DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How Do You Measure Success?

The board seems to be split into 3 groups: blame Hue, blame the FO, or blame everyone. The season has not started out the way anyone was hoping or envisioning. It's not the losses. It's the way the Browns have lost. It's who they've lost to.

Regardless of where the blame is getting assigned, I would say most, better than 50%, are fine with riding this out and not firing anyone. But how do we know if the Browns are on the right track? How do we measure the success of this new regime? Anyone who works knows that you set goals and you are measured against those goals. This is how you know if you are successful or not.

How do we measure where we are and if there is progress being made?

I'm hoping this doesn't devolve into a pissing match. Or people taking sides. Or posters throwing insults towards each other. I'm genuinely interested in what people see as those measurements of success. I've thought about it and I don't have a clue. My emotional, fan side, simply doesn't see any progress. You watch other teams around the league, and they just seem so far ahead of the Browns in terms of being competitive. The Rams have the second youngest roster in the league. They are competitive. New coach, new system. No excuses. No "it will take time." They just field a competitive football team every Sunday. Whereas the Browns use the youngest roster marker as a reason for the losing.

So how do we measure if we are being successful or heading for success?

Like last year, we were competitive in most games. That was a so called tanking season. For me, we're supposed to be more competitive this season, and IMO we're on a path of regression.

As far as blame, no one has said the most obvious thing... a lot of parties are to blame. Hue is to blame, the FO is to blame, the players are to blame and it doesn't get more simpler than that. They've all dipped and did something that hurt/is hurting us. I can state some simple, obvious reasons:

The FO - we threw a lot of hope on COrey Coleman and Kenny Britt, and that hope has lead to the worse WR group in the NFL. Someone posted stats regarding our WR core, and it's putrid.

Hue, clock management is horrible. There's a lot of times Kizer is hurried and it appears Hue is arguing with a ref, for one example, and not getting a call in. Some other OC related calls are at times, questionable.

Players, we're just lacking so much talent and experience with a group so young.


I said along, the talent and depth is weak and Hue has made bad decisions and needs an OC.

Regardless who is to blame, I have a hard time seeing us win this year when I had my initial prediction pegged so embarrassingly high.

All JMO of course!

After last week, it really looks like the wheels are coming off. I hope I'm wrong. It will be interesting to see what happens if we string together some horrid performances like that.

obviously IMO,

well for me, big picture is wins and losses. That's how i measure the overall success of the team.

all the moral victories doesn't really matter come the end of the season, and we as fans are looking at the coaching staff and FO to evaluate them.

so every season we don't finish at least 8-8 is considered a failure.

but during the season, i tend to look at rankings and ther factors. did we improve in overall offense and defense? did we get worse?

for example, right now we are ranked 16th on defense. last year we finished 31st. so at the base without a further breakdown, we are better.

on offense we are ranked 26th. last year we finished 30th.

obviously we can play with stats and such as it doesn't tell the entire story, but it does provide context and a base to start debate with.

but again, just for me, none of that matters if we aren't improving in the one column that matters most: wins.

the Rams is a very good example you made simply because of the age factor. they are the 2nd youngest, and we are the youngest by far.

yet they have more wins than us. so if we look at that, then we can look at the two teams position by position, and it's clear that while the rams are young like us, they have far better players than us.

but then you have a very experienced and talented roster like the Giants, and they have just as many wins as us: zero.

are the giants judged by moral victories such as a better ranking? or is that team judged by wins and losses?

at the end of the day, wins is what keeps FO and coaching staffs together. all the other stuff at the end of the season is only feel good nonsense to make us feel better about being losers.

I don't measure four games in. Still in wait and see mode. Most of the team are first or second year players. They barely know how to play yet let alone win. While I did expect better, I'm not shocked by the poor play. I'm reserving judgement until after next year.

It's all about wins and losses.
The Browns have led the league in moral victorys since 1999.
Moral victories are candy canes and kool aid for homers
The NFL is built for teams to turn their misfortunes around in 2 3 year window
Every year the Browns select in the top 10 of the draft and yet still muck it
Up.
Year 2 of the Ivy League regime I see alot of the same problems that plagued the other regimes
Draft day blunders and signing free agents who are here to chase a dollar
Now throw in coordinators who are on their 43rd team it's a recipie for failure
This franchise has never had a football guy who ever turned a franchise around from cellar to the playoffs
1 and 19 is not progress
In 20 games so far Sashi and his front office is 1 19 overall and 0 9 vs the North
Its all about wins losses

I think it is too early to measure anything. Gotta give all involved at least one more year and hopefully two more years before we start making determinations that affect employment.

I think it is important to remember that we have completely purged the roster. Winning in year two was never part of the "plan."

I do think that continually creating more holes when you have a ton of holes is a horrid idea. My family is split between Brown's fans and Steelers' fans. My wife is from the Pittsburgh area. The Steeler side is overjoyed w/getting Haden. They are saying he is making a big difference in their D. It galls me that he is good enough for the first place team but not good enough for us.

My bottom line: I think we gotta give them time, but I have serious questions about "the plan." And I think it will be coaches who become sacrificial lambs, just as Horton and 4 others were last year.

Wins

Consolation prize are close games.

I understand that I seldom post but this list doesn't include blames no one (hand raised).

Here is what I see, and its not all bad either.

#1 This front office realizes that if their plan is to work and to have the best possible chance to succeed they need A- To pick as high in the draft as possible B- To accumulate as many draft picks as possible.

Hard to blame Hue for being undermined with a purpose, and hard to blame the FO for sticking to their plan.

People just have a hard time admitting to themselves that this is the plan. Once you do that things fall into place, they really do.

Lets look at this for what it is, and we can use what we know from the past.

In the past the Browns have won like 4-5 games only to be out of the running for a pick at the top of the draft where we got a really good player but not the blue chip player that comes from the very top of the draft.

This FO said we are going to stack the deck in a way that almost guarantees losing, with the purpose of improving draft position so that when the losing ends we go from bottom to top.

I do believe the plan is working, will work. I hate the losing part but I damned sure understand the long term implications if it works and like I said I believe it will work.

When I look at this roster I see a key ingredient missing ( a QB), thats why it was so very important this season for Kizer to play. Its a part of the plan that has to play out.

If Kizer is the man we hope and pray he is our need to be at or near the top of the draft becomes less important. But this FO couldn't and doesn't want the defense to win games, they want Kizer to win games if we win any games.

They want these guys to learn to play together and grow together into a great team, not a team that wins a few games but has a chance to win all their games. The goal is championships not just winning but winning it all.

So I find this situation blameless and frustrating at the same time.

I would say this keep your eye on the end goal and stop being upset with short term hoped for goals but big picture vision, which is whats called for here.

I know it may not seem like it but this team is getting there. What we are experiencing right now all goes away with a QB, and that is going into the bank next draft, be it Kizer or someone else this is the last season where we suffer ( I promise).

For now I would say put your emotions in check..

I've been thinking about this for awhile but never gathered up those thoughts to post. I think you've presented a great thought to debate. For me, measuring success is simply W & Ls. However, that is rarely a measure of progress.

You used the word "competitive" several times in your OP. We are all to often simply NOT competitive in a play. I've not tallied it up, but it is as rare as a Britt catch when we execute a competitive play.

At the moment, the ONLY way to measure any degree of success - with W/LS out the window - is to break down parts of the play/players and see where they are now versus where they need to be to be successful. Were we truly competitive? Or were we just a speed bump?

I hope the coaches track competitive plays and breakdown why we were or were not competitive on each play. That includes executing of course - but goes beyond that. Did we COMPETE on THAT play? IMO Second to that - on this team right now - is individual player grades. They are oftentimes meaningless, but on THIS team right NOW I want a measure of who is/isn't doing their job. It isn't perfect and shouldn't be considered in a vacuum, but it is measurable when taken in context.

I understand your take but respectfully disagree with this part.

The Browns FO saw this defense in pre season and said whoa these kids look good and they may win games for us and while that may make the fans happy the long term goals may be sacrificed for a short term 4 5 win season.

We simply can't have a defense that wins games. So than the question was how do we lesson the likelihood that the defense wins games without sacrificing what we have been building?

THE ANSWER: Ask Haden to take a pay cut was the answer. When he wouldn't take the cut and nobody would pay anything for him it was simple cut him. Weaken the defense accomplished.

It did 2 things it weakened the secondary and it worked perfectly. Haden for most of his career here in Cleveland took out the opposing teams #1, and than look back at the games we have had this year and who has beaten us? A= the opposing teams #1 receiver have racked up huge yardages against us. Kind of easy to figure out, if you want to that is!

They simply are working the plan, hopefully Kizer at some point turns the corner and begins to win games but we aren't going to win any other way and that was is and will be the plan for this year.

Are you suggesting that the FO is deliberately tanking?

I'm re-posting this in this fashion in an attempt to get posters to address your real question.

We were a very poor team, and went into a tear down/rebuild mode. We, as fans, were told at the outset that the first 2 years would be very painful. As fans, we chose to take any sign of life, as a sign of hope. That is where we, on this board, made our mistake. We were warned. We were told. We chose not to believe. We let our fandom take over our intellect.

WE need to let these first two years of pain, that we were warned would happen, play out. We need to not make knee jerk reactions. Next year is where we were promised we would see the plan begin to work. 5 picks in the first 64, so far, in addition to what we have built in the first 2 years of rebuild. There undoubtedly will still be pain, that is all part of being a fan. Remember, Tennessee had the number 1 draft pick 2 years in a row. They picked Mariota in 2015, then had the number 1 pick in 2016 as well, and traded it to the Rams, who used it to pick Jared Goff. This year, Tennessee looks much better, yet they are still rebuilding. A rebuild takes time. We are only in year 2.

I guess I'm the opposite of analytics-guy, because my yardstick is more based on the eyeball test. If my team competed to the end, played well enough to win but still lost; if I'm not embarrassed to claim them as my team, then I will feel like progress is being made. I need to see a modicum of competence in all facets. In that sense its anti-analytics because its more based on how games unfold and the way I feel about my team's performance, in total.

Reading this thread is outright depressing.

Refs, I'm seriously butt hurt here, how about a thread lock hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

In spite of all the evidence people refuse to believe this is so, but yes they are tanking with a long term goal to win later and to win big.

Blame implies that the roster is good enough to be doing better.

It depends on what you are measuring success in. Success in the rebuild or success in the season.

Success in the season is always measured by wins and losses.

But more then mere W/Ls I look at individual development.
Players developing is a win [layers that aren't/don't are a loss.

At this point:

Are the Browns winning 1 of 3 games consistently

Are they better than 2-5 winning, in a 7 game stretch consistently

Are the Browns legitimately almost, if not 3-4 or better in any 7 game stretch.

Does the team have real upside? Chance to take this 3-4 team and get it above 500 or into the playoffs.

Are we complaining about people jumping on the Browns bandwagon? Because they're winning.