The Cavs are old and slow. They will need several different starting lineups just to get through the season. Their "young" players aren't good enough or dynamic enough. That's why having Kyrie was so important. The Celtics are young, athletic, and skilled.
Altman made the Cavs biggest threat better at the Cavs expense. All the props he was getting for the deal will have eroded by seasons end.
The Cavs are old and slow. They will need several different starting lineups just to get through the season. Their "young" players aren't good enough or dynamic enough. That's why having Kyrie was so important. The Celtics are young, athletic, and skilled.
Altman made the Cavs biggest threat better at the Cavs expense. All the props he was getting for the deal will have eroded by seasons end.
The Cavs are old and slow. They will need several different starting lineups just to get through the season. Their "young" players aren't good enough or dynamic enough. That's why having Kyrie was so important. The Celtics are young, athletic, and skilled.
Altman made the Cavs biggest threat better at the Cavs expense. All the props he was getting for the deal will have eroded by seasons end.
It's a script very fitting for Cleveland sports.
Gotta say I agree with this. This Cavs team would be the prohibitive NBA favorites....if it was 2012.
Don't get me wrong. Any team with LeBron is going to be "good" - I just don't see them even getting out of the East, let alone against either Golden St or OKC.
And this is what we've been reduced to. Talking aging Cavs as our lone source of hope in an Indians post-mortem thread. Effing Indians. 70 years and waiting on them to figure out how to win a game when it counts.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
what a game and series. Yes, I'm a Yankee fan .. but I also root for the Tribe basically all year (except the past week).
I thought Kluber just didn't quite have it ... and Gardner/Gregorius with some huge ABs. In fact, without Gardner's hit, I thought CLE would beat Chapman.
Also, the Indians fielding really failed them .. so many errors in a short series.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
We lost. Not enough bats in three games. A few of our shiny best did not show up. I like Tito. Thanks for the ride. Tonight sucked. We looked bad most of these last three. Did any of that look familiar? The Run was incredible!
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
I really like Tito, but I think he has run his course. He seems to want to outsmart everyone and play cute sometimes. Your second best hitter was back form DL, but on the bench. You have a second baseman playing CF, and you had perez catching when your STARS have not hit the broadside of the barn all series. We need bats, Perez should not have been in the game, Brantley should have been.
So frustrated right now. But as soon as I saw we were a "lock" from the media types to go back and win the WS, I said months ago we will not get out of our first playoff series.
what a game and series. Yes, I'm a Yankee fan .. but I also root for the Tribe basically all year (except the past week).
I thought Kluber just didn't quite have it ... and Gardner/Gregorius with some huge ABs. In fact, without Gardner's hit, I thought CLE would beat Chapman.
Also, the Indians fielding really failed them .. so many errors in a short series.
I really wouldn't call it a good series. The tribe played their worst ball all season and you guys barely got by. Houston is going to sweep the Yankees.
but I truly just don't know how much more I can take of this. Do I want my son to grow up with this constant let down, constant heartbreak, constant BS. We love these teams so much and they could care less about us. I saw guys on the bench last night smiling and joking around down 3-0 in game 5. Playing the worse baseball they played all year, and they were joking around smiling.
I am just sick of it. I am 32 years old, when is it going to end? The cavs gave us a year and a ship, but lets be honest, it wasn't a World Series and it wasn't a Lombardi. Basketball will always be #3 in our hearts no matter what. I swear, the Browns looked more competitive than the tribe did these last 3 games.
I really am worried about what happens as well going forward.
Do the Dolans say "this was our year, we went all in on payroll and you failed. Time to reboot"
or do they say "we need a little more firepower and go over the top?"
I tend to believe they will cut payroll. It might get really bad really fast folks.
Holy crud dude. First with the "Tito has run his course" and now this.
We have a young roster, with most of the core under contract for at least a couple of years. I think Santana is the only one who's a free agent. We're not going to "reboot" after one bad playoff.
I really am worried about what happens as well going forward.
Do the Dolans say "this was our year, we went all in on payroll and you failed. Time to reboot"
or do they say "we need a little more firepower and go over the top?"
I tend to believe they will cut payroll. It might get really bad really fast folks.
Holy crud dude. First with the "Tito has run his course" and now this.
We have a young roster, with most of the core under contract for at least a couple of years. I think Santana is the only one who's a free agent. We're not going to "reboot" after one bad playoff.
Tito is 0-6 in close out games in two years. He drastically has under performed imho
But don't tell me the Indians and Yankees got the same strike zones last night.
When the Yankee pitchers were getting strikes called that were nowhere close to being strikes, every single hitter had to change their approach at the plate. Consequently, they swung at a lot of bad pitches because I'm sure they felt like they had to.
I agree, it didn't LOSE the game for us, but it most certainly didn't help matters. Our defense was absolutely horrid. After all of the incredible plays that we had seen from them throughout the year, we couldn't even hit a freaking cutoff man or throw from third to first...
Last edited by WVDawg54; 10/12/1709:14 AM. Reason: I Can't Spell...
I really am worried about what happens as well going forward.
Do the Dolans say "this was our year, we went all in on payroll and you failed. Time to reboot"
or do they say "we need a little more firepower and go over the top?"
I tend to believe they will cut payroll. It might get really bad really fast folks.
Holy crud dude. First with the "Tito has run his course" and now this.
We have a young roster, with most of the core under contract for at least a couple of years. I think Santana is the only one who's a free agent. We're not going to "reboot" after one bad playoff.
Don't get me wrong, it's not ENTIRELY doom and gloom - but will isn't completely off base here.
Tribe Impending Free Agents: Jay Bruce (30 years old, 13M in '17) Carlos Santana (31 years old, 12M in '17) Austin Jackson (30 years old, 1.5M in '17) Bryan Shaw (29 years old, 4.6M in '17) Joe Smith (33 years old, 3M in '17) Craig Breslow (37 years old, 0.535M in '17)
Then there's the guys we have to make a decision on.
Tribe Players with Club Options for '18: Michael Brantley (30 years old, due 12M in '18) Boone Logan (33 years old, due 7M in '18) Josh Tomlin (32 years old, due 3M in '18)
Dolan stepped up to the plate BIG TIME with the addition of Encarnacion last winter and then being willing to add $ during the season by acquiring Bruce and Smith - but he had to deficit spend to do it. He needed another World Series post-season run of sellouts to even come close to making his money back. We didn't do it. We're going to HAVE to shed some roster money for next year - our market and attendance just won't support it.
What's sad is - even if we let the entire list above walk - with scheduled raises from our returning players - we won't save much $ at all. Which means prepare yourself for not only letting the above ALL go, AND not signing anyone to replace them, but then also possibly trading a veteran away this winter to get younger pieces back (maybe a Jason Kipnis who no longer has a position etc).
We'll still have a nice core including Frankie "Swing for the fences" Lindor and Corey "I poop myself in October" Kluber (seriously in 8 games, his career post-season ERA is more than half a run higher than his career regular-season ERA and his WHIP is over 1.2 in the post-season), and we'll most likely still win the Central (because it's awful) - but there's plenty of reason to see next year as closer to a "reboot" than to "going all in".
Last edited by GraffZ06; 10/12/1711:12 AM.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
I really am worried about what happens as well going forward.
Do the Dolans say "this was our year, we went all in on payroll and you failed. Time to reboot"
or do they say "we need a little more firepower and go over the top?"
I tend to believe they will cut payroll. It might get really bad really fast folks.
Holy crud dude. First with the "Tito has run his course" and now this.
We have a young roster, with most of the core under contract for at least a couple of years. I think Santana is the only one who's a free agent. We're not going to "reboot" after one bad playoff.
Don't get me wrong, it's not ENTIRELY doom and gloom - but will isn't completely off base here.
Tribe Impending Free Agents: Jay Bruce (30 years old, 13M in '17) Carlos Santana (31 years old, 12M in '17) Austin Jackson (30 years old, 1.5M in '17) Bryan Shaw (29 years old, 4.6M in '17) Joe Smith (33 years old, 3M in '17) Craig Breslow (37 years old, 0.535M in '17)
Then there's the guys we have to make a decision on.
Tribe Players with Club Options for '18: Michael Brantley (30 years old, due 12M in '18) Boone Logan (33 years old, due 7M in '18) Josh Tomlin (32 years old, due 3M in '18)
Dolan stepped up to the plate BIG TIME with the addition of Encarnacion last winter and then being willing to add $ during the season by acquiring Bruce and Smith - but he had to deficit spend to do it. He needed another World Series post-season run of sellouts to even come close to making his money back. We didn't do it. We're going to HAVE to shed some roster money for next year - our market and attendance just won't support it.
What's sad is - even if we let the entire list above walk - with scheduled raises from our returning players - we won't save much $ at all. Which means prepare yourself for not only letting the above ALL go, AND not signing anyone to replace them, but then also possibly trading a veteran away this winter to get younger pieces back (maybe a Jason Kipnis who no longer has a position etc).
We'll still have a nice core including Frankie "Swing for the fences" Lindor and Corey "I poop myself in October" Kluber (seriously in 8 games, his career post-season ERA is more than half a run higher than his career regular-season ERA and his WHIP is over 1.2 in the post-season), and we'll most likely still win the Central (because it's awful) - but there's plenty of reason to see next year as closer to a "reboot" than to "going all in".
Excellent post, very informative and precise. I completely agree. And I also think Tito will be added to that list as well. We are a small/mid market team that went all in for this year - we cannot and the dolans will not sustain that spending. this team is going to look very different next year.
Tribe Impending Free Agents: Jay Bruce (30 years old, 13M in '17) Carlos Santana (31 years old, 12M in '17) Austin Jackson (30 years old, 1.5M in '17) Bryan Shaw (29 years old, 4.6M in '17) Joe Smith (33 years old, 3M in '17) Craig Breslow (37 years old, 0.535M in '17)
I can could very easily see them letting all these FA walk, with possibly keeping either Bruce or Carlos. I find it far fetch we would keep both.
Quote:
Tribe Players with Club Options for '18: Michael Brantley (30 years old, due 12M in '18) Boone Logan (33 years old, due 7M in '18) Josh Tomlin (32 years old, due 3M in '18)
I can see them exercising Tomlins option for 3 mil, that's a pretty good bargain. Dr. Smooth will be let to walk, sadly.
A lot of people hated the announcers.. nobody hated them after games 1 and 2 when there were actually good things to say about the Indians.. games 3, 4, and 5, were they supposed to make stuff up to make us feel better? We were terrible in every phase for the most part (some stints of good pitching but that's about it). We had 3 chances to close this thing out and scored a grand total of 5 runs.. in 3 games. That's not the announcers and it's not the umps.
The ump wasn't good. CC got a lot of questionable calls early that Kluber didn't get, it did kind of set a tone.. but it still wasn't the reason we lost. Watch the last Gardner at bat when he drove in the insurance runs, he fouled off at least half a dozen pitches that were in that area just outside the box.. that's how you protect the plate, we watched those and left it up to the ump to decide and a number of times he decided not in our favor... and we never adjusted.
And the errors.. not much to say other than you have to play clean and we didn't. A couple of them were understandable, some of them were just the result of lazy play..
We averaged just over 7 strikeouts per game in the regular season.. we averaged over 12 per game in this series..
I thought the pitch CC got to Encarnacion to get out of a jam was a HUGE pitch (and probably a ball). This is coming from a Yankee fan ... but I also thought Frazier was called out on a questionable strike to end their own inning (maybe like the 6th).
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
A lot of people hated the announcers.. nobody hated them after games 1 and 2 when there were actually good things to say about the Indians.. games 3, 4, and 5, were they supposed to make stuff up to make us feel better? We were terrible in every phase for the most part (some stints of good pitching but that's about it). We had 3 chances to close this thing out and scored a grand total of 5 runs.. in 3 games. That's not the announcers and it's not the umps.
Everyone always thinks the announcers hates their team.
I thought the pitch CC got to Encarnacion to get out of a jam was a HUGE pitch (and probably a ball). This is coming from a Yankee fan ... but I also thought Frazier was called out on a questionable strike to end their own inning (maybe like the 6th).
The called strike three against Encarnacion in the second at bat was definitely outside.
I don't care to do it, but both teams can probably go back and look at several pitches that were not strikes. Umpires are not perfect, they are also not favoring one team over another.
The strike zone was not the problem for the Indians. Their problem was Kluber gave up two dingers to Didi Gregorius and the Yankees bullpen was very good.
The strike zone was not the problem for the Indians. Their problem was Kluber gave up two dingers to Didi Gregorius and the Yankees bullpen was very good.
Kluber only made a few mistakes in game 5 and the Yankees capitalized.. either the Yankees pitchers made 0 mistakes or we failed to do anything with it. I'm thinking it's the latter.
The Yankees were much better at fouling pitches off, extending at-bats, and making the Indians pitch to them. The Indians threw 167 pitches per game (average) in the series.. that's about 20 more than their per game regular season average..
I also think the Indians had this notion about the Yankees hitting all of those home runs in the regular season that they tried to make every pitch perfect and they ended up getting behind in a lot of counts. All this while we swung at pitches in the dirt and kept bailing their pitchers out.
Don't get me wrong, it's not ENTIRELY doom and gloom - but will isn't completely off base here.
Tribe Impending Free Agents: Jay Bruce (30 years old, 13M in '17) Carlos Santana (31 years old, 12M in '17) Austin Jackson (30 years old, 1.5M in '17) Bryan Shaw (29 years old, 4.6M in '17) Joe Smith (33 years old, 3M in '17) Craig Breslow (37 years old, 0.535M in '17)
Then there's the guys we have to make a decision on.
Tribe Players with Club Options for '18: Michael Brantley (30 years old, due 12M in '18) Boone Logan (33 years old, due 7M in '18) Josh Tomlin (32 years old, due 3M in '18)
Oh I disagree. Otherwise you would have taken the time to post the younger guys we have waiting in the wings to replace those players.
I listened to the games (being out here in Southern California with no cable). I remember Hammy mentioning several times in the first two games about a couple questionable check-swing calls going our way.
Yankees were jawing at the umps throughout game 1, IIRC. Maybe the umps evened it out over the course of the series?
I hate referees (in most/all sports). Replace them with robots wherever you can. Nobody comes to games to see the refs "make things interesting".
Even if we had robo-refs, we would've lost. Ugh... those errors in Game 4...
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Don't get me wrong, it's not ENTIRELY doom and gloom - but will isn't completely off base here.
Tribe Impending Free Agents: Jay Bruce (30 years old, 13M in '17) Carlos Santana (31 years old, 12M in '17) Austin Jackson (30 years old, 1.5M in '17) Bryan Shaw (29 years old, 4.6M in '17) Joe Smith (33 years old, 3M in '17) Craig Breslow (37 years old, 0.535M in '17)
Then there's the guys we have to make a decision on.
Tribe Players with Club Options for '18: Michael Brantley (30 years old, due 12M in '18) Boone Logan (33 years old, due 7M in '18) Josh Tomlin (32 years old, due 3M in '18)
Oh I disagree. Otherwise you would have taken the time to post the younger guys we have waiting in the wings to replace those players.
Of course we have some young guys to take their spots. We'll surely add a couple vets on minimum or < 1M per year 1 year type deals to round out the roster like we always do as well. We have a good minor league system - and as is always the case - some of the top prospects will bust and some less heralded prospects will surprise but I don't see a bunch of game-changers waiting to burst down the door (Francisco Mejia aside).
Naquin is roster filler at this point. Zimmer needs to learn to hit or he will become Naquin 2.0 very quickly. Urshela - doesn't deserve to be on a MLB roster of a contender. Allen - I actually like quite a bit. Mejia - Could be a stud but won't help until 2nd half of 2018 at the earliest, and where does he play? Not benching Gomes or Perez IMO at least not next year. E Gonzalez - bench/utility guy. Diaz - Will probably get a shot next year to make or break it here. Bradley - Could be a Santana replacement without the plate discipline. Chang - Doesn't have a spot on this team, blocked by Lindor. Benson - Lots of potential but probably at least a year away. McKenzie - My favorite pitching prospect. He still needs some time though - won't see him in 2018. Morrimando/Merritt - We've already seen both of them. AAAA type guys who can be serviceable in a pinch or for a short stretch but nothing more. Aiken - Running out of time as a prospect. Needs a big year or he might drop completely off the radar.
Point being we've got some pieces for sure and inevitably one or two will probably end up playing an important role on the 2018 team - but will that supplant the talent walking out the door?
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
Point being we've got some pieces for sure and inevitably one or two will probably end up playing an important role on the 2018 team - but will that supplant the talent walking out the door?
We have to wait and see who stays and who goes 1st, but only time will tell. We will be the favorites to win our division again next year.
Yeah I absolutely think we'll be the favorite to win the Central again. The division stinks. But that doesn't change the fact we're going to have to shed some payroll, which will require losing some/most/all of those guys and most likely replacing them with internal kids or minimum deal vets.
We're going to look like a different team - with some of our core pieces from the last 5 years gone.
Again it doesn't mean doom and gloom, but I don't think it means we're going to get any better either. Houston and New York are prepared to own the AL for the next 5 years.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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