaming the front office for 1-19 are as equally clueless.

Oh I think Hue is blameless for the 1-19 and I do believe that the FO is responsible for the 1-19 after all that was/is their plan and they are working it.

We clearly are a team tanking for draft picks. Thats the bad news the good news is this should be the last season we see them do this.

But anyone looking at the roster and how its put together should have long ago reached this conclusion, how could anyone not?

All the crying over how bad Crow is playing misses on several points IMO.

Teams are loading the box and daring Kiser to beat them in the air, and so far he is rolling snake eyes. When he actually shows teams he can beat them deep and understands how to get to is underneath stuff instead of locking on his primary will function better as an offense.

This isn't rocket science folks teams are loading up to stop Crow and they will continue to do so until we prove we can beat them other ways its just that simple they have no respect for Kizer yet. Only he can change that.

Stay the course. Context is all wrong. Nobody gutted an already poor roster like we did. Hopefully start to see improvement this weekend.

Go Browns.

Who are those people?

I see a lot of posts about Hue's play calling, clock management, run/pass distribution, lack of an OC, etc........but, I don't see many talking about the roster in a negative way.

Who took the job when offered , by one of the worst owners ( to date ) in the NFL ? Who took the job knowing the FO had the final say on the 53 ? Who think's he can multi task ( head and OC ) With the this young developmental squad ? How about assembling the rest of the Coaching staff .The list can go on , but you get my drift ..

For the record , I am not a fire Hue guy .. I too think that the FO has a very large responsibility here ..

For the record I do not consider myself Clueless ~ lol

Because of how Haslam has dealt with OUR organization in the past ( since he assuumed ownership ) , now dictates the actions he will take now .. We are really handicapped because of his Ownership .. Pull another Monday morning Massacre and that will set us back another 10 years ..we have to stay the course and consistently make tweaks in the ORG.. And pray real hard for half ass decent Talent evaluation in the Draft ..

I'm all done now .

There has been an ongoing thread dedicated to questioning the moves by the FO all off season and ongoing through 4 games of the regular season. Criticism or analysis of the FO is there. . . this is about the HC. The two are not mutually exclusive discussions as many have pointed out - but to this thread is primarily HC. That thread is primarily FO.

More agenda spewing by Mr Objectivity. I cannot recall a single poster on this board claiming that the roster is fine as-is and that the FO is beyond culpability.

Not to mention that EVERY EXAMPLE he gave above regarding criticism of Hue is spot on and earned by Hue. None of which is grounds for firing at this point.

The players need to execute better...the coaches need to coach better and find a way to better utilize the strengths of the players they have...and the FO needs to acquire better talent. Extraordinarily simple.

Anyone with an ounce of objectivity sees that and knows that.

Normally I see things with a similar perspective as you do Tab - but we are lacking in some crucial areas..... I do not see young and exciting talent at
- WR (it's woeful)
- CB (I think we are a true #1 away from being 'ok')
and I think we are chronically thin at
- DE (proof of that with the lack of pressure with Garrett out)
- Safety (Peppers is exciting but nothing yet - Kindred is playing above where I expected, but behind those two we have nothing).
- LB (Collins, SChobert and Kirksey are more than servicable, but the cupboard is bare after them... and Collins has been disappointing)

To me that reads like a roster in need of plenty of help -- and that's without the huge question mark at QB and our struggles to run the ball.

I am a fire nobody guy.

That thread is by one poster. And in that thread, a bunch of people throw fits when that one poster questions the moves of the FO.

Many of those same people then get upset if a few of defend Hue.

Sounds hypocritical to me.

I read the FO thread differently. I see one poster repeating the same thing endlessly regardless of how in depth that topic is discussed and hashed out. . . . but I see generally everyone having a pretty balanced opinion of the FO ... I see no-one giving them a free pass. What I see is people "defending" the FO in the face of purely negative posting by a small number of posters ... a prime example would be the topic of Pryor leaving. Most / many don't blame Pryor and they don't blame the FO ... but a few think it's 100% the fault of the FO, I think in the face of that line of debate posters say things that probably sound more pro-front office than they truly feel overall. But people read it and take it the way they see it or want to see it.

We disagree on the perceptions. No big deal.

But.........I am going to continue to defend Hue when people unfairly criticize him.

It's real easy for people to use certain phrases when they actually don't have a clue. We hear them all the time:

He is not a good play caller.

My 10 year old daughter can predict the plays.

He gets too cute.

He runs too much.

He passes too much.

He is not developing talent.

He is misusing our talent.

He's in over his head.

He's too predictable.

He plays not to lose.

He gambles too much.

I've been reading comments like these for years. People pretending to know more than what they really do.

All I know is that no one in the Brown's organization [other than maybe Al Saunders] has more respect around the NFL than Hue does!

Vers, I think we all want to like Hue...But he's making it really hard

The brain farts on end of 2nd half from our coaching staff are really making it hard, believe me.. Its not once, nor twice that it happens..

I also don't like the inconsistencies on the team identity...

If you want a bend but don't break D, we must have a potent O.

We need a consistent identity, and we need to find the pieces to build that identity.

You can't have a weak O with the D giving so much cushion do the Wrs and playing not to give to many points..

We could have fit the team identity to the talent, but we chose to do the opposite, so the least I expect is for that identity to be clear, which is something that is not....

Also worries me that Sachi is now living in his own reality... where we have good young players that are compensating for the lack of talent we refused to draft...

We don't have talent on offense. Get that through your head.

This is true.

But with that said - there are still things that Hue has done that deserve scrutiny and criticism. You have to agree with that or you are saying that since Hue took over Hue has been perfect? That statement is not true.

There might be a few posters calling for Hue's head but I think they are the minority .... most think Hue deserves to be a HC of the team when he's given an opportunity to succeed, with talent on the roster ... so far the deck has been so far stacked against him it's not funny.

I've been saying for a long time we need an OC - I made the comment preseason and you came back and argued that as an OC Hue made Kessler look serviceable which I took on board and agreed with at the time .... now I have changed my mind. Not for any other reason than if we have 1 guy who is dividing his time and efforts between HC - OC and QB developer .... he's not being as effective as he could be at one of those jobs with a 100% of his time .... This team needs too much in too many areas for Hue to be splitting his time like that. jmo, but no-one can tell me if Hue is a good HC with 50-60 or 70% of his time dedicated to those duties, that he wouldn't be BETTER with 100% of his time as HC.... and whatever % he's not spending as HC (50-40-30% ...) - I don't believe we couldn't find an OC who could dedicate 100% of his time and be at least as effective as a part time Hue... even if the OC takes direction from and basically runs Hue's offense.

I don't think Hue is perfect. In fact, when we hired him I talked about some of his issues when most were saying he was so great.

I think he has made some mistakes. However, I think all coaches make some mistakes. Even the great Bill Belichick.

I am just saying that I think the reason for our record and play have far less to do w/Hue than it does w/ownership and the FO.

I do not think that is actually debatable, even though people are not criticizing the latter two and are criticizing Hue.

I also called for Hue to have an OC a long time ago. Most thought it wasn't a big deal. Now they do. LOL I still think that he should have one, but I don't think it is as big of a deal as most are now making it out to be.

One last thing...........I appreciate how you are debating me. You disagree w/my takes, but you are respectful about it and it isn't personal. Much different from others who try to make everything personal. Debate is good. Disagreements can lead to good discussions and for us all to reconsider things. So, I think it is good that we can disagree w/out all the stupid personal attacks that some others rely on.

Like calling them "clueless" and telling them to "get that through your head"?

I don't think WR Is a easy fix.cause the Browns have struggled addressing that position since 1999.

The Browns LB have been woeful in covering
TES this year. They need a lb that can cover and run sideline to sideline

Ogbah has been disruptive. He's the only DE that made any plays this year
Orchard and Nassib dissappear every game
How many sacks do they have ? Qb pressures?

You can't have too many cbs in a passing league where nickel packages are more common than base packages

The Browns need a difference maker at RB.
Johnson is good checkdown option and can run good routes. But he's not a between the tackles runner.
Crowell runs like he has sandbags on his back.

Young talent means very little when you can't win.
Your 1 and 19 for a reason.
Starts at the top

theres a big difference between young talent and young players, they are mutually exclusive, our problem is we draft young players with no talent, which is why we are in this predicament...at best say we win 3-4 games in two year...no doubt in my mind, despite the lip service, someone is getting fired. I think the coaching staff is safer than the FO people, because The coaching staff have track records in this league as opposed to two guys who have never had anything to do with football operations. It baffles me to think that an NFL owner would experiment in a way as such. The team is a mess, but I'm much more willing to give Hue/WIlliams a bye provided we get a proven NFL talent evaluator.. We could have just read kipers mocks and done better than we have.

I think for me the biggest issue is the type of rebuild we did, we got rid of nfl caliber veterans and replaced them with young and inexperienced...if we were right up against the cap i would get that, but we aren't, so fix a little at a time if you are going to build through the draft and add on, not tear it all down and then you have an unwatchable product

i hope we keep this group together at least to start next year... They totally broke this team down to the studs.... We need to give it time to rebuild.. We we start off 0-4 next year the. I say move forward... I'm hoping we can get some friggin consistency... I don't know if they are the right people to get the job done but I do know if you keep blowing it up it ain't going to work

They made roster moves 3 times before kickoff game 1 against Pittsburgh

They made moves before the kickoff against, Indianapolis, and before the kickoff against Cincinnati.

They might not even keep this team together through the bye week, much less next year.

----- -----

But Nothing is hurting this team quite like the Offensive playcalling,

specifically abandoning a traditional offense in favor of 3-4 wides.

I suggest we Bring Back Mike Pettine! as an offensive coordinator, and play-caller.

Bring Back Mike Pettine!

Think about that....the best we can hope for is to take 2 seasons for a win count that would be horrible for 1 season.

1999 we won 2 games...

I'd say we have improved the WR in the past, yet don't retain players that can make a difference. Look at the Tayor Gabriel, Travis Benjamin, Terrelle Pryor situations. Had we been able to appeal to these guys, the WR situation wouldn't be as bad. Yes, size would be lacking a little, but say what you want, each has decent hands and can obtain separation.

I agree with the disappearance of guys like Orchard and Nassib, yet LB performance is strongly linked to DL doing their job effectively by picking up those extra blocks from the offense and filling gaps.

With the current RB situation, I agree that Crow falls down too easily and lacks vision. The guy simply crumbles at the point of contact. With Duke, I doubt Jackson has given him the opportunity to tote the ball much. I think that a change may be in order to see if he can be a difference. We know he has vision and play making ability. Either play Duke or Dayes, one way or another there needs to be a change in the running department to help out Kiser. The biggest frustration is how we hear Hue state that we need to run the ball more each week and he doesn't.

We cut Gabriel ...

Pressure is mounting on Browns
Posted by Mike Florio on October 8, 2017, 9:55 AM EDT

Getty Images
A history of impatience with coaches, General Managers, and team presidents has caused Browns owner Jimmy Haslam to swing the other way when it comes to the current configuration of the football operation. With the team at 1-19 since 2016 and in grave danger of falling to 1-20 against the supposedly tanking Jets on Sunday, the pressure is mounting on the entire organization.

As one league source predicted earlier this week, a loss today to the Jets could result in major changes of some sort.

It’s unclear what those changes would be, especially with the bye still three weeks away, after games against the Texans in Houston, the Titans at home, and the Vikings in London.

Yes, London. The place where multiple NFL coaches have gone to get fired. Even if no changes are made following a loss today, an 0-8 start (1-23 since last year) capped by a nationally-televised loss in England could be the last straw for coach Hue Jackson. If the last straw even lasts that long.

If change becomes before then, it could happen elsewhere in the organization, like what the Lions did two years ago when firing G.M. Martin Mayhew and keeping coach Jim Caldwell during the season. When executive V.P. of football operations Sashi Brown said this week that the team’s rebuild is still ongoing, the intended audience possibly wasn’t fans and media who dubbed him Captain Obvious but ownership, which has bought in to a Crock-Pot process but which as some point is going to want to lift the lid and try the veal.

Some in league circles have pointed to the Browns’ obsession with stockpiling draft picks as a way to create the perpetual perception that the best is yet to come, thereby avoiding accountability for current struggles. At some point, however, those picks need to become players who can perform in a league full of parity. The “sorry, but we have too many young players” routine won’t work for much longer, especially with young players on which they passed (like Deshaun Watson) tearing up the league almost instantly.

A win today would at a minimum delay what could be inevitable at this point. Those repeated claims of a lack of dysfunction between the coaching staff and the front office are becoming less believable, and they’re starting to give rise to an even bigger question: If the Browns are 1-19 with a coaching staff and front office that are on the same page, how bad would this team be if they weren’t?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/10/08/pressure-is-mounting-on-browns/

I understand the commitment I do. Follow through with the plan. But don't you agree this team is too young ?
Where's the vet qb to help mentor Kizer ?
Where's the wr to help mentor the 2nd year wrs?
I see very few young guys coming around
Kindred is playing well. Ogbah is getting better each game
Coley is being disruptive
Devalve has been hit miss
But the others arent stepping up

Not trying to argue with you here, but you've said this for years yet we still suck at the WR position. It seems that every regime since 1999 hasn't gotten the memo.

Yes, the Detroit Lions, who have just one playoff win in over 50 years.