This thread isn't meant to bash Hue or to pile onto our pathetic team, but it's just a way to organize our own thoughts about Hue ... he's got more than 20 games under his belt, so we have a good idea who he is as a coach.
Will he get better? Most likely. Is our lack of talent a hindrance to his coaching ability? No doubt. But we can at least tell a little bit about him.
Strengths (this one was tougher than I thought it would be)
- I do think the players like and respect him. He seems to be able to connect with them and motivate them. We don't really quit, even when things are hopeless.
- I do see some creative concepts with his play designs. Now, does that mean we SHOULD be doing so many creative things right now? IMO, no. I think his offense would be VERY tough to stop with the right, experienced personnel ... unfortunately we don't have that.
- I think he's good with the media. He's mostly positive, says the right stuff, interacts well, etc. I generally have a better feeling listening to him than I have other coaches in the past (whatever that means)
Weaknesses (this one was way easier haha)
- His time management is pretty bad IMO. We waste precious timeouts, have no urgency at times, give teams extra seconds, etc. This hasn't really gotten better.
- Our hesitancy to stick with the run. We all know that our talent is not anywhere near NFL, especially with WR and QB ... yet, we get so pass happy. Even when we're just down one score, we're asking Kizer to take too many attempts. Why not shorten the game, play physically, and use our OL, which is a "strength"
- Our team lacks discipline ... so many penalties. I know some are due to our lack of good players, but when unwarranted penalties become a trend .. it always falls on the head coach IMO. This has been a bad trend for us the past two years.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Can you start one about the FO and owner, as well?
I'll put it to you this way..........there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Hue has way more respect in NFL circles than anyone else in the organization. I'd say that is a strength.
Can you start one about the FO and owner, as well?
I wish I knew more strongly about Sashi and Depodesto and whoever else. Obviously they haven't had good returns thus far ... the lack of talent at the playmaker spots is GLARING. There are mixed reviews with the draft picks thus far ... Ogbah has looked better this year IMO. Nassib as well. The WRs are trash. Garrett (a no brainer) just needs to stay healthy.
The biggest concern is that we passed on Watson, Trubisky, Wentz, or whoever else at QB.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
Ogbah has looked good both years. I think he was a good pick.
I think we need to stay the course w/both the FO and the coaches, bro.
Sorry if my first post was a bit snarky. You're a good dude, but I could see where this thread might head. A bunch of unfair bashing on Hue while ignoring the situation that the owner and FO put him in.
Can you start one about the FO and owner, as well?
I'll put it to you this way..........there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Hue has way more respect in NFL circles than anyone else in the organization. I'd say that is a strength.
Your inability to understand a thread title is remarkable.
I'll throw in $.02 by starting out with the opinion that no one should even-remotely be thinking about firing Hue at the moment.
I think Hue is an effective communicator and leader of men. He has a demonstrated skill in play-calling. He has the respect of the players and people throughout the league. He has brought in an impressive array of assistant coaches.
I think Hue can be stubborn to his own detriment. I think he "falls in love" with certain players and concepts and will keep going to those things expecting the results to be successful - even though they have not. I think he is coaching this team as if he has all the talent he needs to do what he wants to do - because I do not think he's tailoring his scheme (and decision-making) to the talent available. His time management and challenge processes are just bad which gives credence to the belief that he has too much on his plate at the moment.
I'm a Hue supporter. He needs/deserves more time and better talent - either from new guys or existing guys getting out of pre-school. He has to get better at the things directly in his control.
I agree, he doesn't seem real strong in time management, but then again, I'm not down there.
I get hot after games, and do think Hue helped us lose that game on Sunday, but I am still in the camp that he should stick to at least next season.
I guess I could fault him for playing Kizer to start the season. I didn't want that. I don't think Hue was told to play Kizer, but I think it was pretty clear to him the FO wanted Kizer to play, and I get that and the reason why they wanted to see Kizer given a shot, so I don't put blame on anybody for that.
Let's hope that Hogan Hero's can start winning a few game, or at minimum start moving the ball and looking like a NFL team. That will ease the pressure on everybody. We can still win some games this year. Going with Hogan is a good step towards doing that. Kizer is still a year or two away.
I don't know that I would play him again this year. I might consider Kessler as the back-up.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
To say Hue lost us the game says alot, but he didn't lose the game for us this past Sunday. That being said each time I looked over at the sideline his face was buried in the play sheet, need to watch the game. Time management is a glaring weakness, the play calling was terrible, only one post route, everything else was a down and out. I am not a fan at this point and think that he is a great person and great guy, but he isn't the captain of this ship. If we don't win 4 to 5 games this year he needs to go.
The more I watch the tape, the harder I find it to really list a weakness with Hue. This offense works. This year and last, I cannot really point to a game (Including only the games the defense didn't get decimated) that we didn't have enough plays to win the game.
Last week, for example, the players missed two FG's, a good four red-zone opportunities and several first down opportunities. It's a game we should have won, but our players did not. We've had so many relatively tight games in which he absolutely drew up enough plays for this team to win.
Perhaps I should hold him to a higher standard in terms of getting the players prepared to execute, but I don't expect miracles or hold coaches overly accountable for mistakes on the field - I look at the players if the players are making mistakes they shouldn't be making.
This thread isn't meant to bash Hue or to pile onto our pathetic team, but it's just a way to organize our own thoughts about Hue ... he's got more than 20 games under his belt, so we have a good idea who he is as a coach.
Will he get better? Most likely. Is our lack of talent a hindrance to his coaching ability? No doubt. But we can at least tell a little bit about him.
Strengths (this one was tougher than I thought it would be)
- I do think the players like and respect him. He seems to be able to connect with them and motivate them. We don't really quit, even when things are hopeless.
- I do see some creative concepts with his play designs. Now, does that mean we SHOULD be doing so many creative things right now? IMO, no. I think his offense would be VERY tough to stop with the right, experienced personnel ... unfortunately we don't have that.
- I think he's good with the media. He's mostly positive, says the right stuff, interacts well, etc. I generally have a better feeling listening to him than I have other coaches in the past (whatever that means)
Weaknesses (this one was way easier haha)
- His time management is pretty bad IMO. We waste precious timeouts, have no urgency at times, give teams extra seconds, etc. This hasn't really gotten better.
- Our hesitancy to stick with the run. We all know that our talent is not anywhere near NFL, especially with WR and QB ... yet, we get so pass happy. Even when we're just down one score, we're asking Kizer to take too many attempts. Why not shorten the game, play physically, and use our OL, which is a "strength"
- Our team lacks discipline ... so many penalties. I know some are due to our lack of good players, but when unwarranted penalties become a trend .. it always falls on the head coach IMO. This has been a bad trend for us the past two years.
I think this notion that he is a QB whisperer and guru is a FARCE!!!
Exciting football will be back in Cleveland this fall!
It’s Time For Hue Jackson To Accept Blame For Browns Woes
Losing breeds contempt or so the saying goes. Your Cleveland Browns are proving that axiom truer with every week.
After starting their reign in Berea 1-20, reports of tension in all the usual places are back. Yet having done this dance with regime after regime since 1999, its painfully obvious how derision is amplified by losing and can only be healed by winning itself and/or true leadership.
Browns Owner Jimmy Haslam has been unable to provide that kind of leadership in the face of hapless football & scrutiny from fans/media to this point.
That’s why it’s imperative that Hue Jackson needs to avoid continuing to point significant blame elsewhere.
The Browns 3rd loss of the season was a deceivingly close 31-28 loss to Indianapolis after which Jackson took a veiled shot at the front office when asked if the team can win now during this rebuild.
“That is something you have to talk to (Team VP) Sashi (Brown) about and the executive team.”
No one is asking Hue to enjoy losing but how a head coach & front office maneuver through that minefield often determines how much patience ownership has with them. This is even more significant considering Browns ownership has struggled with patience in their brief time in Cleveland.
Hue makes a power struggle and a difficult choice for Jimmy Haslam seem inevitable.
Power struggles are nothing new to Hue Jackson. His one year in Oakland ended with a seemingly successful 8-8 record. Yet in the death of owner Al Davis, Jackson had accumulated a wealth of power and struggled with the idea of relinquishing it with the hired of new GM Reggie McKenzie.
The redistribution of power was a prominent reason Hue’s tenure in Oakland ended prematurely.
Hue’s finger pointing isn’t extended only to the front office. When pushed about whether his play calling is an issue Jackson quipped, “We are standing down there in the scoring zone twice. It wasn’t because of play calls. It is execution.”
His point on execution is understood and holds validity. Yet the timing of the comment is poor form and can’t help further trust in the Browns locker room.
The greater issue here is how Hue himself is not blameless in the Browns failures.
Hue’s handling of DeShone Kizer has been poor to say the least. The QB Whisperer has habitually abandoned the run game, a young QB’s best friend, in the name of winning.
This has put all the pressure on Kizer to singlehandedly win each game with inferior players around him and has allowed defenses to pin their ears back with no threat of retribution on the ground.
If Kizer is truly the franchise quarterback as Jackson attests then his development is more important than wins in the beginning. If his development is handled properly, the wins should come.
Neither the front office nor the players can be blamed for Jackson’s in game management issues. Communication issues, wasted time outs and curious play-calling all lay at the feet of Hue Jackson.
Time out management early in the 4th quarter has twice bitten the Browns with under 3 minutes left on the clock.
Beyond his neglect of the running game, Jackson’s handling of Isaiah Crowell has been odd too.
The offense has run primarily out of the shotgun in deference to a rookie quarterback. Despite Crowell’s weakness reading the offensive line, Jackson continues to use him in a RB Delay consistently, a play that is betrayed by his runner’s chief weakness.
Another oddity with Crowell is Jackson’s attempts to use the I-Formation with Cro. In and of itself, the I-Formation is more appropriate for Crowell yet Jackson used it almost exclusively for running which defenses keyed in on early and never looked remotely close to being fooled. You have to throw the ball with some modicum of regularity for this tactic to work.
As a quarterback guru, Jackson’s evaluation skills have yet to live up to the hype too. Many people have fingered Cody Kessler as a front office pick (another problematic trend) but Jackson’s DNA is all over the signing of RG3 and the drafting of Kizer.
Jackson fell hard for the phony bluster of RG3 during a workout session in mesh shorts. Everything said to be true of Grifin in Washington rang true in Cleveland. Injuries, an inability to develop and a complete lack of self-awareness sunk the former rookie of the year.
There was plenty of pressure but nary a diamond to be found.
With Kizer, its still too early to tell if Jackson got it right. The Notre Dame product has flashed at times in his first 5 games but hasn’t looked ready to be the quarterback he was drafted to be.
Once again in the name of winning Jackson benched Kizer after 4 ½ games as starter on Sunday. This was also ½ way into a game after Jackson said Kizer was “lights out” at times against Cincinnati.
If this season was about developing & assessing Kizer’s ability to be the starter in Cleveland long-term, Hue is dangerously close to failure already.
It’s true the blame shouldn’t fall solely on Hue Jackson.
The front office lead by Sashi Brown ventured into an ambitious rebuild. Brown bragged about tearing the team, “down to the studs,” yet failed to manage expectations last year. The results were a 1-15 first step and widespread apathy from fans.
The decision making has also not been flawless. While several draft picks have started to produce, the team is still devoid of enough talent to compete with any regularity this year.
Compounding the issue is the decisions to move on from the likes Taylor Gabriel and Demario Davis who are performing well with their new teams. Brown & Co. also moved on from last year’s rare breakout star Terrelle Pryor in a business move and replaced him with the complete nonentity Kenny Britt.
All sides deserve their fair share of blame for the 1-20 start, this isn’t about that. This is about a front office who has stayed true to their message as their head coach has started to chuck blame around after a difficult start.
Hue Jackson can still be the coach that the Cleveland Browns hired him to be. He still deserves time and patience from the front office and ownership.
Yet if he continues to look for buses to throw others under, he won’t get that chance. It’s tough to ignore the irony how Hue still must learn there are some things are more important than wins and losses. Togetherness is the only thing that can save Hue Jackson and the Cleveland Browns.
Nobody is blameless when a team starts out winless. However, I don't see critical issues yet. Jackson has made mistakes and we see him attempting to fix them. He can only do so much with what's handed him. There is a lot of youth and there will be huge swings in performance because of it. We can't judge the FO based on the performance of other team's picks because our system isn't the same as theirs. I see many saying we should have had drafted Wentz or Watson, but who's to say they would have similar performances with this team around them. Time is the only test for a FO because it takes time for players to develop. So far I'd say they did an alright job but holes still need to be filled and at least they have a plan to fill those holes. We won't know if the FO is good or bad after 2 offseasons.
Sometimes I wonder what in the hell Hue was thinking when he accepted the HC job in Cleveland. Seriously!
He reportedly was the top candidate in other places. Why choose the Browns who have an owner known for blowing things up? It's mind-boggling!
So, I guess I can say his career decision making skills are a weakness.
IIRC, the Giants were hot on hiring him as well. I wonder if he regrets his decision.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
No bigger accolade than that IMHO and he'd be legend for eternity.
Some like a challenge. Hue has warts like the FO (seeing as seemingly cannot discuss one without t'other) but he seems like he has the players with him and he is genuinely very creative offensively. It's execution that is sometimes lacking - or perhaps personnel - but we cannot cure all that ails in 2 drafts. You need to be picture perfect in execution, otherwise you look like you let your dog eat scrabble pieces, expel them, and that was your playcall. It's a harsh environment, the top level.
I don't think a owner is there to provide leadership. They are highly successful people who have the billion or so necessary to buy a NFL team. To me, all they can do is provide a breeding ground that leads to success.
I think he has provided the things nesessary...his leaders are letting him down, but he picks them. Round and round we go.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I do also think his handling of Kizer has been poor. It probably would have been better to just start Brock/Cody/Hogan UNTIL week 5/6 (we'd be 0-5 regardless probably). That would have allowed Kizer to sit and learn a bit, but would have also quelled expectation, and in turn, disappointment/pressure.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
No offense, but you were one of the guys talking the most about how we should start Kizer this preseason. LOL...Come on, man!
I most certainly was ... until game 4 when Hogan looked adequate. I was then pretty neutral to be honest. I thought we had to find out about Kizer, yes ... but also understood the importance of letting him sit to benefit him.
I also didn't anticipate that he'd be THIS erratic. Quite simply, he's sucked ... like, barely any flashes at all.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
One difference: The proverbial dog will get better. Hue doesn't seem to adjust a thing week to week for the offense. The Red Zone is a monkey on his back. May be unfair, but the stuff he refuses to call that is successful all over in the NFL won't happen here. The TE seam delay, the slants, good screens, and the run are all neglected. An OC is in order.
Another weakness is his judgment, and this seems like a cheap call because it is hindsight, but it is hindsight again and again. WE saw something in Kessler; he says he has something in DK. Maybe. HE knows a lot of ball. But his judgment is skewed, self-blinding IMO. DK is not ready; not experienced; flashes are not enough to carry bonehead performance on the field. Just "going with your gut" hasn't panned much gold for Romeo or anyone else. The talk about what others need to do is OK. But some of what he needs to do first has not been urgently addressed here.
I want to see us trying, failing in new ways that might work, even if we lose. Losing on repeated weeks with the same old lousy says we are too busy with the wrong stuff; our game plan and our priorities are out of whack. This group has some better talent, but we need to help it. Dumb choices on the sideline lower the bar for everything on the field. Is he failing to see the work necessary to improve? Emphasis on wrong stuff? Can't fix the repeated problems? Coach, coach yourself first.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
No offense, but you were one of the guys talking the most about how we should start Kizer this preseason. LOL...Come on, man!
I most certainly was ... until game 4 when Hogan looked adequate. I was then pretty neutral to be honest. I thought we had to find out about Kizer, yes ... but also understood the importance of letting him sit to benefit him.
I also didn't anticipate that he'd be THIS erratic. Quite simply, he's sucked ... like, barely any flashes at all.
Kizer has issues and he was playing bad ... REALLY REALLY BAD ... he holds the ball way to long ... his accuracy is worse than it was last year ... its a long ass list of negatives ...
BUT HES NOT PLAYING NEAR AS BAD as were making it out to be ... he has issues and he’s SUCKED ... don’t think i’m not acknowledging that or I’m pointing fingers elsewhere for his bad play ... he has to OWN IT ...
The equation is this ...
Kizer’s bad play + the receivers drops + how hues handled him + no run game + RED ZONE TURNOVERS = Kizer looks worse than he actually has been ...
He’s play bad ... when u pile on the drops and everything else ... he looks worse than hes playing ... and thats A tough task cause hes playing pretty bad ...
I think the players love him and would run through a wall with no hesitations.
He's smart.
Track record of helping QBs.
Calm, cool and chill in the moment(s) of crises.
Weaknesses:
Defeats himself (IE, abandons the run then immediately tells media he wants to run more. Next game, we abondon the run (before the score gets outta hand))
Team is very undisciplined. We generate so many penalties.
Bad decisions (whether it's with QBs, time/clock management, some play calls, etc). note this is a huge factor, so don't think I'm loafing with the answer/not getting into specifics.
Contradicting to the strength, he's done nothing here to help our QBs. Kessler, Kizer and etc... people who HE'S stood up for and etc is either last on the depth chart from going from first in the depth chart/not even dressing on game day, or started for no reason and benched later.
...
Hue has really started to dwell on me. I think the best thing for him, our team and the success of our team is get an OC in here and take taht responsibility away from Hue and allow him to focus on other needed aspects with our entire team in general. Next season, if we're not visibly and I mean complete transparency in the realm of seeing clear cut improvement and a win here and there - I will lose all faith in Hue. It's so shocking because when we hired him, I felt warmth and faith we finally brought someone in worth a dang - right now I surely don't feel that way. I'm not exactly at the "who will be our interim coach when we fire him next game" but, as I said, the leash is getting tight and next year is going to be critical for me. IMO, this is just another year where hopefully young guys get experience and become better next year. Not even sure if we'll get a win this year.
It's a reasonable post, Dawg. Though I would like to see a game where the execution is there. I think Hue's play calling will look a whole lot better once the players start executing they way they're meant to.
IMO the biggest issue right now (aside from needing more talent in several key areas) is that most of our player have very limited experience within the schemes. At the most, we have a handful of players who have 16 games of experience on the offensive side of the ball, and on defense they have five games tops. Yet we're playing against teams with anywhere from three to five years experience or more within their systems. No one seems to be taking this into account. I know that when I'm up against someone with vastly superior experience, I'm at a grave disadvantage. It's no different here and the playing field won't be leveled until our talent pool is improved, and they all have sufficient experience to execute the plays properly, under pressure, at full speed.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski
"Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield
j/c... Not on keyboard so not much typing. Lot of funny things stated. Hue does this wrong, Hue does that wrong. ODD??? When Hogan is at QB Hue is all of a sudden a genius. Funny how that works. lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Strengths and Weaknesses of a head coach, Winning vs Losing. period.
I mean that's number 1. wins vs losses.
Hue can't win a game with RG3.
Cant win with Josh McCown.
Cant win a game with Cody Kessler.
We can leave Osweiller out of it, but it should be known he was on option in August.
Hue, cant' win a game with Charlie Whitehurst.
Cant' win a game with Dishone Kizer.
Can't win a game with Kevin Hogan.
Lost a game last week to Josh McCown.
Lost a game to the colts, (who about showed the template to recipe to beat the Browns, which the bengals copied.... when the Colts didn't have Andrew Luck.
Started 2016 0-6 - - 0-10 or whatever, it just kept growing.
Has started 2017 0-5, nothing looks winnable on the horizon.
There are some repeating problems from games last season to this season, one of them being (looking back after the game to see they gave up on the running game and tried few carries)
another being, ( the players seem to commit a lot of individual penalties that don't really look like organizationl, rather individual, but they add up to a huge number)
Hue's Strenghts. Apparently he has a lot of respect in the league.
Apparently he develops quarterbacks pretty weill. ( Hey Hue, teach Dishone to line up under center, I can't give a pass on that, it's the NFL you should be able to line up at the kicker, under center, in the shotgun and anywhere, it's the NFL,)
Hue got hired when Sashi, Depodesta, other , other, and Dee, first got mentioned in pressers.
So I have got to believe Dee Haslem had at least a role in deciding to move on from Mike Pettine and Farmer.
So, that is to say, A Hue Jackson strength is it may take until Dee decides this was a mistake before he's in real trouble of being gone.
How long would it take for Dee Haslem to admit she made a mistake, if that is what it is going to take?
Another Hue Strength may be, the teams so messed up that the bottom of the barrel to find another person to take the job may be a reason he still has the job.
Is Hue a yes man. I don't know, non-controversial, doesn't stir the pot, let's say that is a strength.
I think Hue Jackson has won his last game as the Browns head coach, just wonder how long to suffer until this team can start winning any kind of percentage of it's games.
But: as there's nothing that can be done until then,
I hope Hue and everybody finds a way to go out and beat the next team on the schedule and do it before they are absolutely kicked out of the playoff race Again.
I mean how hard is it to win 1, of the first 4-5-6-or 7 games in a freaking year.
Make a list of the things you've done differently to mix it up and try and get a win?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
didnt we start last year 0-14? I think the Chargers were the second to last game
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some people just CANNOT take their jobs to the next level. History is full of business men, military men, politicians and ESPECIALLY coaches who maybe outstanding to a point but can't make the jump to the next level.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some people just CANNOT take their jobs to the next level. History is full of business men, military men, politicians and ESPECIALLY coaches who maybe outstanding to a point but can't make the jump to the next level.
Is Hue one? Who knows.
IMO, next year for Hue is the going to answer yay or nay on the "Is Hue One" question. Let's see the improvement, I'm okay with being patient, as I know with improvement will come the W's, but if we have another draft and free agnecy and we start the season off looking we like do this season (or like last year compared to this, we look even worse next year too) then I think my faith in Hue will be fully dispersed and gone.
You are questioning Hue and not questioning the owner and the FO.
I think that is total BS!
I also think that Hue is more highly regarded in NFL circles than anyone in the FO.
Y'all keep spewing your BS and I'll keep calling you out. Deal?
I'm not sure if the post is directed to me or not, but you obviously don't follow me here.
It's not a matter of "Hue is wrong" or "FO is wrong", the truth of it is both are likely learning the position/etc and have had many bumps in the road along the way. Both have been wrong a lot it seems.
Now the part we really disagree (and there's nothing against either of us for that bro) is where you think the FO is controlling who plays or not on Sunday. I believe Hue is the one, rightfully so, doing so.
I will make it real simple. If one wants to examine our record, the fault lies w/the owner first and foremost. Then, the FO. No freaking coach could win w/this group at this particular point in time.
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