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Passing on top QB talent year in and year out shows up every year right on Que.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Hogan is not a long term answer, so keep playing Kizer and let's wrap up the 1st Overall pick, again, and get a QB that finally solves the problem. Hell, let's take two of them... then, let those two, Kizer, and Hogan all battle out all next summer long.
We'll only trade out of the pick to stock-pile picks for 2019.
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Hogan is not a long term answer, so keep playing Kizer and let's wrap up the 1st Overall pick, again, and get a QB that finally solves the problem. Hell, let's take two of them... then, let those two, Kizer, and Hogan all battle out all next summer long.
We might very well have to go down this route of drafting a QB with the first pick. Sigh.
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It's true because the game is slower for KH. The game has not slowed for DK because of lack of experience. KH has been around longer and at this time can make reads faster.
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I'm going to be really honest. With our history of QBs, and our history of loving the backup and all that... I was a little irritated when you started this thread. Like... really!? We're going to do this already!? It's just the whole "same ol' Browns... Browns gonna Browns" type of thing and it makes me mad.
But that Jets game was an eye-opener. The whole offense just looks broken, and then Hogan comes in and we're getting the ball out on time, receivers are catching said balls, Crow is running, Duke is doing his thing (although, he was always doing that). Hard to argue with the 180 turn the offense took because of 1 change.
I don't think that Hogan is a better QB than Kizer, but I'm willing to let him prove me wrong at this point. His effort yesterday earned him a handful of games working as the clear starter. I'll be rooting for him, but I'm also rooting for Kizer to get as many of his issues nailed down as he can so he can come back a better QB.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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DK is just to young and not ready. At his age he should still be playing college ball. Even if he came out after 4 years and after being a 3 year starter at Notre Dame he'd still have a lot to learn. I like DK a lot there are many positive things about him not only as an athlete but as a person he just needs time. I still believe he can be our long term answer with good coaching. A vet QB to mentor him wouldn't hurt either.
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DK is just to young and not ready. At his age he should still be playing college ball. Even if he came out after 4 years and after being a 3 year starter at Notre Dame he'd still have a lot to learn. I like DK a lot there are many positive things about him not only as an athlete but as a person he just needs time. I still believe he can be our long term answer with good coaching. A vet QB to mentor him wouldn't hurt either. Mark my words, Kizer will never be a franchise QB. If he is lucky, he will find a back up spot and make millions and have a plush life. But a starter, no way!
Exciting football will be back in Cleveland this fall!
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Passing on top QB talent year in and year out shows up every year right on Que. 
You know my love will Not Fade Away.........
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Passing on top QB talent year in and year out shows up every year right on Que. Those all look like 5th and 6th rd picks to me!!!
Exciting football will be back in Cleveland this fall!
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From yesterday's game - the offense is stagnating with DK at QB. The thoughts I have because of this:
- It's not helping him develop as a QB. He doesn't seem to have progressed as a QB in the last 5 games. . . I think he may develop faster being on the sidelines and using training sessions to improve mechanics and accuracy rather than preparing to start.
- I see it negatively impacting the rest of the team. How much more momentum and positive player attitude would the team have if we were 3-2 instead of 0-5 .... and sure it's no given that we would have won 3 games with a different QB ... but I think the odds are pretty good that we win at LEAST 2 games if not 3.
- DK is just not able to make quick decisions - he's waiting for his primary receivers to get open rather than reacting to a player being covered and moving on to the next read, or running, or throwing the ball away.
- Hogan might not be the long term solution - but he can make better and faster reads and gives us a better chance to win. . . . that might change in a couple of games with D's having tape on him to game plan for. But maybe that won't change. Maybe Hogan will get better with 1st team reps and given an opportunity?
- I was of the opinion that Hogan wasn't the answer so take your lumps with DK .... but now I think the negative impact on the rest of the team outweighs any benefit to DK. . . . I also think DK can probably benefit more from being on the sidelines for a few games or even the rest of the season.
- For anyone saying Hogan isn't the long term answer - start DK and then draft your future franchise QB next year .... I don't see that logic unless you are trying to tank which I never agree with. If you start DK with the express intent of drafting a QB #1 ... then you are also saying DK isn't the answer also.
I'm of the opinion we need to sit Kizer and start Hogan.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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From yesterday's game - the offense is stagnating with DK at QB. The thoughts I have because of this:
- It's not helping him develop as a QB. He doesn't seem to have progressed as a QB in the last 5 games. . . I think he may develop faster being on the sidelines and using training sessions to improve mechanics and accuracy rather than preparing to start.
- I see it negatively impacting the rest of the team. How much more momentum and positive player attitude would the team have if we were 3-2 instead of 0-5 .... and sure it's no given that we would have won 3 games with a different QB ... but I think the odds are pretty good that we win at LEAST 2 games if not 3.
- DK is just not able to make quick decisions - he's waiting for his primary receivers to get open rather than reacting to a player being covered and moving on to the next read, or running, or throwing the ball away.
- Hogan might not be the long term solution - but he can make better and faster reads and gives us a better chance to win. . . . that might change in a couple of games with D's having tape on him to game plan for. But maybe that won't change. Maybe Hogan will get better with 1st team reps and given an opportunity?
- I was of the opinion that Hogan wasn't the answer so take your lumps with DK .... but now I think the negative impact on the rest of the team outweighs any benefit to DK. . . . I also think DK can probably benefit more from being on the sidelines for a few games or even the rest of the season.
- For anyone saying Hogan isn't the long term answer - start DK and then draft your future franchise QB next year .... I don't see that logic unless you are trying to tank which I never agree with. If you start DK with the express intent of drafting a QB #1 ... then you are also saying DK isn't the answer also.
I'm of the opinion we need to sit Kizer and start Hogan. Cut Kizer, activate Kessler, Fire Hue and Sashi, make Pep interim coach and draft a quality QB 1st pick in the draft!!!!
Exciting football will be back in Cleveland this fall!
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Anybody would do for now until we can get Todd Downing from the Raiders or Matt Nagy from KC. Any one who can get creative with what we have and put points on the board. It ain't Hue!!!!
Exciting football will be back in Cleveland this fall!
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It's true because the game is slower for KH. Every time I see that "KH" it makes me thing of Kelly Holcomb. And I expect the results to be about the same. Ever since 1999 the favorite player on the roster ends up being the back up QB. ...... Until he becomes the starter. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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until we can get Todd Downing from the Raiders or Matt Nagy from KC. Any one who can get creative with what we have and put points on the board. It ain't Hue!!!! How many times are you going to post the same drivel?
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Hogan is not a long term answer, so keep playing Kizer and let's wrap up the 1st Overall pick, again, and get a QB that finally solves the problem. Hell, let's take two of them... then, let those two, Kizer, and Hogan all battle out all next summer long.
I'm not sure Hogan ISN'T the long-term answer.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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Hogan is not a long term answer, so keep playing Kizer and let's wrap up the 1st Overall pick, again, and get a QB that finally solves the problem. Hell, let's take two of them... then, let those two, Kizer, and Hogan all battle out all next summer long.
I'm not sure Hogan ISN'T the long-term answer. A lot of people seemed to have written him off but have provided no reason why. I'm not qualified on Hogan (no college film I've ever watched, haven't paid a ton of attention in general) so I'm not able to partake in that argument, but it could help me understand what we have. I've seen Kizer, I've seen what we've seen of Hogan and if Hogan comes in cold like that with an unit he hasn't practiced with much, if any at all - then yes, please I'm all open ears. His size, college game, mental ability? What?
Last edited by Dawg_LB; 10/09/17 12:35 PM.
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Hogan is not a long term answer, so keep playing Kizer and let's wrap up the 1st Overall pick, again, and get a QB that finally solves the problem. Hell, let's take two of them... then, let those two, Kizer, and Hogan all battle out all next summer long.
I'm not sure Hogan ISN'T the long-term answer. Interesting take on Hogan, lamp. We believe that Kizer has some long term potential, but I have not seen much on Hogan in the long term. Can't write off Hogan just yet...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Hogan has done everything right when given the opportunity.
I truly see a little Dak/Wilson in Hogan. If he steps up and becomes more vocal on the sidelines and on the field, he'd have my vote.
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until we can get Todd Downing from the Raiders or Matt Nagy from KC. Any one who can get creative with what we have and put points on the board. It ain't Hue!!!! How many times are you going to post the same drivel? I'm hoping Jimmy sees this and starts to do some research...:)
Exciting football will be back in Cleveland this fall!
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IMO it's time to sit Kizer and try Hogan, if for no other reason than to allow the offense to develop some rhythm and potentially get a couple wins. The team needs to be able to settle in and calm down. Hogan may be able to help with that.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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IMO it's time to sit Kizer and try Hogan, if for no other reason than to allow the offense to develop some rhythm and potentially get a couple wins. The team needs to be able to settle in and calm down. Hogan may be able to help with that. Out of curious, we indeed do that. Kizer is benched. Hogan's name is called. Our offense starts to breathe a little life under Hogan's call. We get rhythm. Etc etc etc. ... what triggers Hue to put Kizer back in? Man the backlash he'd get there, I mean he's already suffering a lot of backlash, but that situation - ouchy... I mean potentially less ouchy if Kizer comes in and can make a NFL read and a throw a catchable pass from a clean, unaggitated pocket. That seems like a far cry for help there though from what I've seen. He don't like frustrated but he does look awful taking snaps as QB.
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Interesting thing I read on Twitter. I posted some articles from the guy before and he answers people's posts about the Browns. Admittedly, I don't know how credible the guy his but he is with the Football Writers Association and he seems to know a lot about football and inner working of the Browns org. Anyways, someone posted the question: Was Kizer a FO/Analytics pick or a Hue pick? The response: Hue and Sashi. Analytics wanted no part. Not an unreasonable selection even though I wouldn't have made it. Putting aside who will end up being right or wrong about this, is that Sashi is always assumed to be attached to analytics. In this case, according to Pete Smith, that isn't the case. I found that interesting. It might also lend additional credence to Sashi's annual phrase about Hue being critical to finding the QB. Sashi sided with him, maybe?
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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Interesting about the analytics and sashi not being one in the same ... very interesting ....
It was well worth the gamble ... he has the arm to be a franchise qb .... we drafted him late 2nd ... well worth the risk there ....
and this is far from over .... I'm as skeptical as anyone and do not get the warm fuzzies about DK but those burying him are frustrated and/or rushing to judgement on him ...
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I think the decision to go with Kevin Hogan during the Jets game boils down down to one critical ability. Kevin Hogan knows the offense better and gets the ball out quicker.
Last edited by edromeo; 10/09/17 02:33 PM.
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Kizer has more potential, but Hogan is better right now. I am pretty much done with potential. I am sure Johnny Manziel had more potential. Note I said pretty much done. Kizer can still rebound, but Hogan better be given the ball for a while while Kize figures it out.. I am not making a comparison between Kevin and Tom Brady other than neither was given a whole lot of credit in the potential department.
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I think the decision to go with Kevin Hogan during the Jets game boils down down to one critical ability. Kevin Hogan knows the offense better and gets the ball out quicker. That's why I think he gets the next 3 starts ..... so that Kizer can sit and watch. That would take us to the bye, and Kizer can be re-evaluated then. Right now I see a lot to like about Hogan. I get the the league hasn't seen a lot of him, but one thing I don't get if why a guy like Hogan will be exposed after a few games, but a guy like Watson is Hall of Fame bound already.  I saw a lot to like about Hogan. I think that Hue almost has to put him out there or he'll run the risk of losing the team. Kizer just isn't ready yet.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Watson has done nothing wrong and a lot right so I get that people would be impressed with him so far in his young career ... I know I am. That said I heard on the radio that Watson takes the longest of any QB in the NFL to release the ball and he has a lot of time in the pocket ... and - low and behold - they were right: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throwNext on the list - Kizer ... Hogen is about 0.5 seconds faster. I agree - sit DK until at least the break. Then re-evaluate. If Hogan struggles it makes the decision pretty easy. Hogan plays well then DK better damn well have earned his spot back, and it needs to translate to game day performance.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Agreed. That's why at this point sit DK and let him watch KH play. I'm sure he can learn from this. whenever KH has played he's moved the O. Give him a shot.
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I understand the emotions but I do not understand why people have such a hard time figuring out that this was bound to be the by product of rebuilding... SMH
Not only that I think it will work, as much as I hate it.
At the end of the day we are to far into this process to not see it thru.
With the money the Browns have and draft picks I see this team making a real push next off season to move up the food chain in a big way.
I get the part about the finish line seeming so far away but what did you honestly all think was going to happen?
BTTB
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I question just how much good Hogan can do. Are we going 11-5? 9-7? 8-8? At best, we might go 5-11. More likely 3-13 or 4-12.
Essentially, goodbye top QB in the draft and hello to the knowledge we literally just gave up on the last QB we drafted after five games in which we gave him nothing in terms of weapons - while still not being enough to save this coaching staff and front office from a likely complete and total rebuild.
No top QB, no real evaluation of Kizer and Kizer won't have got much in terms of experience - minus being the sole to blame for all the Browns struggles.
To be honest, at this stage we should just cut him. I understand people are frustrated, but giving up on a 2nd round selection after five games is a new low, even for us.
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Sitting Kizer in favor of Hogan right now isn't giving up on him. Playing time isn't helping him, he's just not making good decisions and the game time may be harming him. Let him watch and learn and perhaps Hogan can help bring some stability. The team will progress faster if there is some limited success on offense. It's not an all or nothing situation, just one in which we need to play the QB who brings the most stability.
JMHO.
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until we can get Todd Downing from the Raiders or Matt Nagy from KC. Any one who can get creative with what we have and put points on the board. It ain't Hue!!!! How many times are you going to post the same drivel? I'm hoping Jimmy sees this and starts to do some research...:) are you homeless? lmao
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That last sentence in weak points: dude has very nice scrambling ability.
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I am not ready to say that Hogan is "not the long term answer." He has not proven he is, but has not proven he is not. The team sure gets a spark when he comes in.
Kizer also could develop into our guy, but he is clearly not ready to learn on the job. The idea of playing him all year sounded good, but sticking with him and losing because of him is just too demoralizing to the team, not to mention us. Gotta start Hogan.
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That weaknesses section, in general, reads more like a list of things that can be improved vs actual weaknesses. Several on here have commented on how Hogan has done a good job between now and when he was drafted fixing a bunch of mechanical issues he had.
Also (not commenting on you, swish), but I've heard several posters complaining about Kizer's supporting cast when arguing if Kizer is the issue. My take is, after seeing the second half of the Jets game... if the receivers are magically receiving better when Hogan is in there, and the runners are running and the blockers are blocking, etc.... then doesn't that turn that argument on its head (Kizer is sucking because of his supporting cast)?
This subject (how QB play affects receivers/runner/blockers, and vice-versa) is way beyond my football knowledge, but it's really hard to argue when everything just sort of starts clicking when you swap one dude out of the mix.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Sitting Kizer in favor of Hogan right now isn't giving up on him. Playing time isn't helping him, he's just not making good decisions and the game time may be harming him. Let him watch and learn and perhaps Hogan can help bring some stability. The team will progress faster if there is some limited success on offense. It's not an all or nothing situation, just one in which we need to play the QB who brings the most stability.
JMHO. I would like to agree but I'm not sure anyone is so committed to Kizer that they're willing to let him develop for the year and then re-evaluate next season. If we have any intention of moving on next year, giving up on him after five games is an incredibly poor decision. It's bad enough to give up after one season, but after five games? Yeesh.
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Also, I really haven't been able to see any sort of improvement with Kizer over these games. It'd be one thing if we were losing, but you could point to something and say that he's improving in that area by playing... but I don't know what that would be.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum It should be ...Kevin Hogan, the
starter...
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