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And in most cases, Animal Control is stepping in because the animal has bitten someone or something along those lines. They don't just kill them for sport.
They (and most major cities) kill 80% of the perfectly healthy animals that pass through their facility.
Vick couldn't match Cleveland's annual numbers in 20 years
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Just because it's legal doesn't make it moral. 
Yup, you're right. Doesn't make it moral at all. However, we happen to live in a land that has laws, so it being legal really does make a difference. Not that you can see that, but, that's not my fault.
And further more, have you ever seen an animal put down? There's a shot that puts them to sleep. Then, there's a shot that kills them. Just a touch different than "fighting to death", or fighting till you can't fight anymore, and then being slammed to the ground, or drowned, or electrocuted. Just a touch different, don't you think? Maybe I shouldn't ask.
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Empirically, they are the same... dogs are being killed.
However the key differences that must be taken into account are WHY are they being killed?
In Vick's case, it is because they are the loser's of a fight, or they weren't good money makers. They die horrible, violent deaths with MUCH suffering. The sole purpose behind their deaths is to generate money through gambling.
In the City of Cleveland's case, it is because they were unwanted/stray animals that noone but the city would support... that makes them wards of the city, but no city can afford to run a permanent no-kill facility and the euthanizations are authorized by the local governments. The animals are euthanized in as humane a fashion as possible. EVERY animal that comes in is given time for some family to come in and adopt them and give them a second chance at life. Euthanization is a last resort, not a punishment for failure.
In both cases it is a result of cold economics, but it is the ethics behind the two organization's existence that is the difference.
And for the record... the charges separate the killing of the animals and the gambling portion of it all.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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 Are you really trying to argue that shelters that feed and give a place for dogs while giving them a second chance at life are worse or on par with dogfighting? You have to freaking kidding me. If the shelters didn't take them in, they would starve to death. They do all they can but if they can't a home they have to put them down, humanely. If you're so against Animal Shelters then donate a little more money to them, spend some time with the animals down there or adopt all their dogs. Edit: Explain to me how electrocution, slamming and torturing animals to death is the same thing as giving them a painless shot as a last resort because I seem to have some problems comprehending that.
Last edited by bignasty31; 07/30/07 05:32 PM.
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Purp, I'll reply to you since you seem to be the only one that gets my point
Which would you rather choose:
A) A we put you to death by lethal injection
B) You fight the guy in the cage across from you to the death. The loser is still dead but the winner gets steak and a chance to spend the rest of your life as Stud Service?
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Your point is so twisted that I don't think anyone gets it. You are just acting like a troll in this thread.
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Actually wouldn't choice B be "Fight for your life in a cage and if you win, you have to keep doing it until you lose"?
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Yea, he left out that point in A about them being unwanted, roaming the streets, eating out of garbage cans, getting no attention for fleas, disease, etc, sleeping in the rain.... he makes it sound like the City of Cleveland comes and plucks dogs out of peoples yards and puts them to sleep... 
yebat' Putin
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Purp, I'll reply to you since you seem to be the only one that gets my point
Or you're only going to respond to him because you have no logical reason to answer what the other posters are saying?
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I understand the direction you are coming from, but you're so off the mark in what you're saying that I think you're aiming at the wrong target.
In short, only in the most empirical sense are the two the same.
One is done out of greed, the other is done out of necessity.... there is no comparison here.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Are you really trying to argue that shelters that feed and give a place for dogs while giving them a second chance at life are worse or on par with dogfighting?
You have to freaking kidding me. If the shelters didn't take them in, they would starve to death. They do all they can but if they can't a home they have to put them down, humanely.
Maybe you think a 3' X 3' cage for 10 days is a second chance, I don't. They don't even come close to doing all they can  Where has the City of Cleveland ever offered free spaying or nuetering? They don't.
Money to kill healthy dogs the have, money to prevent - not so much.
But no outrage at the FACT that they kill thousands of dogs every year - for convenience.
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If you're so against Animal Shelters then donate a little more money to them, spend some time with the animals down there or adopt all their dogs.
Since 2000 I've donated just over $6,500 (in cash and donated items) to No-Kill shelters in Ohio. In 2004 I co-chaired a fundraiser that generated almost $15,000 for No-Kill Shelters - much of it dedicated to sponsoring free or low cost spaying/neutering.
What I'd really love is if all the "psuedo-caring" people on this Vick thing actually took action to make things better rather than just ranting on a message board 
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Yea, he left out that point in A about them being unwanted, roaming the streets, eating out of garbage cans, getting no attention for fleas, disease, etc, sleeping in the rain....
Yikes, we better not put you in charge of dealing with the homeless people in Cleveland - you know- the unwanted, roaming the streets, eating out of garbage cans, getting no medical attention, sleeping in the rain...... 
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Hey, I'm Ok with that solution, too.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Maybe you think a 3' X 3' cage for 10 days is a second chance, I don't.
At least they're trying to save the animals. How does dogfighting save them again?
Where are you getting the information for the size of the cages and number of days? Because every shelter I've been to has roomier cages and longer stays...even though it's not good enough.
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But no outrage at the FACT that they kill thousands of dogs every year - for convenience.
Because they can't afford to have the dogs there forever. They try to give the dog a home and if they can't find one they put them down humanely and painlessly. Once again, how is dogfighting humane and painless?
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Since 2000 I've donated just over $6,500 (in cash and donated items) to No-Kill shelters in Ohio. In 2004 I co-chaired a fundraiser that generated almost $15,000 for No-Kill Shelters - much of it dedicated to sponsoring free or low cost spaying/neutering.
And good for you. I wish more people would. I donate as well, even though sadly it's not nearly enough because I don't have the financial means to give away vast amount of money
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What I'd really love is if all the "psuedo-caring" people on this Vick thing actually took action to make things better rather than just ranting on a message board.
I agree. The one thing I hope comes from this is people open their hearts and give money to shelters and help homeless dogs because it is really a sad situation.
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"Just to keep our perspective answer this question:
Who killed more healthy dogs in 2006 - M Vick or The City of Cleveland Animal Control?
Why such outrage at one but not the other?"
I have to admit that this brief statement has angered me almost as much as the whole Mike Vick scenario dog fighting fiasco.
To compare torturous behavior, dog theft and the barbaric training techniques used in dogfighting to animal control requirements is idiotic and worthy only of a juvenile mind.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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Mr. Sanders giving his perspective. His opinion is definitely interesting. At least its a little different than the usual responses of flat out rage and disgust, instead it looks at the case somewhat objectively.
If that's your "opinion" of a guy trying to "rationalise" abusing animals,okay.
Because that's what his "opinion" did. Wheather Vick is "guilty" or not of commiting these "crimes" is a topic of some debate.
But the FACT is,if he is found guilty,he commited Federal felonies. And Deion trying to twist that into "maybe it's not so bad" is nothing more than trying to rationalise and excuse abusing animals. To somehow try to "minimize" what Vick allegidly did.
That? That won't fly.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Since 2000 I've donated just over $6,500 (in cash and donated items) to No-Kill shelters in Ohio. In 2004 I co-chaired a fundraiser that generated almost $15,000 for No-Kill Shelters - much of it dedicated to sponsoring free or low cost spaying/neutering.
What I'd really love is if all the "psuedo-caring" people on this Vick thing actually took action to make things better rather than just ranting on a message board
Seems to me YOU are the one playing "holier than thou". It's great you gave money. Obviously you haven't given enough. Or obviously you don't care - you feel your donation is enough to give you the right to say it doesn't matter. How bout being a big boy, and instead of just giving money, adopting a dog or 2, or 3. If you can donate just under $1000 a year, you certainly live in an area where you have pets, so have at it. How many have you adopted?
Oh, that's right. Just as fighting dogs to death is different than putting them death humanely, your donating money gives you the right to call others out. I forgot.
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Personally, I believe this case its trying to portay him as the ringleader of this, and I don't thats the case. I think that if anything he got a little too close to something he shouldn't have. And he's probably sick that he has put himself in this position.
I just don't think the guy would have the time to orchestrate a multistate dog fighting circuit. I think that his co-defendant were a lot more involved than Vick. And reading the indictment, it seems that at the beginning Vicks name was mentioned very sparingly, but towards the end he is alleged to be a lot more involved.
What this means, I don't know. But I see Vick as a guy who got too involved without really realizing it--and now the government is trying to make him the biggest fish just because of who he is---Mike Vick, lots of money, lots of facetime, lots of public reaction.
What better way to make an example of a dogfighter, than a higher up in the subculture being prosecuted, AND that higher up is a superstar NFL QB.
Yea, IMO, Vick is not what he is being made out to be.
I guess I kind of see Sanders point.
Sanders point is one better suited to an Alice in Wonderland setting or even the Wizard Of ODD! What will be said when the Feds produce a video tape capturing Mikey Vick at the dog fight as an active participant? I don't believe that this case went Federal without indisputable proof and video documentation showing Vick's personal involvement of time and money.
So why seek out a plea deal for one of the co conspirators? The video proof may only show one event whereas the corraborating testimony of the roll over guy may set a more complete pattern of involvement. Just saying....
Mike has played his last down in the NFL.
The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, .
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At least they're trying to save the animals. How does dogfighting save them again?
Whoa! Dog fighting is terrible - horrible - evil - bad -etc. I'm not sure how anyone would suggest otherwise.
I'm just wondering why everyone is so outraged that Vick may have killed 50 dogs but no one cares that the city kills thousands every year. In fact, on this anti-dog fighting thread they're attacking me for suggesting that not only shouldn't Vick kill dogs but maybe WE shouldn't either
Apparently if Vick had been killing them with shots because they were "unwanted" most would endorse it.
It just strikes me as hypocrytical.
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They die horrible, violent deaths with MUCH suffering. The sole purpose behind their deaths is to generate money through gambling.
Just one other quick thought... A lot has been made that the outrage in this case is bacause the animals died horrible deaths, some slow and lingering, and all in the name of money/profit. People seem particularly upset that he electrocuted them to death.
Anyone want to guess what one of the most commonly used methods of killing cows is? (Hint- it's electrocution).
Is electrocuting a healthy cow really that different from electrocuting a healthy dog?
Vick was backwards enough to think of the dog as a possesion/property for him to dispose of at his pleasure. I doubt he was thinking "I'm evil and bad". He just didn't see them as a life form that served any purpose other than his pleasure.
Much like most see livestock.
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Its kind of sad that your being harrased Gift when you are stating your against world wide dog fighting. It just came out the wrong way.
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I don't think anyone here is cheerleading for animal's deaths in any form. There is no reason for you to hijack this thread for your own personal PETA crusade.
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Simple... One is Evil (dog fighting), the other is an Unfortunate Necessary Evil.
If you solve the fiscal and real estate realities facing city operated shelters (never enough money or space), then by all means codemn a city facility for euthanizing... but until then, it is an unfortunate, ACCEPTABLE, necessary evil. If you think what the city does equates in any way to what he did, then I believe you are either an extremist with blinders on refusing to see and accept what is reality or you are being argumentative for the sake of arguing.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I don't think anyone here is cheerleading for animal's deaths in any form. There is no reason for you to hijack this thread for your own personal PETA crusade.
First I'm a troll and now I'm a PETA extremist  PETA is a bunch of radicals that I don't have much respect for.
My only hope was that maybe you or someone else might take to heart a line from "Silence of the Lambs" where Clarice asks Dr Lecter "what he sees when he turns that oh-so keen insight back at himself" or something to that effect.
If what Vick has done really has upset you then I suggest that you consider if there are ways in your life in which you're behaving the same way.
Sorry if you find that scary
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So you're saying I'm killing dogs now ? Time for you to step away from the drugs. My own dog whom I love very much was a RESCUE.
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If you solve the fiscal and real estate realities facing city operated shelters (never enough money or space), then by all means codemn a city facility for euthanizing...
If cities spent as much money sterilizing animals as they do killing them the unwanted pet population would shrink by 95%+ in 15-20 years. It would only take one animal generation to "almost" resolve the problem.
As to the other part - I don't think I'm an extremist- but then crazy people don't usually think they're crazy All I can do is try to be moderate and listen to common sense 
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So you're saying I'm killing dogs now ? Time for you to step away from the drugs. My own dog whom I love very much was a RESCUE.
I said nothing of the sort.
I suggested that you apply your personal values to your life's actions. Just as it makes sense to periodicly assess and evaluate our financial situation and goals I believe we should periodicly examine how we behave and the decisions we make.
You apparently have a strong value for pets/dogs/animals lives and feel they shoudl be treated humanely.
Great.
Are you living in accordance with your values? (Don't just snap back "Yes" -in fact don't answer me at all - it's none of my business- but you do owe it to yourself to ask the question).
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And BTW, so far you 've called me a troll, a PETA extremist, and now a drug user
Do you suppose you could take it up to a slightly more graceful level?
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 I can't post the ful image. It says " Special thanks to Mike Vick quarterback of the Atlanta Falcons for finding a good home for 14 Pit Bull Teriers rescued from huricane Katrina."
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Ok, that picture (and caption) just make me want to puke now (or maybe it's the morning sickness). JACKASSHOLE!
Jackasshole = someone that is more than a jackass and more than an . Term courtesy of Couch Girl's hubby.
![[Linked Image from i75.photobucket.com]](http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i302/lrhinkle/d5eaf0b9-e429-4211-b53f-b843bfcf6aa9_zps2ac17420.jpg) #gmstrong
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j/c
Hope everyone liked watching Mikey when he was a "playa", cause he isn't anymore. And I sure hope he made enough money to take care of his houses and cars while he's away (cough cough - I couldn't care less about him).........Poor old Mikey is in trouble. His money may get him out of some of it.........but it's looking bad right now, Mr. Vick.
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OK 1st off Dion is being a total ass with his statements.
2nd This statement "If cities spent as much money sterilizing animals as they do killing them the unwanted pet population would shrink by 95%+ in 15-20 years. It would only take one animal generation to "almost" resolve the problem." = what comes out of an ass.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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I think ALL of us do apply our personal values to life. After all, I don't see ANYONE here that has been involved in dogfighting, keeping dogs in terrible conditions, and slamming them into the ground repeatedly until their dead, shooting them, or electricuting them, or making them fight to the death. If you can compare the two in ANY way, shape or form, I suggest run, don't walk, to a psychiatric center and find some SERIOUS help.
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Quote:
Quote:
They die horrible, violent deaths with MUCH suffering. The sole purpose behind their deaths is to generate money through gambling.
Just one other quick thought... A lot has been made that the outrage in this case is bacause the animals died horrible deaths, some slow and lingering, and all in the name of money/profit. People seem particularly upset that he electrocuted them to death.
Anyone want to guess what one of the most commonly used methods of killing cows is? (Hint- it's electrocution).
Is electrocuting a healthy cow really that different from electrocuting a healthy dog?
Vick was backwards enough to think of the dog as a possesion/property for him to dispose of at his pleasure. I doubt he was thinking "I'm evil and bad". He just didn't see them as a life form that served any purpose other than his pleasure.
Much like most see livestock.
...just adding this to the discussion, over 90 million pigs are killed for our consumption every year in the US alone.
Granted, none of those deaths are related to pig-fighting as a sport but....90 million is a lot.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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yebat' Putin
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yebat' Putin
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Stop, now you're all making me hungry for pigs...
Damn pregnancy cravings!
#gmstrong
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“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Falcons' Vick indicted by grand
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