DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Should the Front Office get a pass?

If they make another wrong hire then this may occur. Considering the analytics debacle we’re living now, it very well my happen, but then again it may also happen with current residents of no win today street.

Nooooooo, not Coleman and Nassib!!! A pine cone isn't dumb enough to let Garrett walk. Ogbah..let's not hit the panic button.

On a side note, as Zac Jackson likes to say.....it's December in Berea.

If this moron fires everyone ... he will have to re-hire them ... who would come work for him ..

Although actually ... theres some quality on this team ... and were in great shape with picks and cash ...

Guess he has sumptin to sell ... but man ... it has to be real hard to trust anyth8ng the thief says ...

The Browns just lost to the Houston Texans 33-17. A report has already come out that the 0- 6 Browns are reaching out to Football Executives, according to ProFootballTalk.com.

What exactly does this mean? Not only is head coach Hue Jackson on the hot seat, but now it appears executive V.P. of football operations Sashi Brown is on the hot seat as well

http://www.neosportsinsiders.com/report-browns-quietly-reaching-football-executives/

Browns say report they're reaching out to front office candidates is 'false and erroneous'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/browns_already_reaching_out_to.html


HOUSTON, Texas -- With the Browns tumbling to 0-6 with Sunday's 33-17 loss to the Texans and 1-21 under the new regime, the team has already begun reaching out to front office candidates, according to a report.

Mike Florio of profootballtalk.com reported Sunday that club officials have already been contacting executives about joining the organization.

And on NBC's Football Night in America, Florio said, the "wheels are in motion for the Browns'' to reboot the franchise again.

But a team spokesman tells cleveland.com the report is "false and erroneous.''

Florio didn't specify if Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam would fire anyone on the executive team or just add to it.

It consists of Executive Vice President of Football Operations Sashi Brown, Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta and Vice President of Player Personnel Andrew Berry.

Brown, the club's former general counsel, and DePodesta, who came over from the Mets, have no experience in assembling a winning football roster, and Berry is in his second year with this much responsibility in a scouting department. He spent the previous four years as the Colts' pro scouting director.

The new regime has already made what appear to some egregious errors, including handing the Eagles Carson Wentz and the Texans Deshaun Watson in trades for draft picks before addressing their own quarterback conundrum.

The nine players the Browns have so far in that original trade down from No. 2 with the Eagles last year and it's spinoff trades are not worth losing two potential franchise quarterbacks over.

They are Corey Coleman, right tackle Shon Coleman, quarterback Cody Kessler, receiver Ricardo Louis, safety Derrick Kindred, receiver Jordan Payton (cut this year), offensive lineman Spencer Drango, Jabrill Peppers and DeShone Kizer.

The Browns also have the Texans' first-round pick in 2018 from those trades the Eagles' second-round pick this year.

But with the way Wentz and Watson are playing, the Browns will be hard-pressed to 'win' the trades at this point.

What's more, the Browns have two first-round picks and three second-rounders in 2018, and the Haslam must decide if they want to conduct another pivotal draft with the unproven triumvirate.

The Haslam are also not permitted to speaks with executives currently in the NFL without permission, so they might be going outside for now if the report is true.

One name to watch is Peyton Manning. Jimmy Haslam is close to him and told cleveland.com in 2012, "(The Mannings) are great friends. Peyton is of course a legend in Tennessee and Archie, Eli, our families are great friends. I just got a text from Archie. You won't find better people than the Manning family....Peyton's a great talent. He's not only a great athlete -- he's also a very smart person."

Manning recently told Peter King of Monday Morning Quarterback that he's interested in becoming a front office executive, but not necessarily right away.

However, if Haslam is considering blowing up the front office, Manning would be a logical candidate because of their strong friendship, forged through their University of Tennessee connection.

Other teams would also likely be interested in Manning, including the Titans and Colts, and it might not be easy to get him here.

Several sources have told cleveland.com that Haslam would likely need to give Manning a piece of the team to try to make it happen.

yeah, we need another regime, 22 games into the most recent one. if Haslam dumps the crew he hired less than two years ago, he needs to fire himself for incompetence. Repeated incompetence.... he tries, but he keeps failing.

Seems like every team knows to trade to get "the guy" and usually do it in the position we're in to get "the guy" and give it up.

If that's not a sign something is wrong, I don't know what a sign is.

Browns, at the success of every team in the NFL and etc, is willing to keep losing to give you the pick you (we need) to win.

Personally, I think the the large number of penalties we get each game are evidence of a poorly coached team and Hue should be getting some pressure from that.

Similarly, the D is giving up nearly 30 points a game...yet Williams keeps playing Peppers too deep.

Both Hues, and Gregs game plans should be adjusted to the players that they have. Maybe they are, but Hue's insistence on the pass indicates that he is not because our QB's and WR's are bad.

I do not think either Greg Williams of Hue Jackson should be fired because clearly we do not have the play makers to effectively execute either scheme in year 2 of this rebuild. But both deserve some pressure to get more out of the troops.

However, the lack of play makers, especially QB and WR's can be clearly laid at the foot of Sashi Brown and Depodesta. In the event that the FO went against the recommendation of the Coach when passing on Wentz and Watson than I think the FO should be cleared out.

Nobody is going to fault Haslam for firing these guys due to the glaring mistakes the FO made on the QB decisions of the last two years. I think Jimmy can clearly say he is disappointed that they failed to properly evaluate the talent available via the draft and free agency and feels they need football people in place for the next draft.



However,

I roll my eyes when I see journalists complaining that Houston pulled one over us.

Their general manager, Rick Smith, has been trying to address their quarterback position since Matt Schaub nose-dived in 2012. He has been their general manager since 2006, and Matt Schaub is all he's effectively done in terms of bringing some level of passing success to the team - and Matt Schaub had impressed when given the opportunity behind Mike Vick so they traded some high value selections to acquire his services. He was an in-demand name. Wasn't so much a great 'hit' in terms of wonderful evaluation, but more the willingness to give up more than anyone else did just to get him.

It took 11 years to fill the quarterback position for Houston, assuming Watson is all he seems, and once again it took some very expensive draft selections to get done. They stayed patient, continued building the team, and it appears they finally got it right.

Meanwhile, we're less than one-and-a-half seasons in and people have already lost patience. Because we "traded away" two talented young quarterbacks, to teams with vastly superior rosters than our own, and acquired a bunch of selections to do so.

That, in and of itself, is systemic to our utter failures to maintain continuity. Our team is so bad that the front office is willing to surrender the chance to draft a top-level quarterback in exchange for a plethora of selections that we can use to quickly address as many positions as possible. We're in this situation because we gutted the team with turnover, shipped off all the players who didn't fit the scheme, and began fresh with a very young roster.

I can't blame them. I would be reluctant to draft a quarterback, knowing I cannot put a solid team around him, when fans and media will give up on our quarterback in less than five games if he shows any kind of struggles. How many people are talking firings, drafting a new quarterback next year or writing Kizer off? It was mere days ago that a literal majority of fans were convinced Kevin Hogan was more valuable to this team than Deshone Kizer because Kizer is a bust. Already.

If Jimmy Haslam doesn't give this time, it just isn't going to happen. Period. You cannot assemble an NFL team in two seasons with a roster this empty. It can't be done.

It has to end some time. We've been talking about patience for nearly two decades now yet have never actually exhibited any. If Jimmy wants to fire everyone all over again, don't be shocked when this cycle continues.

I would think the next FO wouldn't be as dumb as Sashi and get rid of every piece of talent on the team.

How long do you stick with a failed plan? 1-21. No progress to indicate this team is moving in the right direction. None. How many 1-15 seasons are acceptable? It must be nice to be Sashi Brown, hiding behind "the plan" and never have to produce results.

Evidently, you stick with a failed plan for twenty years, because that's about how long we've been firing everyone every other year.

It has not only failed, but is has failed at a level that will forever be remembered amongst the darkest, most incompetent times in the history of a sporting franchise.

We're the worst team in the NFL, and the only team who so consistently fires everyone and overturns the roster. At what point do we start to see correlation between these two things?

That's the true failure. Expecting to dig our way out of this mess in just two years, every other two years, is the only patience our franchise consistently shows: and it is consistently a nightmare.

The problem with the Browns FO is the fact you bring in guys like Brown and Depodesta who have very limited football backgrounds.
They never had a Bill Parcells or Bill Polian to tell them
"Hey your going about this the wrong way"
Then you add on the fact Sashi and The baseball guy have no idea on how to change a culture unprecedented in pro sports
Sashi and the baseball guy are out of their league

I think we should stick w/the plan now that we have implemented it.

I always questioned the plan because I think losing a ton of games in multiple years is almost impossible to overcome.

People get mad. The media piles on. The blame game starts. Ownership gets restless. The team loses confidence. Players don't learn how to win. Players learn to accept losing.

These things typically lead to more firings .

I don't see how that is such a great plan.

But again, now that we have implemented it..........you almost have to stick w/it.

The only change I would consider is bringing a football guy..........like Peyton Manning........and having Sashi deal w/the financial aspects of the team and relinquish the personnel decisions. He was never qualified to handle personnel decisions in the first place.

Replacing Sashi with Manning is essentially abandoning the plan. Manning will bring a completely different philosophy to Berea.

We def need a football brain in the FO, move the current guys into the money side and get the football ops side tooled to turn this around

I agree, but I don't think our acquisitions have been bad enough to suggest that our front office can't learn the process with their continued experience.

The biggest problem, in my mind, has been the front office too consistently thinking that continuity goes without saying. They've focused on overturning the roster and parting with veterans to ensure we have plenty of cap space, and the draft has focused on players with tremendous upside while acquiring an abundance of cap space and future draft assets.

In theory, it sounds beautiful. In practice, we're seeing that it is incredibly rough. I think if they had their time again, they wouldn't have torn it all down so quickly.

I don't think culture is a problem. I see these guys fighting hard every week. I see the emotion when it falls apart. I see a lot of friendship on our roster, a lot of respect for the coaches and very strong opinions from veterans I trust (McCourty and Thomas, for example) that this is a strong culture with a bright future.

I genuinely think we've made some selections who'll be fantastic down the line. Look at the difference so far between a rookie Devalve and a 2nd year Devalve - Imagine where Njoku will be. Garrett is an absolute centrepiece. Peppers has flashed but is struggling in his new role. Kizer has been up and down, but the up is there. Ogunjobi is insanely underrated, and he's turned in some wonderful moments.

The list goes on. It hasn't come together the way we want, but I do think it will explode. Look at the New York Jets. People thought they were certain to hold the first overall pick, likely to be historically bad, and they're red hot.

Same with the Jags, they came out of nowhere after people predicted they could be in 'fire sale' mode during the preseason: But people didn't count on the fact that their rosters have just arrived at the point in which they're starting to know one another and perform as a team.

I'm not saying Sashi and Paul are perfect, and they have a lot to learn, but I think it is too soon to say their selections have failed.

Nice argument. Logical.

On the other hand, I think you are overrating some of the players.

We've been saying that for 3 years.

No doubt. Some of these players aren't going to ascend to the level I hope they do. They've all flashed ability, but not all of them will become a long-term solution at their position. Most of the players we've selected won't be on the team five years from now.

That is standard, however. If you get one or two long-term starters, and maybe two situational players who can occasionally make plays, that's a brilliant draft.

The best team in the NFL is currently the Chiefs. Their starting roster in terms of starters.

2017 - Kareem Hunt.
2016 - Tyreek Hill, Chris Jones.
2015 - Mitch Morse, Ramik Wilson, Marcus Peters.
2014 - DeAnthony Thomas, Dee Ford, Laurent Duvernay-Tardif.
2013 - Eric Fisher, Travis Kelce.
2012 - Nil.
2011 - Allen Bailey, Justin Houston.
2005 - Derrick Johnson.

The rest of their starters are from trades, free agency, undrafted or waiver pick-ups. They do have 6 players on IR, some of whom belong in the above list, but it does highlight the point of how few successful hits there are in the NFL.

I think the point of a good team is having enough players to rotate in who will hold down the fort until their time comes to be replaced.

Then our starting roster:

2017 - Myles Garrett, Jabrill Peppers, Deshone Kizer.
2016 - Rashard Higgins, Ricardo Louis, Shon Coleman, Seth Devalve, Emmanuel Ogbah, Joe Schobert, Derrick Kindred.
2015 - Danny Shelton.
2014 - Joel Bitonio, Christian Kirksey.
2007 - Joe Thomas.

I think it highlights not only how young we are, but how insanely reliant we are on these young players defying the odds and performing at a high level in unfathomable numbers that even the best drafting teams cannot replicate with their own inundation of young talent.

While I certainly hope all these guys go on to be good, realistically, only a handful of them will be any good. One. two. Maybe three. From any given draft class.

What we can hope is that they're good enough to stick around long enough until we reach a point in which we can add another one or two good players from the next draft, while adding some talented free agents and potential trades.

Until such a point comes that we're not reliant on young talent, and we can have a natural progression of young players arriving and developing without need to immediately start, we're going to find ourselves in some trouble.

While I don't think they'll all be good, I do think we have strong indications that we're adding enough players from each class that could reasonably be part of the foundations moving forward.

Consistency for the sake of consistency isn't a solution either. If we gave Weeden 5 years as a starting QB was he ever going to be a super bowl caliber QB? Look, no one is expecting us to dig out in 2 years. But expecting progress is reasonable. Expecting signs that shows the FO is on the right track is reasonable. 1-21 is not progress. Having only led once in 6 games is not progress. There comes a point where you have to cut your losses. I'd like to give them more time, but I don't think I can handle a 3rd season like this.

The plan needs to be evaluated and tweaked if there is any hope it being successful.

All this talk of firing Hue is really disgusting. There are problems on this team and they suck but the Browns have fired head coaches in 2 years 4 TIMES IN A ROW! It is ridiculous... Shurmur, Chud, Pettine, Hue... If the Browns end up being known for something unprecedented in NFL history -- it will be for doing going on with terminating 4 coaches in a row in 2 years or less ! Hue had ziltch to work with last year so that season should certainly be written off... This year they have no receivers and lousy QBs. They've made some horrible mistakes but blowing it up again.. ugh... it will be hard to even think about another rebuild.

We're not talking about Brandon Weeden, though. We're talking about the front office and coaching staff, which is near the entirety of the Browns football operations. That also renders the majority of the roster obsolete, because a new front office and coaching staff are not only going to want players who fit their scheme and vision for the future, but those whom they are familiar with - so, in turn, you end up dedicating the first year to gutting the roster.

That's not quite as simple as identifying Brandon Weeden as not our future and moving on.

I would argue we have seen progress. We've undeniably added more talent. The numbers are better. Just because we're not yet at a level in which we're consistently winning does not mean this team has shown no progress. That's an absurd statement. Our pass rush is better, our run defense is better, our run game is better and our pass protection is better. Unfortunately, we're struggling in the secondary and at the quarterback position - largely due to young, inexperienced players in the secondary, quarterback and wide receiver.

We need more time. Additional talent, game experience and scheme familiarity seem to be no-brainers. Instead we want another roster overturn, team learning new schemes and new young players thrown in to the fire?

I'm not saying we're not what our record is. 1-20 isn't a position anyone wants to be in. I don't want to see that made worse by starting again before we inevitably fire everyone after another two seasons because they won't have accomplished the impossible in what will literally mark our 20th year anniversary of consistently firing everyone and wondering why we keep losing.

I think going 1-31 would top that.

I think we should give them time, at least until the end of the season. We will accomplish nothing by tearing things apart middle season, and maybe they can turn the ship around and start showing a consistent improvement.

Regarding the change...What do you think about Urban Meyer?

I honestly think we need someone like him to turn the ship around..

what makes you think this front office wont let them walk?

You don't know that he would. He might report directly to Haslam.

Who knows if these guys stick around should their power be usurped...

Agreed. Usually it's a blow up, not a piece leaving here or there.

At this stage, I'm not sure any candidate with a pinch of potential would even want to hear a phone call from the Browns about the front office jobs.

People come, and they surely fail and go.

I'm a die hard, or at least was, and I'm already packing in for the season. I'm not sure how much longer I have left before I just root for another football team. I'm just tired of all the failure.

Because every FO we've had has let our best players (They're not our best, just the first 4 that popped into my mind) walk. Doesn't matter if they're football guys or they if they're in love with Anna Lytics. I'm so sick and tired of us tearing up the foundation of this team up every two years. I'm tired of seeing Cleveland Browns dominate the league for other teams, because our FO wanted their own guys (which isn't an outrageous request). Do you really think anyone is safe with a new FO? There's been Joe Thomas trade rumors from the last 3 front offices. And he's the best left tackle to ever play in the NFL. What do they care about someone else's pick?

I agree with you about the lack of progress. We are 0-6, only the 49ers are there with us. The Colts (without Luck) are also pretty bad (their only two wins are against the aforementioned Browns and 49ers). Difference is, our point differential is -63.. and that's only thanks to late meaningless points in a number of games, it could be a whole lot worse. The 49ers point differential is only -33 and they have lost their last 5 games by 3 points or less. At least they are competing.

I'm really struggling to find something.. ANYTHING.. that leads me to believe we are on the right track to see a turnaround.

Our offense is downright anemic. I remember that feeling I had years ago when I viewed our best offensive option as Josh Cribbs running a kick back for a TD.. if that didn't happen I fully expected a punt or a turnover on every possession... and that's pretty much where I am with this group only Peppers hasn't shown that propensity to run a kick back once in a while yet.

j/c

It's so incredibly hard at this point to preach patience, particularly in light of recent performances. Much of our woes come down to QB play. Take those three INTs out of the equation and we likely have a much different game yesterday. We ran the ball fairly well. Only gave up a couple big plays on D (every defense will give up a big play occasionally). And for possibly the first time this year, our WRs showed up when the ball was catchable. (I don't recall any drops).

I don't like the constant out patterns, they're harder to catch than crossing pattern, hence I'm pissed that we don't throw many of those or inside slants. I don't understand what Hue's problem is with that. I also hate all the penalties but I think that has a lot to do with being so young and still being "new" at the systems. I feel Hue is growing in his role. (For example sticking with the run more yesterday), and needs his young players to season around him for any chance of success.

I hate that the FO passed on three QB's that are having success right now but I understand the need and desire for draft picks. We may not have a bunch of all pros, but there is a nucleus of a team coming together here, and I expect this next draft and FA period will do much to add talent to this team.

I have to be patient at this point. I absolutely do not want another tear down and rebuild. I believe that would be ridiculous, counter productive, and in all likelihood a new regime would struggle mightily in the first few years, especially if they gutted the roster. A best case scenario would be continuing to build on what is here now and having success within two years. So if that is the case, I see no reason not to let this regime play out for two years to see if they can finally have some success and start bringing wins to this team.

The players themselves deserve the chance to play in a system longer than two years. They deserve the chance to begin executing at a high level because they all will finally know what they are supposed to be doing instead of constantly thinking about it. Blowing it all up starts that process all over again, and where does it end?

As ugly as the product is now, we have to see this through. If we start to show some success in the next year or two, it will have been well worth the wait and anguish. If it still stinks in 2019, then by all means blow it up. At least the football world will know we tried and we'll be able to attract FO & coaching talent because they'll know that they'll get a decent shot at making it work. Blow it up now, and no one worth a crap will come.

It's frustrating. It's awful. There are many legitimate reason to bitch about the coaching, the FO, the ownership, the players and execution. But there is no legitimate reason to start over, IMHO.

It would be a lot easier to preach patience with just a minor shred of any improvement. But the team is getting worse. They are committing MORE penalties. The passing offense was a complete and utter joke. They are playing guys out of position, like making Peppers a free safety and dropping Danny Shelton into coverage on a zone blitz.

A regime does not come back from this type of ineptitude and failure. I think they have found a good base of players, and they may even stay and have a good draft next year.

But this has gone too far. Hue has made too many mistakes to recover. I feel like the team is on the precipice of giving up. Hue is about to flip flop on his QB decision, AGAIN, after only 1 week.

This is the nightmare scenario. I think the team is more talented than being 0-6 at this point of the season. And that is an indictment on everyone on the coaching staff and front office.

+ 1

As Browns fall to 0-6, there's plenty of blame for both front office and coaching staff

Posted on October 16, 2017 at 11:15 AM
By Dan Labbe, cleveland.com dlabbe@cleveland.com
link

HOUSTON, Texas -- It's inevitable at this point, with the Browns sitting at 0-6 for the second consecutive season: people are going to start taking sides, coaching staff vs. front office. Either the talent isn't good enough or the coaches aren't getting the most out of it.

The reality, though, is this: the Browns are a poorly constructed, poorly coached team with plenty of blame to spread across the entire organization for where they sit right now.

From a coaching standpoint, it's hard to watch on Sundays and believe that head coach Hue Jackson and defensive coordinator Gregg Williams are putting their players in the best positions to be successful. It starts with Jabrill Peppers lined up some 30 yards away from the ball and ends with Kevin Hogan running an offense that best suits the 1999 St. Louis Rams, a roster full of Hall-of-Famers.

Offensively, there is little identity -- it's hard to say what exactly the Browns are trying to do week-to-week, other than close their eyes, heave the ball downfield and pray.

On the other side, the Browns have yet to meet an opposing offense that isn't drooling looking at all that space in the middle of the field, racking up big chunks of yardage against soft coverage.

Then again, how much of that is really on the coaching staff? They are relying heavily on receivers they've rescued off the waiver wire or practice squads. The defense is littered with recent draft picks, but outside of Myles Garrett and free agent addition Jason McCourty, there aren't many players on that side of the ball making impact plays with any sort of consistency.

It's easy to point at coaching when a team is losing every Sunday, but the NFL is a talent business and the Browns simply don't have enough of it. The front office has chosen quantity of picks again and again, and it has cost them players that are making significant impact around the league. Instead of valuing top level talent at rookie level salaries, the Browns have put their faith in picking players down the road.

Nothing points to that more than Myles Garrett, the obvious pick at No. 1 in 2017 and a player the Browns simply stayed put and drafted. He's already doing things that no other Browns defender can do. Believe it or not, you can build a good team by simply staying in high draft slots and picking players.

Meanwhile, Jackson is in the process of yo-yoing his rookie quarterback in and out of the lineup, turning to Hogan, who turned the ball over three times in the first half on Sunday. Jackson asked Hogan to throw the ball 21 times in the first half, as it becomes more and more clear that the offense he's trying to run simply doesn't work without the likes of A.J. Green, Marvin Jones and Mohamed Sanu.

The Browns are winless, lacking in identity and facing a talent deficit that is perhaps worse than a season ago, even after making 24 draft picks in the last two seasons and possessing enough cap space to fund a small island nation.

The Browns are worse today than they were a year ago. From ownership down to coaching, there's enough blame to spread around to everyone.