DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Should the Front Office get a pass?

No, they are even more stupid.

I don't know - and wouldn't know if I weren't told - whether the QBs are allowed to change the call. I do know that the pitch play to Crow was one of two choices Kizer had on that down - and he switched to that play.

My guess is that the QBs are often given a play to run and an alternate play to choose...I doubt they are given the opportunity to make up something new at the LOS. JMO.

Those very-knowledgeable football people are saying and acknowledging BOTH things. One of those things can be addressed right now - but is not. The other thing has to wait for another draft and free agency period.

For one example...listen to Donovan, Dieken and Cherry on the radio. They are smart football guys who are also around the team. They know the QBs are weak...they also know that Hue has given the keys to the QB as if the QBs were good, experienced guys throwing to good, experienced guys...which none of them are.

There is only so much that can be done to improve the talent these last 12 games. Mistakes have been made in that regard but it is what it is. Those responsible are being evaluated.

The insistence on running the Bengals offense (from a few years ago) without the Bengals talent is on the present OC. Hue needs to take his play-calling talent and devise something that these guys can run and master.

And no one should even be whispered as getting fired. Everyone has to do better and only the coaching and players can effectively do that these last 12 games.

Thanks for the response, Willie. Others would be appreciated as well...

Oct 31 @ 4pm is the trade deadline. Typically there is not much action, but it represents the last opportunity for personnel change this season...

Most coaches that have rookie QB's will limit or dumb down pre-snap adjustments. I'm not sure how much rope Hue gives Kizer, but he probably gave more rope to Hogan with a year in the system.



I'm not upset about that. That is the smarter tactic for the long run. Sure it's easier to win now if you dumb down the offense, but if the QB doesn't learn the real offense now, he'll have to learn it later. I'd rather trade a few wins now for a few wins later when to team is built and ready to make a run.

I am a big fan of tailoring your scheme to your team's skills, but dumbing stuff down for a rookie QB only really works if that rookie QB is already on a good team that is making a playoff run now.

Nice point and I've been contemplating if that is what is going on here.

I have no clue bro ... ZERO ....

Willies theory sounds good and makes sense ... so based off everything else Hue’s done in handling Kizer so far, thats probably not what hes done ... *L* ...

I’d be guessing and won’t talk out my ass like some (not u Willie ... this time anyhow ... )

<sing> Get...me...out...of...this...town...quick <sing>

0-6? The front office isn't doing this to you, Browns fans; they're doing it for you -- Doug Lesmerises

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/cleveland_may_not_be_strong_en.html



By Doug Lesmerises, cleveland.com

dlesmerises@cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland may not be strong enough to allow the plan to see itself through, but if this Browns front office is fired anytime soon, know this: The next general manager will oversee a winner. And you'll credit the wrong guy.

If this grand, brief experiment ends after this season -- and it shouldn't, oh it shouldn't -- the next group of decision makers will step in and see what no Browns GM has inherited in years.

A foundation.

I'm standing up here not for the people but for the plan, not for the individuals but the idea. Sometimes, ideas need defending, especially those with delayed outcomes.

Some have reached the point of taking the losing personally, so 0-6 and 1-21 is enough, and the calls for the jobs of Sashi Brown and his crew have begun. They'll wrap themselves in the history of misery that means nothing in the now, and Jimmy Haslam may listen and panic and 2018 could welcome a new boss surveying this scene:

A defensive line built around two high and productive picks, one of them, Myles Garrett, a supposed can't-miss the whole league agreed on.
Solid linebackers and a secondary featuring an interesting if uncertain talent in Jabrill Peppers, playing out of position, and another guy or two who could help.
An offensive line that looks set and should be solid.
That young tight end, David Njoku, drafted when he still wasn't old enough to drink, who is raw but with a high ceiling.
Corey Coleman, who can't stay healthy yet who still could be something, but otherwise a receiving corps with huge problems.
There's a need for a more dynamic running back.

And then there's quarterback.

It's too hard to tell on DeShone Kizer (Hue Jackson hasn't helped that), but there's a chance to get your quarterback in the next draft.

That's because the Browns have two first-round picks. And there are three second-rounders, which allows more chances to package some things and grab another first-rounder if need be. What's looking like another lousy season in 2017 means that Cleveland's own first-round and second-round picks will be high.

What do you think, new guy? How do you plan to proceed? Quarterback at the top of round one? A receiver with the other first-round pick? Move up for a running back at the end of round one, and use some of that massive salary cap room on a top corner?

Yeah, that's workable, thanks to the previous regime.

The new guys making those picks wouldn't have felt the pain that made all that possible, but someone had to feel it. You're feeling it now. The front office is feeling it now.

And that's one of the problems. We need to stop saying the Browns are doing this to the fans and understand they are trying to do this for the fans. Maybe you believe a long play by the front office is just a ploy for Haslam to keep them around for an extra year, but 1-21 sure is a strange strategy if you care about people thinking you're smart.

Jackson is desperately grasping for wins right now, looking for a quick Sunday fix and a bandage for the wound. But the front office is making you take your horrible-tasting medicine, because the long-term strategy is aimed toward, for the first time since the Browns returned, full health.

At least there is progress in the complaints.

Previous regimes failed with who they did pick, from Barkevious Mingo to Trent Richardson, Justin Gilbert to Brandon Weeden, Johnny Manziel to Cam Erving.


Now, the wails are about who wasn't picked -- Carson Wentz, Deshaun Watson and Malik Hooker. But you know the Browns could have only one of them, right? Trading the Wentz pick created the pick that could have been Watson or Hooker (but not both), a pick that was traded again. Jackson, by the way, wanted Hooker.

So the first-round receiver they'll draft next year for their first-round quarterback to throw to, he'll exist only because of that trade.

You're joking to yourself now that the Sashi guys, if they're around in 2018, would trade down again, but the new football hero that you imagine they'll hire, he'll pick the best QB around like those math boys were afraid to do. The cliched columns will write themselves.

But Brown and Paul DePodesta will take a quarterback high eventually or trade for a worthy veteran, just by the law of averages and common sense. Do you think they'll get to the end of a three-year teardown/rebuild and go, "Hey, we forgot to get a quarterback?"

So unless Kizer looks like a sure top-shelf starter by the end of this season, a new QB, picked somewhere in the top 10 (maybe at No. 1 the way things are going) will arrive and be surrounded by some talent, the way Wentz was in Philadelphia and Watson was in Houston, and the way neither of them would have been in Cleveland.

So they passed on Wentz, a move I think was born primarily out of a short draft prep time after they were hired in January, and a reasonable, but maybe wrong, contention that the roster was so barren, they needed quantity from that pick more than quality.

They passed on Watson, somehow viewed as a savior now when much of the national predraft analysis wondered if he was worth a first-round pick. Listen, I loved Watson, and if I had been picking for the Browns, after the Wentz trade I'd have taken Ohio State's Michael Thomas, not Coleman, at 15, and Watson would be throwing to Thomas in brown and orange right now.

But what if by next summer the Browns have added:

USC quarterback Sam Darnold, SMU receiver Courtland Sutton and Alabama running back Damien Harris to this offensive line, plus holdovers Coleman and Njoku; with a defense featuring Garrett, Ogbah, Jamie Collins and Peppers. All, save for Joe Thomas and Joel Bitonio on the O-line, acquired by this regime.

Would you be happy then? What makes you believe that won't be what actually happens? They targeted defense in the last draft and the offensive line in free agency. It's time for skill positions again.


The Philadelphia 76ers are projected as a playoff team this season, with a raft of young talent acquired only through incessant losing and repeated high drafting. Sam Hinkie, the GM who birthed the idea, is long gone, forced out in April 2016, and those who replaced him can act like all that talent arrived through their sheer genius, as opposed to Hinkie's calculated pain and plan.

Here in Cleveland, former Cavs GM Chris Grant wasn't around for the first Cleveland title in 52 years, but he acquired many of the picks (including the one that became Kyrie Irving) that helped form the nucleus around LeBron James that gave the legend something to work with.

That may be the fate of this Browns group, but their sacrifice will have been for you. Nobody plans for the future in the NFL because the present demands so much, usually a scalp.

But this front office went for a long-term teardown anyway. Was that the smartest thing they could have done to keep their jobs? Or were they thinking what was best for the organization first?

If they were allowed to take their extra draft picks with them if they are fired, you'd keep them forever. But the screechers who demand their pound of flesh know that win or lose, fire or keep, those extra picks aren't going anywhere.

We know -- you mock draft picks, too. That is, right up until draft day, when those picks can turn into future Watsons or Hookers and you'll scream yourself hoarse over them.

It still comes down to acquiring the right players, and there have been mistakes, from Kenny Britt to Kenny Britt, and Kenny Britt to Kenny Britt (and Dwayne Bowe). Maybe Coleman was a miss.

But really, you're most upset with late-round misses, like disappointing receiver Ricardo Louis, a mid-fourth round pick. Fourth-rounders miss. Or you're upset with the guys they didn't take.

Meanwhile, Ogbah, Carl Nassib, Shon Coleman, Joe Schobert, Derrick Kindred, Seth DeValve, Garrett, Peppers, Njoku, Kizer, Larry Ogunjobi and Caleb Brantley are out there playing from their first two drafts. Yet people act as if every pick has been a failure.

If they don't solve quarterback, fire them after the 2018 season. If you look at three drafts then and see bust after bust after bust, fire them after the 2018 season.

But don't panic mid-stream, the way Jackson is doing, just because you can't see the long-term plan that isn't nearly the failure you think it is so far.

Maybe Cleveland, after 19 years of football nothing, can't stomach another eight months of this, because planning is hard and screaming feels good.

Here's the thing Cleveland: You may not be strong enough to handle the plan. But you're going to reap the rewards anyway.

The guys who put it in place just may not be around to see it.

I saw a rapist say that to a victim on SVU.

I don't think that the FO and Hue are not going anywhere. And they should not be going anywhere.

We follow the plan. if we do that it will be another 2 or 3 more years before we become consistently a winner.

And by god it is going to be painful couple of years...But I still think we hold on and stay to the plan.

i like to say....pass...as in i pass on these guys...next

Vambo thanks bud. nice read and good to read something positive about our Browns team.

Report: Cleveland Browns looking to add another football executive

Sunday, October 15th 2017, 8:06 pm EDT
Posted by Mark Schwab, Sports Reporter/Anchor

CLEVELAND, OH (WOIO) -
According to a report from ProFootballTalk.com the Cleveland Browns are snooping around for a football guy for their front office should be refreshing to Browns fans ears.

It doesn’t necessarily mean Jimmy Haslam is looking to blow it all up again, it might mean that he’s just looking to add another football voice to an analytics-heavy room that appears to be struggling in it’s second year.

ProFootballTalk &#10004; @ProFootballTalk
0-6 this year and 1-21 since 2016, Browns quietly begin reaching out to football executives for potential hire http://wp.me/p14QSB-aqnd
6:39 PM - Oct 15, 2017

It’s hard to evaluate draft classes until a few years have passed, but you don’t need to wait a few years to see that Carson Wentz and Deshaun Watson are good.

That’s the problem, the Browns didn’t think they would be. The analytics team decided Wentz would not be a top-20 quarterback, so they moved the draft pick.

Clearly they have been wrong. Wentz is one of the best young quarterbacks in the game already.

Jimmy Haslam has to see that. If his front office told him that they thought Wentz was a good player, but the team had so many holes that they needed to accrue picks, that’s another thing.

At least then they would have demonstrated that they could evaluate Wentz as a quarterback. Instead they missed badly. And appeared to have missed badly on Watson.

Two years in a row where the franchise’s biggest hole could have finally been filled, but the guys calling the shots said “nope.”

Should the analytics team be fired? That’s up to the owner. He could bring in a football guy just to add another voice.

There really is a place for analytics in sports, but there has to be a balance with scouting.

The Browns have scouts, and have football guys in their front office, but it’s reasonable at this point to suggest their voice might not be measured enough.

http://www.cleveland19.com/story/3660184...tball-executive

Shouldn't this be in the " Cleveland Browns looking to add another football executive" thread with the other 5 versions of this story?

The Browns' plan isn't working, the rift is real, and Jimmy Haslam still needs help to save it: Mary Kay Cabot
link

[quote][/quote]

The Browns' plan isn't working, the rift is real, and Jimmy Haslam still needs help to save it: Mary Kay Cabot

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/jimmy_haslams_plan_isnt_workin.html
......................
Jimmy Haslam's plan for the Browns isn't working, the discord between the coaching staff and top brass is real, and he still needs an experienced talent evaluator to come in and help save it.
...........
They keep their own good players such as center Alex Mack, Mitchell Schwartz and receiver Taylor Gabriel.
..........
You take the franchise quarterback when he's staring you in the face, and worry about the details later.
..........
Furthermore, the blown picks and missed opportunities have created so much discord between the front office and coaching staff that they can't co-exist beyond this season in their current state.
..............
Haslam's first mistake was putting Brown in charge of all roster decisions when that's not his area of expertise. He's a lawyer and salary-cap expert who came from a Jaguars team that didn't have a winning season in his final five years there.
................
If Brown were to have control of the roster, he needed an accomplished evaluator by his side. Instead, Haslam brought in DePodesta from the Mets. If DePodesta wanted to break into football, so be it. But Haslam put a baseball guy in charge of his football team.
......................
DePodesta was still coming up the steep learning curve when the Browns made the egregious error of passing on Wentz last year. To make matters worse, he told ESPN Cleveland that the Browns didn't think Wentz would be a top-20 quarterback, effectively announcing that their ability to evaluate the position is suspect.
...............
The Browns did hire their "football guy" in Berry, but he was a rising 28-year-old talent and former Colts pro scouting coordinator who was nowhere near ready to be a team's leading football authority.
.............
The other major flaw on the executive team was that Haslam put himself in charge of overseeing it, a job he's not qualified for.
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A deep divide
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The lack of an experienced top personnel exec has created a power vacuum over the roster, including the draft.

When the coaches know more about football talent than the top personnel execs, that's a problem.

When the two sides clash, there's no one qualified to break the tie.
..................

The coaching staff and front office are also at odds over the lack of receivers and other key positions. Both Kizer, who will likely start again Sunday, and Kevin Hogan have found out the hard way that it's tough to win a game with few or no quality targets.
....................
Free-agent pickup Kenny Britt (groin) is on the mend and in the doghouse, but might have to play this week for lack of anyone better. In the past two seasons, the Browns have blown chances to keep or acquire Terrelle Pryor, Taylor Gabriel, Jeremy Maclin, Marvin Jones and more.
...................
A good veteran could've won this year or at least kept the seat warm for Kizer. Instead, Jackson went into the season with three young QBs who had never won a game as a starter. While the front office still likes Cody Kessler, Jackson has no plans to play him.
..................


Above, all points I have brought up over the last 1yr and 10 months.

All points I have been highly criticized for.

Needless to say, I agree with the points made above.

This team could be so much better than they are at this point in time, had some key mistakes, most outlined above, not been made by our inexperienced owner and front office.

Peyton Manning was in town last week for a fundraiser to support former teammate Anthony Gonzalez who is running for congress in Ohio's 16th congressional district.

The only connection was that both Manning and Haslam contributed to Gonzalez's campaign. As wonderful as it would be, Manning is not signing up for this mess.

There is absolutely zero indication it was the Browns draft that Manning sat in on. That's just a teaser to string the audience along. The most logical assumption would be that he sat in on the Broncos draft.

Peyton Manning, other sports figures get behind Anthony Gonzalez's bid for Congress

Gonzalez has fundraising haul in run for Congress

No Thanks jimmy, your team sucks

7 positive things about the Browns this season

Posted October 18, 2017 at 05:00 AM | Updated October 18, 2017 at 04:59 PM

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/10/7_positive_browns.html

Believe it or not, there are some things to be positive about this season

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Cleveland Browns have been taking heat from all sides since their loss in Houston on Sunday that dropped them to 0-6 for the second consecutive season. The criticism is well-earned. It’s not just that they aren’t winning, they aren’t even competitive. They’ve trailed by two or more scores at halftime of four of their six games.

Monday morning I wrote that there’s plenty of blame to go across the entire organization, and that’s definitely the case.

There are still 10 games left, though, and there has to be something to watch the rest of the season.

So, here are some positive things as the Browns get ready for the Titans.

1. Myles Garrett is living up to the hype

Garrett played just half of the Browns defensive snaps on Sunday and he’s up for NFL rookie of the week. He collected five tackles, including two for loss, and had a sack. He also drew a holding penalty as he came around the edge and still got up and chased down Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson on a scramble.

This followed a debut in which he played just 19 snaps and collected two sacks, including one on the first play of his career.

It’s nearly impossible to not have watched Garrett the past two weeks and think about the impact he will have once he’s 100 percent.

2. Duke Johnson has become a weapon

Johnson has been the Browns’ best offensive weapon. Running backs coach Kirby Wilson said last Friday that the coaching staff holds their breath every time the ball is in Johnson’s hands because of what he’s capable of doing. He’s been strong this season as a runner and receiver and has been slippery in the open field.

3. The run defense has been good

When is the last time you could say that about the Browns? They rank sixth in rushing yards per game and are tied with Denver for the league lead at three yards per attempt.

The Browns definitely got more stout in the middle of their line by drafting Larry Ogunjobi, and while Emmanuel Ogbah has been disappointing as a pass rusher this season, he’s been able to get good push from the edge. Jamie Collins helps here, too, as he generally knows where to go to either make a tackle in a hole or continue stretching a play to the sideline.

4. Jason McCourty is making plays

The veteran cornerback has been the polar opposite of the Kenny Britt signing. He has three interceptions, including one in consecutive weeks, and had a pick-six against Houston. If Pro Football Focus is your thing, McCourty is the website’s top-graded cornerback.

McCourty has solidified one of the outside cornerback spots and has taken on a leadership role in the locker room.

5. David Njoku has real potential

There are few players this team has drafted who don't come with a lot of questions, but Njoku has shown flashes that his size and athleticism are real weapons. It’s important to remember that Njoku just turned 21 in July and has a lot of growing to do to become a consistent threat in the receiving game, but he’s already scored three touchdowns, and touchdowns have been a rare commodity for this team.

6. Joe Thomas is a freak of nature

Thomas should not still be as good as he is considering how long he’s been playing and the fact he has yet to miss a single snap in his career. Yet there he is, lining up at left tackle on every play and still possessing the ability to erase pass rushers.

Oh, and he’s as engaging and entertaining as ever. He’s easily the best thing the Browns have going for them.

7. They still have all those draft picks

Future draft picks can be fool's gold -- we've all learned that -- but regardless of your thoughts on the plan or the execution of said plan, the Browns have traded out of picking some really good players to acquire future picks and there's no going back on that now.

Whoever is making all those picks will have the opportunity to add real talent.

Mac, you really need to find out whose jet it was (or at least arranged for the flight)

I wonder if that is actually the best reason for Manning to get on board.

- Almost unfathomable quantity of upcoming draft selections.
- Zero expectations.
- Very young team that does possess some key talent, particularly on the OL and DL. As they say, great teams are built in the trenches.
- A lot of cap room to play with.
- An identifiable, relatable figure who would undoubtedly get a lot of support from fans and media.
- Close personal friend of the team's owner.

That's a good situation for Manning, in my opinion.

Thanks, Vambo... Much better reading and more current than the previous MKC rehash.

Interesting tidbit I just came across:

Berkshire Hathaway purchase[edit]
On October 3, 2017, it was announced that Warren Buffett-controlled Berkshire Hathaway will acquire 38.6% of Pilot Flying J, with plans to increase its stake to 80% in 2023. The Haslam family and FJ Management will retain ownership stakes until then, upon which the Haslam family will retain the remaining 20% and FJ Management will withdraw altogether. The Haslam family will retain control of day-to-day operations of the company.[3]

- from Wiki...

7 positives seems fitting seeing as we’re about to receive our 7th loss on Sunday.

So what your saying is that the players are throwing the games on purpose so as to avoid being in the lead and kneeling at the end of the game to run the clock out? I can see that. We wouldn't want people to miss the social justice message because they thought the pre-game kneeling was merely pulling a Joe Namath predicting a win.

Very savy.

I don't think I ever criticized the points as a whole. Maybe a few. On the whole, I agreed with most. My problem was the constant bumping of a thread that became redundant. You can only say the same thing so many ways.

This thread has some meaning at this point, so it has it's place.

I'd like the idea of Manning on board. Not sure where he would fit...as team President maybe. I heard Haslam is talking about giving Manning a share in the team. Even 3% could be worth 30-40 mil Either way, Manning would be the guy with the final word on roster and draft decisions. Maybe bump Sashi up to team President, or bump him out? The key is we don't just start over. We have to build on what we have, and we do have some parts.

I also like the idea that from time to time he could stop in the QB room and talk football with those guys. He couldn't be the QB coach, not enough time for that, but he could help in the film room.

You guys crack me up! You say the front office needs a football guy because they lack experience and then sign right off on a big name that has no experience at being an executive because he played football.

Matt Millen played football and he wasn't that great of an executive.

Put Peyton in at QB coach and I'm right there on board.

It doesn't really matter, because he was in town to help his buddy run for office and not to talk with the Browns anyway.

bingo.

The Cleveland Browns are 4-34 since the introduction of their uniform redesign in 2015.

https://twitter.com/History_Cle/status/921052881402384384

LMAO you guys act like Sashi is running the club with a IRON fist and overruling everybody Nothing could be further from the truth but I am not going to waste my breath again explaining the truth to those of you who want to believe in fairy tales made up in your own minds.

I hate them. Must be it.

No, it's stupid to say that!!!