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I think what the Raiders have taught us is that the best time to judge a total rebuild like the Browns is after a year and a half. Reggie McKenzie was hired after the 2011 season. He first fired Hue Jackson as the head coach and hired Dennis Allen to replace him. The Raiders were terrible for three years (2012, 2013, and 2014). Dennis Allen was fired four games into the 2014 season. Reggie McKenzie then hired Jack del Rio as head coach in 2015 and the Raiders went 7-9. In 2016 Oakland went 12-4. This is not a one year and six games rebuild. It was always going to take much longer. Anyone judging anything to do with this team at this point is being very short-sighted and is being ruled by emotions instead of logical thought.
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...and then they lost their QB for a couple games, and they're on a 4 game losing streak in 2017.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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...and then they lost their QB for a couple games, and they're on a 4 game losing streak in 2017. Just like judging our team after one year and six games is silly, so is judging another team after six games.
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Bill Barnwell‏Verified account
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I think what the Raiders have taught us is that the best time to judge a total rebuild like the Browns is after a year and a half.
12:58 PM - 19 Oct 2017
If the Browns wait until after the 2017 season to begin judging the rebuild, they could be in competition with several other teams searching for additional front office help.
The Browns could be close to Barnwell's standard of 1.5 yrs, if they have already started to search for some additional help for our front office.
If the Browns do plan to hire someone...hire the best before other teams get a chance to hire the best talent.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Barnwell was being sarcastic.
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You guys crack me up! You say the front office needs a football guy because they lack experience and then sign right off on a big name that has no experience at being an executive because he played football.
Matt Millen played football and he wasn't that great of an executive.
Put Peyton in at QB coach and I'm right there on board.
It doesn't really matter, because he was in town to help his buddy run for office and not to talk with the Browns anyway. Where do you get your inside info?
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Burn them and call a witch doctor to oversee it!
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...and then they lost their QB for a couple games, and they're on a 4 game losing streak in 2017. Just like judging our team after one year and six games is silly, so is judging another team after six games. Why is it okay for guys like you to bash Hue all the time and yet it isn't okay to question the FO? I am going to say this AGAIN: No matter what some of the "fans" on this message board say, I guarantee you Hue has way more respect in NFL circles than Sashi and Depo do. And it ain't even close.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 10/19/17 07:31 PM.
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I was more pointing out that... even once you've turned that corner, ish still happens.
Not sure if we're saying the same thing or not... :-p
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
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Bill Barnwell‏Verified account
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I think what the Raiders have taught us is that the best time to judge a total rebuild like the Browns is after a year and a half.
12:58 PM - 19 Oct 2017
If the Browns wait until after the 2017 season to begin judging the rebuild, they could be in competition with several other teams searching for additional front office help.
The Browns could be close to Barnwell's standard of 1.5 yrs, if they have already started to search for some additional help for our front office.
If the Browns do plan to hire someone...hire the best before other teams get a chance to hire the best talent. Lolz.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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This is the worst front office in the NFL.
Sashi and the baseball strat o Matic god have compiled a 1 and 21 and record in 1.5 yrs
And this franchise has by double digits more than any other NFL team
Yet we are supposed to trust the process
PROCESS OF WHAT ?????
I swear some stand by any Browns front office regime and when they get shown the door here come the excuses
Yeah they deserve a pass.
Go past The Berea Fairgrounds on your way to the airport and don't come back
This team continues to reinvent ineptness
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Why is it okay for guys like you to bash Hue all the time and yet it isn't okay to question the FO? We've been over this. Show me one place where I've bashed Hue Jackson. (There isn't one. Also, you don't know how to use the search function.)
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This is the worst front office in the NFL.
Sashi and the baseball strat o Matic god have compiled a 1 and 21 and record in 1.5 yrs They blew up the roster. Everyone should have known the record would be awful. I know it's tough to hear, but you have to give them time to turn it around.
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LOL..........okay.
And I see you have a little fan club.
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You guys crack me up! You say the front office needs a football guy because they lack experience and then sign right off on a big name that has no experience at being an executive because he played football.
Matt Millen played football and he wasn't that great of an executive.
Put Peyton in at QB coach and I'm right there on board.
It doesn't really matter, because he was in town to help his buddy run for office and not to talk with the Browns anyway. Where do you get your inside info? The intertubes. http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/10/peyton_manning_other_sports_fi.html
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This is the worst front office in the NFL.
Sashi and the baseball strat o Matic god have compiled a 1 and 21 and record in 1.5 yrs They blew up the roster. Everyone should have known the record would be awful. I know it's tough to hear, but you have to give them time to turn it around. Analyze this: If the Browns were to somehow right the ship and finish this season with another 1-15 record, Sashi and the gang would have to go 9-7 in each of the next 14 seasons just to reach a career mark of .500. Nothing like reaching respectability by 2031.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Your a smart gentlemen
I know you can understand this
At home so far the Browns are losing by a av. Margin
Of 10 pts per game
On the road it's worse.it's a average of 15 points per game
They have lost to all kinds of qbs this yr..all pros...rookies..qbs with sub .500 record for their career
Red headed qbs
It's the NFL
It's built for teams to win sooner than later
That 5 yrs it takes to turn it around
That thinking is gone
Browns always pick in the top 7 every year
HAVE THE Most Room SALARY Cap Wise
Yet still can't win
Not even by luck
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We have the money and picks to change this franchise forever. Let's say we acquired Jimmy G and a stud corner with a plethora of cap space.
Now we enter the draft with 2top 10 picks and a bunch of 2nd rounders. Fo n coaching staff has made a ton of mistakes but we are in a truly envious position.
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quote above by Iluvyourxstrippertoo: Yet still can't win Not even by luck This is amazingly true. The Browns really have been "beating the odds".
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From someone who writes about the Browns and allegedly has sources inside Berea. Also, this isn't the first time he has said this RE: Wentz. Others have too-- take it for what it is worth but it also backs up comments from the FO on leveraging Hue for identifying a QB. Hue didn't want him. The FO wasn't gonna give him a QB he didn't want, so they turned it into 9 players, a 1st and 2nd.
They can get a QB.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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"I have to evaluate people on their ability to do their job over a long period of time, and that doesn't satisfy short-term thinkers," Bisciotti said. "That frustrates me to no end, but I understand it. I'm not telling you or anybody else how to be a fan; I'm just not going to let you influence how I'm going to be an owner." http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21091...ens-coach-gm-qbThat’s the full article. That’s the ravens owner talking about having confidence in his coach, gm, and qb. The paragraph I posted is how I feel haslam is finally going about this team. And I think we as browns fans should be patient. These was a complete breakdown. We were destined to suck for the next 2-3 years. Might as well let this thing play out. I know it’s tough but it’s not like we really have a choice if we are to support this team.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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Patience is the key... but seeing improvement, minimal as it "may" be, should be the reward to that patience. The improvement on the field is not visible, in or on any level.
We could say more openly we're regressing.
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I understand what Bisciotti is saying but there is one huge difference; the Ravens have been winners in the past with these people they have we have not. It's easier for him and his team. We haven't won and we still really don't know if we are on the right track. I believe we are but time will tell. JMO
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"I have to evaluate people on their ability to do their job over a long period of time, and that doesn't satisfy short-term thinkers," Bisciotti said. "That frustrates me to no end, but I understand it. I'm not telling you or anybody else how to be a fan; I'm just not going to let you influence how I'm going to be an owner." http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/21091...ens-coach-gm-qbThat’s the full article. That’s the ravens owner talking about having confidence in his coach, gm, and qb. The paragraph I posted is how I feel haslam is finally going about this team. And I think we as browns fans should be patient. These was a complete breakdown. We were destined to suck for the next 2-3 years. Might as well let this thing play out. I know it’s tough but it’s not like we really have a choice if we are to support this team. you really comparing us to the ravens? a team that has been in the playoffs 7 out of the last 9 years? lmao...
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
- Theodore Roosevelt
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yea.. took the team over and 3 years later fired a superbowle winning coach because he only went to the playoffs once in the three years after he took over lol... wonder what he would do here...
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Patience is the key... but seeing improvement, minimal as it "may" be, should be the reward to that patience. The improvement on the field is not visible, in or on any level.
We could say more openly we're regressing. I agree but disagree. Our defense seems to be moving forward in some aspects but needs a few secondary pieces. Our offense will be hamstrung until we get a legit playcaller and maybe (!) a receiver. We have good, young (and legend that is JT) players who just need to get experience. Learning on the job is tough in the NFL. I hate watching us lose. However we have a young core, and some quality therein. I will say I don't ever recall a rebuild of this nature in my time watching the NFL. Ever. I may be completely wrong. Keeping Haden, Greco this year may have helped. We have gone down a path. Pointless turning back now.
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This is the worst front office in the NFL.
Sashi and the baseball strat o Matic god have compiled a 1 and 21 and record in 1.5 yrs They blew up the roster. Everyone should have known the record would be awful. I know it's tough to hear, but you have to give them time to turn it around. Analyze this: If the Browns were to somehow right the ship and finish this season with another 1-15 record, Sashi and the gang would have to go 9-7 in each of the next 14 seasons just to reach a career mark of .500. Nothing like reaching respectability by 2031. Or go 15-1 twice .
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We have gone down a path. Pointless turning back now. Agreed, drobs. Too late to turn back and besides, I feel that we are closer to the "end" of the rebuild than the beginning...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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We have gone down a path. Pointless turning back now. Agreed, drobs. Too late to turn back and besides, I feel that we are closer to the "end" of the rebuild than the beginning... I am hoping this to be correct. We have some good young talent. We still need wins to start a turn in mentality. We deserve some luck. Worst way to be.
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Jay Gruden on Carson Wentz: I don’t know how he got to PhiladelphiaMichael David Smith,ProFootball Talk on NBC Sports Thu, Oct 19 Jay Gruden and Browns fans have something in common: They both wish Carson Wentz didn’t go to Philadelphia. Gruden, the Washington coach whose team is preparing to face Wentz’s Eagles, lavished praise on Wentz today and perhaps took a little shot at the Browns for trading the pick that the Eagles used to draft Wentz. “I think he’s progressed at a rate as fast as anybody I’ve seen really,” Gruden said. “His ability to make plays in the pocket, his ability to stay in the pocket in the face of a rush and still deliver balls accurately, his command of the offense. I think he’s already proven this short in his career that he’s one of the top quarterbacks in the league, quite frankly, and he’s going to be for a long time. And I don’t know how he got to Philadelphia. And I’m very upset about that.” Wentz got to Philadelphia because the Browns traded the second overall pick to the Eagles, and the Eagles used that pick on Wentz. As the Browns continue to search for a franchise quarterback, questions continue to be asked about why the Browns traded away the Wentz pick last year, not to mention the pick the Texans used to draft Deshaun Watson this year. Jay Gruden would much rather face Wentz once every four years with the Browns than twice a year with the Eagles. https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jay-gruden-carson-wentz-don-210616005.html
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I wish our head coach wanted Wentz, but I understand not wanting to stick a head coach with a guy he doesn't want. It is organizational failure that Wentz is not on our team (and I didn't want him at the time). From Mike Silver (Hue Jackson's best bud):   http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...-with-no-1-pick
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Hmmmmm.........which is more definitive? Carson Wentz is not a top-20 quarterback, say the Browns
By The700Level.com September 05, 2016 8:10 PM 14 Comments (takes deep breath) Tim Couch, Ty Detmer, Doug Pederson, Spergon Wynn, Kelly Holcomb, Jeff Garcia, Luke McCown, Trent Dilfer, Charlie Frye, Derek Anderson ... ... (panting heavily) Brady Quinn, Ken Dorsey, Bruce Gradkowski, Jake Delhomme, Colt McCoy ... ... (wildly out of breath) Seneca Wallace, Thad Lewis, Brandon Weeden, Brian Hoyer, Josh McCown, Johnny Manziel, Connor Shaw, Austin Davis. That's quite the ragtag list of quarterbacks. And the one thing they all have in common is that they have each started a game for the Cleveland Browns since 1999. One quarterback that won't be on that list is Carson Wentz, who the Eagles selected with the No. 2 pick in 2016, which they received from Cleveland. So why would a team with such terrible QB play trade away a pick that could solve their disastrous history at the position? Well, according to Browns chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta (the guy Jonah Hill played in "Moneyball,") the team did not think Wentz has what it takes to be a top-20 quarterback in the NFL. And if there's one thing the Browns are really good at, it's evaluating quarterback talent.
"Even though you have a desperate need for one, you have to resist the temptation of taking that guy just because you have a need if you don't believe he's one of those 20 guys at the end of the day," DePodesta told Tony Grossi of WKNR-850 AM. "I think that's the hardest part, just maintaining your discipline because you have the need. That's what we did this year."Best of luck, Cleveland. "Again, it comes down to individual evaluation of a player," DePodesta said. "We will not always be right on those type of things." Yeah, no kidding. http://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/the700level/carson-wentz-not-top-20-quarterback-say-browns
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Lovely. Thanks for posting that. 
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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It is clear that neither Jackson nor the front office wanted Carson Wentz. That is why I said it was an organizational failure.
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I agree with all of this: A few thoughts on the Browns, as one does after midnight on Friday. (1/x) 1) The idea that the Browns rebuild needs to show improvement *right now* is silly. Oakland went 4-12, 4-12, 3-13, and *then* 7-9. 4-12 is better than 1-15, granted, but are the Browns appreciably different if they catch a break against the Colts and start 1-5 vs. 0-6? Realistically, you need three years to judge any rebuild. The Browns aren’t even halfway through year two. 2) Judging the Watson trade as awful for the Browns is way premature given that Cleveland hasn’t even made a fair number of those picks yet. I think Watson looks great, but it’s also been five games. Remember that everyone ripped the Rams to shreds for the RG3 trade after Year 1. It’s true trading down to amass extra picks doesn’t help if you whiff on the picks, but that as an argument against trading down is bad. Saying “Picks don’t win games, players do” is like saying “Paper money doesn’t feed you, food does”. One helps you get the other! If they get the first overall pick next year (61.4% chance now!) and draft a QB and it works, nobody cares about Watson or Wentz elsewhere. And if they had drafted Watson, given the bottom-3 receiving corps the Browns are currently sporting, I don’t think he’d be looking great. Criticizing them for trading down is like hitting on one hot stock in a down market and telling your friend he was dumb to max out his 401k. 3) And if you want to do early evals, Myles Garrett’s a stud. 3 sacks, 6 QB knockdowns, and a drawn holding penalty on 51 snaps so far.
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To add to the point about Watson not looking as good for the Browns as he does the Texans, it is worth noting that Nuk Hopkins and Will Fuller have 11 of his 15 touchdowns and almost half his total passing yards.
Great players make great plays. That's not to suggest he'd look awful here, but he wouldn't be doing the same.
I'm also annoyed it is only us taking heat for it.
1. Like there were not a bunch of top 10 teams who could have used his services. We're not the only team who passed. The 49ers are 0-6, too, and they passed on him for Solomon Thomas. We passed on him for Myles Garrett, Jabrill Peppers and a 2018 first round pick - not to mention later adding Kizer, who ain't ready but has undoubtedly flashed potential. It's just a typical 'LolBrowns" narrative.
2. Teams like Chicago gave up multiple selections to take someone else. At least we got two first round selections to not take him.
3. Trubisky, Mahomes and Watson cost multiple high value selections. Kizer cost the #52 pick. Of course he doesn't look as good as they do in year one. That's why we got him cheaper. The future is what matters most, not the present, because it's unlikely any of these teams are playoff bound, and none of them are going to a Superbowl.
4. Revisionist history is annoying. It's weird how post-draft, the draft is considered such a no-brainer. It's so easy to look back and say, "Here is a comprehensive list of all the players the Browns missed on." Every barstool prophet can tell you he totally loved Tom Brady out of college.
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You would either have your QB or you wouldn't. Claiming his stats wouldn't be as good here is simply an excuse. There's a lot of that going around these days. Evaluating how your FO has drafted isn't revisionist history. That's just a term people use to try to stop people from evaluating others performances. It's weak.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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I think if anyone is watching, just paying attention, using the eye test...then I would forecast the following.
--Wentz is a legit franchise guy who is going to be good a long time. Even if he were in Cleveland, I think you would see it.
--I think the league will catch up to Watson and his status as a franchise guy will get murky over the next couple of seasons. I think he would be doing poorly in Cleveland. Love that he's a leader and plays his best when it matters most but he makes some head scratching throws that just haven't caught up to him yet. They will and he'll have to adjust. The proof will be in the pudding then.
I would still take either guy with an obvious preference toward Wentz. But I think with Watson's makeup he will figure it out. Would rather have him than Peppers and Houston's #1 next year.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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