DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum It should be ...Kevin Hogan, the starter...

Not saying I disagree with you...but...he probably should have never been named the starter to this point. If that were the case, he'd still be right where he was in training camp as the #2/3.

J/C

It might not be a bad idea to know what we have in Hogan as we head towards the next draft.

The guy has somehow managed to keep sticking....shows he is a competitor.

If i was in charge of scouting for the Browns, I'd tell my scouts not to tell the college coach who you are looking at. Ask the names of the 4-5 most competitive players on his team. The guys who don't like to lose in games or at video games in the dorm.

If the coach doesn't name the kid you are there to look at, cross him off the list. Start looking in to those other guys.

Benching Kizer is not giving up on him. Repeat, benching Kizer is not giving up on him.

If Kluber is getting shelled, and gets the hook, have they given up on him? No.

This could work out the best for Kizer, in the long run, IF he takes it as what it is. He has to realize that he is a rookie, and the game is too much for him. This can go one of two ways: he can fold, or he can get motivated to be better. If he folds because of this, he was never going to make it in the NFL anyway, it's a meat grinder that requires internal/mental strength.

Every bad rep is putting a bad habit in place. Deranged to say every bad outcome is a learning event or Kizer would be bleeding' wonderful by now. Start and play Hogan; bring Kizer in for a few series to work on what Hue wants. This my guy, do or die blind loyalty with little improvement sucks at about 40 psi.

Go Brownies!

I agree. I was pretty firmly in the "let him develop for a year" camp at the beginning of the season, but I did feel he deserved the start based off his performances in the preseason and training camp - I know a lot of people who attended Browns open training camp and they loved what they saw.

But we did know he was a development project who was raw and younger than most rookies. He's only 21 years old. No disrespect to any ND fans, but he's not exactly coming from a coach whom I trust to develop a youngster for the next level. Perhaps the coaches should have trusted those evaluations rather than throwing him in the deep end.

It's a shame it hasn't worked out for him. The crap aside, the kid has earned his team mates respect for the work he puts in and the ability he has flashed. To see it not go his way is disappointing, to say the least. It isn't helped that the struggles have not entirely been his own.

I hope we're still going to work with him and not give up on his development. That would be incredibly disappointing.

Sashi has noting to do with that decision. That was all on Hue.

You have ZERO CLUE what Kizer will be in 2 1/2 years. Your GUESSING that he won't pan out. But you have no freaking clue

We could see him again this year if Hogan falters or gets hurt, that's assuming Hogan gets the start this week. And I would equate the situation to Kessler's where Kizer would have every opportunity to start next season if he can beat out Hogan and the rookie we'll likely draft. But I don't see them giving up on him after five games, as in cutting or trading him in the off-season. Having said all that, it is to early to predict how it will shake out at this point, we'll just have to wait and see.

I don't know how good Kevin can be but he does remind me of Kirk Cousins. He's the same height, heavier, probably a little stronger and can make all the throws like Kirk. I'm not saying he will be as good as him but who knows? If we play him let him get experience we may end up having something. Just a thought.

I don't think anybody is giving up on him.

To me, it is shocking how many people have written off Hogan. It's not like he is a 10 year vet. Every time he has been given the ball, he has moved the ball and seems able to put up points.

It's as if some people don't want him to be good. I don't get it. Be invested in us finding a quality starter and less invested in who that player might be.

He deserves a shot

Hogan has sat for a year, and received some playing time last year. It seems that it helped. So what would be wrong with letting Kizer sit and learn the way Hogan did?

Playing Hogan does not write off Kizer. He is young, and should benefit from learning on the sidelines. It seems to have worked for Hogan.

bs.

I've been silent mostly on this subject.

I think it's clear that Kizer is the better quarterback, in the long run, and pretty sure the Browns should stick with Kizer next year.

Now, So Far, I think it's too early to judge Kizer, but he's been outperforming everything in a good way.

So, it's been a pleasant surprise to see Kizer actually look decent, much better than I thought he would

Hogan, fine for a short time, but I don't think his long term ceiling ;

What do I know, I don't know quarterbacks.

who knows,

Hue Jackson has had 7 quarterbacks he can't win with, and he just lost a game to one of them.

I don't think it matters if Hogan or Kizer start!

( I'm counting Osweiler in there)

I really hope you're right. Apologies for being a downer and continuing the conversation, I don't want to be blinded by my hope for Kizer, but I think I am just jaded by this process in which an intentional quarterback carousel seems to be a cyclical part of Browns tradition.

Here is a conversation in the Bears media regarding Trubisky's debut that is minutes away:

“Let’s please agree on this right of the gate: No matter what happens with Trubisky on Monday night – success or failure – let’s not use this one game as a referendum on his future. Please. Heck, let’s not use his first eight or 10 starts to create closing arguments in order to solicit a rapid verdict on Trubisky’s ability to attain NFL success. Those evaluations take years to complete, and we can’t repeat enough that even as city gets swept up in emotional week-to-week assessments of the Bears’ new toy.”

“I’m with you 100 percent. The long view is the proper view, and it’s the view the Bears will take.”

Us? We've benched our rookie three times in five games, are already talking about drafting the next rookie, have shown more support to the awful receivers around him and are on the precipice of outright benching him after a mere five games of evaluation.

Our coach promised a long rope, spoke passionately about wanting Kizer to start all sixteen games, and worst of all, acknowledged there would be mistakes in which Kizer would need our support. At no stage has he received it.

We are again at the stage of "I'll decide who our starter is later in the week based on what is best for the team." It took just five weeks.

I hoped this year would be different. That our young QB would get support, we'd stand by him through his struggles and give him every opportunity to get it right. Instead, he may very realistically be given less time to be "the guy" than Johnny Manziel got. That just feels wrong.

That's my only worry right now. Although this is a really good QB class coming out and we should be okay with a top 5 pick.

You do realize that Hogan has had far less than 5 games and has looked better than Kizer. Hogan had a much better college career than Kizer, and was second only to Andrew Luck in the Stanford record books. That means that he is ahead of Jim Plunket. I want us to have the best possible QB we can have, but I see no reason that said QB could not be Hogan.

The complaint is we give up on Kizer after after 5 games, why isn't the complaint that we do not give Hogan a chance after he has looked better than Kizer in the games he has played ?

It is a lost season now, so why not check out Hogan. We may find someone who can grow with our new receivers. Something it did not look as though Kizer was doing...

Let's see where we're sitting at the draft, and what happens the next 12 Sunday's, before we start worrying about the QBs.
We can't give up on Kizer so soon, can't give up on KH either.

It's obvious to me that Hogan smokes Kiser.Hogan comes into each game and the receivers magically start catching the ball and the offense moves up and down the field.
Doesn't get many reps during the week,and gets thrown into terrible situations,and actually makes the offense look pretty good.
Kaiser's stats are pathetic every time in the red zone he stinks up the joint.

I like the last two posts because I think it is unwise to write Hogan off. I, and many, many others had him rated way above Kessler before that particular draft.

Many folks on here were willing to give Kessler a chance, but then turn around and say Hogan doesn't have a chance, even though Hogan has much better physical skills. That's odd.

But, then again, many opinions on this board are odd.

To be clear............I have no idea if Hogan can be the guy or not. I think the odds are probably a little long, but I think it is really dumb to say he has no shot. He has a shot. He is a tough guy. He has a decent enough arm. He is a great leader. He is very intelligent. His mechanics have improved tremendously.

And again..........I am not saying he is going to be good. I am only saying it would be unwise to write him off.

Yes, I do realize Kevin Hogan hasn't started five games. You'll just have to take my word that I can count to five. Pleasure to meet you, too.

Kevin Hogan was an UDFA who nobody felt compelled to grab from our practice squad. I think that speaks volumes of how the league feels about him in general, and of the investment we've made in him.

In spite of his UDFA status, Kevin Hogan got an opportunity on the 23rd of October, 2017, and looked terrible against Cincinnati in a blow out loss. The team gave him the rest of the year to develop before carrying him in to the new year, giving him a roster spot over two veterans, and now he's on the precipice of getting an opportunity to start ahead of a 2nd round selection. You'll have to forgive me for not lamenting his lack of opportunity when he's getting an incredible opportunity that few, if any, players in his position get. I couldn't be happier for him, he's undoubtedly worked hard to earn it, but I'm not sure why you want me to be upset for him - I'm on cloud nine for Kevin.

I'll admit I don't have a great deal of faith in him, but I'll also admit he wouldn't have faired any better if he was thrown in the deep end last year based on what I saw in his one start last year that came after plenty of development time.

For me, the difference between Kevin Hogan and Deshone Kizer, is that Hogan didn't face high expectations as a rookie before being dropped for not delivering on those expectations. If Kevin Hogan was asked to start the first five games as a rookie last year, I'd express equal patience with him too.

If Deshone Kizer gets an opportunity to compete for the starting job next year, I assure you I'll be as happy for him as I currently am for Kevin. But, right now, they're in very different situations.

I think some of your facts are off and I think your opinions are biased.

I thought that Hogan was drafted by KC in the 5th round and was not a UDFA. Am I wrong?

I do not think that Hogan looked terrible against the Bengals last year. Why do you say that? He actually made quite a few very good plays.

I think that Hogan has earned his opportunities by playing well when called upon and by drastically improving his mechanics under the coaching of Hue and Lee. I don't think anything has been handed to him.

I think that he has performed better than both Kizer and Kessler.

I think he was a much better qb coming out than Kessler was and said so before the draft.

I think he deserves a fair shot.

I am not anointing him. I am saying he deserves a chance.

Was drafted in sixth round,projected as a second round pick.

Overview
Following Andrew Luck is not a fate I'd wish on anyone. Hogan's handled it very well, battling through inconsistency before leading the Cardinal to a Pac-12 title as a senior. He was named honorable mention All-Pac-12 and Pac-12 Championship Game MVP in his redshirt freshman year, but failed to earn any accolades in 2013 even though his team won the Pac-12 championship. Hogan’s numbers were actually pretty good in 2014 (65.9 percent, 2,792 yards, 19 touchdowns, eight interceptions), but the team had a disappointing 8-5 season, leading some to question his ability as a leader. However, he came back strong in 2015, improving his accuracy (67.8 completion percentage) while passing for 2,867 yards and 27 touchdowns to garner second-team All-Pac-12 honors and finishing as a finalist for the Manning Award as the nation's top quarterback. Hogan certainly looks the part (6-foot-4, 218), has football genes in his family (close relatives played at Navy, Arizona, and Notre Dame), has won a lot of games (36-10 as a starter), and possesses the athleticism to be effective running the zone read (85 carries, 336 yards, six touchdowns in 2015) at that size.

I'd add that while I believe Kizer has the most potential, I no longer believe starting/playing is helping him improve. He has stagnated and it's my belief continued time on the field may be hurting him. He needs to learn touch, timing, and to read the field better but hasn't improved in those areas. Hogan has looked better in all those aspects during his limited time, and it appears (to me) sitting Kizer and starting Hogan would be the best decision for both Kizer and the team. Of course it's JMHO.

I stand corrected. Kevin was indeed drafted in the 5th by KC and picked up by us at the start of last season. Not sure why I thought he was undrafted. I apologize for my mistake, and I'll do better to double check before posting in future.

Overall, it sounds like Kevin is going to get the nod going forward, so we'll find out together if he is what you think he is. I hope for our sake I'm as wrong about him as I was his draft position.

I don't disagree. I'm in favour of the move going forward if the front office, coaching staff and ownership are on the same page in terms of continuity (Of front office and coaches) and they all have a legitimate belief in Kizer going forward.

If not, and we've got an interest in drafting another rookie, then we're doing so without having a comprehensive evaluation of our current rookie.

That's just a poor decision, in my opinion. I'm not biased against Kevin Hogan, or any of the young quarterbacks who enter the 2018 draft, I just think that is an insufficient period of time to make a comprehensive assessment of any young quarterback. If we do end up drafting a new quarterback, especially within the first two rounds, whoever it may be, I hope he gets more than five games.

Look we can all say we love the potential in a player for this reason or that reason. At the end of the day though the player who starts should be the one that is producing results RIGHT NOW. That's what a starter is. Someone who produces positive results. Am I wrong?

Is Kevin Hogan the long term answer? NO ONE KNOWS. There is potential for the future though.

Is Kizer the long term answer? NO ONE KNOWS. His big arm provides interesting potential.

Which QB makes the team look better? Which QB is most likely to win a game for us right now? It's obvious to anyone that the answer is Kevin. Kevin reads the field much better, throws with much better anticipation, and his balls have a lot more touch to them. He is ready to play now.

Kizer does not see the field, he throws with poor anticipation, and right now does not throw with very much touch. This doesn't mean Kizer is a wasted pick. It means he is a rookie who is not yet playing at a NFL level yet.

Kevin shows what a year under the coaching of Hue can do for a player. It should excite you and not make you angry. Where will Kizer be after a year or two under Hue? WHO KNOWS?! The thing is Hogan is producing RIGHT NOW. That means Kevin deserved the right to start. I can only hope Kevin makes the most of it and that Kizer uses it to motivate himself to get better. Either way it's a win - win situation for the Browns because the best player should ALWAYS be the starter.

j/c

I think Kizer's biggest issue is that he's wound too tight. He strikes me as the kind of guy who internalizes the problems around him, even problems that aren't specifically his i.e. WR drops. It's not a bad leadership trait, but it's a trait that shows just how much more he has to learn about that aspect of the game still.

At this point I don't know who's the better QB in terms of what their careers will end up like. But I do think Hogan at this moment has some benefits that Kizer doesn't:

-As Swish cautioned, teams don't have much tape on him yet
-I'd also add in there that he's played in the last half of games, so teams haven't had much of an opportunity to make in game adjustments.
-Hogan has come in each time basically with his back against the wall. Even though we were only down 3 points last weekend, it still felt like a game we were playing from behind. It's not like we need him in there to just not blow a lead.

-Add this to the fact that as the #2 QB, he's rather expendable. He could get cut, he could get traded... his employment situation isn't as solid as the #1 guy. His opportunities to establish a legit NFL career are limited.

Kevin Hogan has no choice BUT to take chances, to push the ball down the field, to succeed.

Right now I think Kizer has such a narrow idea of what a successful completion is that it limits the receiver's chance to make a play. Yes, I know they've dropped some gimmes, but can anyone point to a pass that Kizer's thrown that looks anything like 2 of the TD's Njoku caught from Hogan? And I'm not trying to slam Kizer, I'm really not.

I guess I could illustrate it like this: Kizer wants to throw to Njoku, and thinks that the pass HAS to happen a certain time, it HAS to be in the numbers, the defender HAS to be in this or that position... I think he puts so many parameters on the throw that he now has to wait for the RIGHT moment..

Hogan comes in and wants to throw to Njoku. He sees a 7ft high jumper, a guys who isn't slow, a guy who has a massive wing span. He says to himself "Shoot, all I have to do is get the ball into his area code away from the defender and let him make a play".

I'm not going to crown Hogan the Savior, because honestly I thought he was pretty limited last year. But this team deserves some success... it needs to experience success and right now Hogan is the one who's giving them the most.

I can see I like Kizer more than most, so I won't drown the threads with my opinion, but I will add this final comment because I think you've touched on something important.

I agree Kizer's confidence is shot, but how can we ask him to play nothing-to-lose football when he's been benched three times in five games? He makes a turnover, he's coming to the sideline, so I don't blame him for not taking high-risk throws.

I hope the same won't be true for Hogan if he gets the nod this week, I hope he's not benched for Kizer the moment he makes a mistake. There will undoubtedly be some [censored] games in there. He is a young player with a lot to learn, on a young team with a lot to learn, and he needs to be given time to learn before we make projections regarding who he can be in this league.

If he's only got 11 games to show what he's got, I hope he gets them before we decide what direction to go, but Hogan will undoubtedly need support and patience throughout this period. At the very best, he's playing to be our long term starter. At the very least, he's playing to be the back-up to whoever we draft next year. I'd hate to see him one and done off the back of a bad game.

i pimped for us to draft hogan, we didnt...said let him prac squad and learn.....maybe our 2nd round draft pick needs the same, either way i see an i get it, with hogan, and kizer...well he shows great things......he is younger and isnt there yet...but look out....the kid has talent.......hogan for the rest of the year.....kizer sits and learns and can be proud, he really did well. cept the turnovers... hogan just gets it.....ball out fast, any receiver.....and hue...more duke plz...why do you under use him?

What are your thoughts on sitting Kizer for awhile and let him digest what he's seen so far?

He's moving the ball. I'm kinda surprised at how many yards per game we've gotten so far. These turnovers and penalties are killing us.

There would be NOTHING wrong with sitting him for awhile.

Hope for a fast recovery.

j/c

I think that with his big arm, Kizer has a higher long term potential. He started the season as the #1 but has regressed in my opinion. He locks onto his primary receiver and takes too long to throw. He's accurate when he throws hard, but when he tries to throw with touch, he loses accuracy. He still has potential, but at this point in time, Hogan looks like the better option (and has his own potential.)

In baseball it is common to bring a young pitching prospect up and see what he can do at the major league level. If he falters, they send him back to the minors with a clearer idea of what it takes to compete at the highest level, and what he needs to improve. Obviously, the NFL doesn't have minor leagues, but the equivalent move would be to move him back to #2 and let him digest what he has learned. It matters how you treat him, don't make it like a punishment, but reinforce in his mind that you like his potential, but want him to refine his game for his next chance.

Many here seem to think that demoting him equals giving up on him. I disagree. I think he has had the chance to see where he needs to improve, and letting Hogan take over will give him the time to do so. It will also let the team see what they have in Hogan.

The mood around the stadium has changed greatly. I went to the opener. Like all openers, it was packed. I didn't go to the Bengals game. I sold those tickets to a fried.(I hope he still is...lol)

This last game, the lots were only half full, you could find a seat at the Barley house, and there were many empty seats at the stadium.

You bet that Haslam wants to win. To this point I don't think he has sent word from high, but I think he will now if Hue thinks of starting Kizer. Haslam doesn't want picks. He wants wins because wins are what he can sell to his ticket base. Any idiot can see the team works better with Hogan under center. It's time to give him a few games and let Kizer take a breather on the bench to gain some perspective.

I am a pretty loyal ticket holder, but it's getting hard to keep sticking with this team. I won't dump my seats after this season, but next season needs to show marked improvement. If not, I'll go back to buying a few games and do it that way.

As it stands I plan on going to the rest of the games played in Cleveland, but the plans might change. I might skip the 2 December games and throw those tickets in the trash, over $600 worth...I say worth because that is what they cost me...the reality is they aren't worth very much.

We all make mistakes. No big deal.

I am not sure what Hogan is and I am not making any claims about how good he is. I am simply saying that it's too early to say he will never be good and that he deserves an opportunity to prove he can play or can't play.

I think this is an important point.... I am not giving up on KIZER in any way shape or form. But I think for his own development and for the team - Hogan should start.

I do understand the concern that we end the year not knowing what we have in Kizer and possibly not drafting a top QB in the draft because we *think* DK is the guy only to be disappointed.... but based on the 5th game of the season, which is for sure a small sample but nearly 1/3 of the season, if he started all 16 games I don't think we'll be in a better place to know if he is the guy because we won't have given him the opportunity to be successful.

Side note - I thought Mitch looked good for Chicago last night. Very good first impression.

j/c

The more I read about the Hogan situation, the more I keep asking myself "Why not Hogan?" Aside from the thought that we are "due" to be the blind squirrel finally finding a nut...why not? Hogan had a very good college career...he was the starter for 3 1/2+ seasons on a good team playing good competition. We was a winner...he won many big games for his team.

The knock on him coming out was that throwing motion and arm strength. Fair assessments for sure. But the positives were his leadership, decision-making, and athleticism. Appears to be fair assessments again. He never appeared to have accuracy issues and I only see comments that his arm strength is average, but that was supposedly because the windows stay open longer in college and he could get away with that windup in college but not the pros. More fair assessments IMO.

He gets on a 53 after bouncing around a little and looks like a better runner than passer in his debut. In his first off-season, he somehow does the 'impossible'. He noticeably tightened up his delivery. 'Noticeably' might be an understatement. In his first full TC with Cleveland he is the invisible man. People talk about stashing him on the PS or being the odd man out in the number crunch. He's getting very limited reps in TC and is the forgotten man in pre-season.

Perhaps what he's been doing since his freshman year - where he came in cold in his first game and became the starter - is improve his game. His improvement since last year is impressive. His getting to the #2 spot this year after being ignored in TC is impressive. His play coming in cold this year has been impressive.

The more I read and watch, the more I ask why not Hogan? Go look at Hogan's college career. Replay the games so far this year and see the difference in the team and the surrounding cast when the frozen backup gets behind the wheel. It's...impressive. This is more than "the backup being the most popular player in Cleveland". Hogan had a very legit, 4 year college career at a very legit school. He has noticeably improved his #1 scouting weakness in ONE off-season and in his SECOND NFL season as the (almost) forgotten man.

Many months ago, several football-savvy guys (not me) on this board were doing a QB evaluation thing. Very good stuff in there. But...why not evaluate Hogan? Maybe those guys will pick up evaluating Hogan...although that will be tough with such a small NFL sample and an even smaller sample after the noticeable improvement in his throwing motion.

I dunno...but I keep going back to "Why not Hogan?"

Hogan does deserve a chance just like anyone else. Why wouldn't you give him a chance considering how he's played thus far? Just because DK get's benched doesn't mean we've given up on him or he can't be our QB of the future. He's just not ready at this point. If he sits and watches KH it might be more beneficial at this point then playing. KH gives us the best chance of winning right now. I'm not worrying about draft position I just want to win some games.

We'll decide on Weds... as if Hue thinks Kizer gives us a chance to win, I mean, pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Stuff like this is exactly why all we know is losing.

It angers me.