DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Should the Front Office get a pass?

I understand where you're coming from, but I think any football player is going to undoubtedly perform at a different level dependant on the scheme and overall level of talent around him.

My point isn't to suggest that Watson is merely a product of his environment, but simply that his performance would not be at the level it currently is. That doesn't mean he's not good; I'm sure we can all attest our desire to put high calibre players around the quarterback, and we feel that way for the very reasons I've mentioned.

I'm not attempting to stop evaluation of others, I'm awarding due credit where it deserves. I'm not so hell bent on attacking the front office that I'm going to pretend that DeAndre Hopkins and Will Fuller haven't influenced their quarterback's performance. They're incredible players, I'd love to have them in Cleveland, and they deserve that recognition.

We would have a quarterback with Watson, but I'm not sure we offer the surroundings that would make it as definitive a conclusion as it is with Watson in Houston.

Actually I wasn't trying to be specific to Watson. Wentz would work here in my theory as well. You either have the talent at the QB position or you don't. You either have a franchise QB or you don't.

To me, I understand that neither Watson or Wentz would have the stats they currently have. However, each player, including the QB position, have their own talent and skill set. You either have that player on your roster or you don't. You either drafted that player or you didn't.

To me, that's like saying we should never have drafted Joe Thomas because the rest of the OL wasn't talented then. You simply don't pass on a good QB. Using the fact that his stats wouldn't be as good here sounds like an excuse why you turned your back on a talented QB.

I'm no draft guru. I do and have studied the OL quite a bit. But when it comes to QB's, I wanted Bridgewater. I REALLY pimped Wentz! And while I didn't pimp Watson, I did say if I were forced to draft a QB high last year, that I would draft Watson. (Not very high praise I know. lol)

I simply don't like the excuse that a guys stat line wouldn't be as good here as some justification to pass on great talent.

Sadly, yes I do think that. What makes anyone think they will ever draft a franchise QB? We know they passed on a 2 QB's already and that they value quantity over quality. Anytime a franchise guy comes up, the Harvard boys will be drooling at how many draft picks they can trade down for instead of addressing a huge hole on this team.

John Elway would like to have a word with you.

That's the trap we may fall into. Thinking that because Elway managed to do it, that means Manning will have the same results. Nobody knows if that's true or not.

The fact they were both great qb’s is really the end of the commonalities here ....

Elway took over a team with a lot of talent on it ..... we have some but nea where’s near what Elway had ...

Elway had a good org. Structure in place with good football people to learn from ... we have Berry and one other football dude in our fo ... the rest ... not much for Payton to learn and grow from ...

WAY DIFFERENT SITUATIONS ....

I would take Payton over nothing ... but i’d Prefer an experienced football guy ... if manning does get a football job in the fo ... he needs someone strong to learn from ... we have no one ...

j/c:

#WentzWarriors

Peyton Mannings' name does not inspire confidence, in my mind, in any way, of future good fortunes for the Browns.

He used to play quarterback, heck, it's in the pretty recent past too.
He's had 2 famous endorsement deals, where he's been on television for advertisments.

Peyton, is from some famous family of football history, but that's not in running a franchise, or coaching a franchise, or being a GM type.

About the only thing Peyton Manning's name inspires in my mind, is that he's probably.

He's probably just similar to Holmgren, and Mangini, in their understanding and longterm commitment to Cleveland Football.

I mean to say. What possibly, about Peyton Manning, makes anyone think, that Peyton Manning has been caring about Cleveland Football, any time in the past,

and unless there's something, then how could anyone be sure he'd stick with Cleveland Football for the long term, and not just be another face passing through town, which benefits the big picture nothing, but only tends to put a brand new face on a brand new plan that goes nowhere fast.

Good grief. They'd might as well just stick with the current group, then to add another face, that's inexperienced, and has no Cleveland roots.

But. In spite of all of that ^.

I still firmly believe, that there is no single person that can change the outcome of wins vs losses, on gameday,

and get the monkey off the back of this team, then the head coach.

Some say the Browns can't win because of inexperience and lack of talent.

I think if the coaches aren't putting the players in the right positions that's part of it too.

Elway is not doing things on his own. He hired a bunch of longtime people to help make decisions (like Tom Heckert).

We know a few things about Peyton Manning. He works hard, he is smart, and he knows a lot about playing quarterback (and he loves money). Hopefully he would surround himself with other smart people if he is to run a team.

(Side note: John Elway doesn't have final say over decisions with the Broncos. Joe Ellis, their President and CEO, does.)

I can't help but wonder if Manning's name keeps coming up because we're in somewhat of an awkward time to be considering a front office overhaul, assuming the reports of the Browns reaching out to executives is correct.

A lot of the rising GM candidates over the last few years have either been promoted with their own team, signed by another or their team has somewhat taken a step backwards via questionable decisions - it doesn't mean that individual was responsible for those decisions, but we never really know, and it adds a red-flag. Who would have thought Arizona, Tampa, Tennessee, Dallas and Oakland would be .500 or less, they were supposed to be teams on a red-hot rise. Meanwhile, teams like Seattle, Green Bay and Washington have somewhat stagnated, assembling teams but not really getting much further - largely still winning because of their quarterbacks dragging the team.

I've somewhat been looking around at the possibilities and nobody has me standing up and screaming. Looking at what others have written regarding potential candidates, nobody else seems to be doing so either.

Could be why Manning is such an interesting name. We're still waiting for the next group of hot shots to reveal themselves. It's worse when some, such as Eliot Wolf (DPP, Green Bay) are said to be disinterested in moving because they're viewed as a succession plan for a current GM. I have seen some really good things regarding Packers Senior Personnel Executive, Alonzo Highsmith, but things seem to have died down on that front.

I'm not sure what to make of it. It seems up in the air regarding who could be a legitimate target.

I do not know if there is any truth to the Manning rumors and I don't know if he would be a good addition to a FO.

I think I do know some things about him due to his playing days and reputation. Such as:

--he is a tireless worker and he won't pull a Holmgren. I am almost positive he would attack the job w/intensity and would prepare himself to be the best he can be.

--he would hold not only himself accountable, but he would demand accountability from all of the people around him.

--he is intelligent and would be a great face of a franchise.

--his attention to detail is legendary and not only will it behoove him, it will also rub off on others.

I think those are strong attributes and they make me think that he will be successful at whatever he chooses to do.

We could, well, we have done worse than him. Good list, kind of intangibles driven. If choices are not panning out, then we should wonder why. I like what does to upgrade process and people around him.

Yes Bard, good catch. While he may lack the experience, he does possess the intangibles.

I think if this FO had 10 years experience, they'd be brilliant but they outsmarted themselves to start out. Get some NFL help and get a QB with some play makers!!!

I haven't read this thread but keep seeing the title. I have been thinking about it and here is what I came up with:

I don't think that the front office should get a pass, but I am postponing judgement until next off-season plays out.

I can understand that they didn't feel the team was ready to add a new young QB. Whether that was the best way to go is yet to be determined. But they have to see now how important the Qb position is. I want to see how they address it. If they are aggressive and do a good job then I will be okay with them.

Myles Garrett is a guy that offenses have to game plan for. His mere presence makes the defense better. I hope that this FO recognizes this and also recognizes that we do not have anyone like that on offense. We need players like that on offense.

If they address both of those issues in the off-season (using both free agency and the draft) then I will be okay with them. If they again fail to fix the Qb problem and do not add offensive playmakers then I will be jumping on the fire the FO bandwagon. But for now I am going to wait and suffer and hope.

This team had very little talent when they stripped it bare to rebuild it. They certainly made mistakes to be sure. However, it does seem like they learn from them. I hate the product out there now. I hate that they undervalue the WR position but at the same time they did use a high first round pick on one(even though he was not the one I wanted and didn't fit what Hue said he wants in a WR) so it's not like they have totally ignored it. Hopefully they can find one in this next draft.

Far as I am concerned, I knew they would need a pass on the first two years so this horrible year is not a real surprise to me.

More fun times:

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1059415/sashi-brown-is-promoted-vp-ops#Post1059415

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...nce#Post1068640

If ZERO changes are made to the front office (specifically bringing in a guy who actually knows something about evaluating NFL caliber talent) then I don't see how ANYTHING changes for the Browns. It doesn't matter how many draft picks you have if you continue to light them on fire.

I wonder if Sashi still thinks passing on Wentz was a good idea? SMH

Plenty of blame to go around. FO, Hue, Wylie, Saunders, Tabor.

we don't have any scouts this year?

As far as the WRs issue goes, I would bet dollars to donuts that analytics says you can get by with average WRs... I think that's why they drafted out of that class 4 guys who were athletic and had a history of being productive. I think we've seen examples to support that on the field in places like NE and even here with the Smurfs under Flip.

The major drawback in that however is who is throwing them the ball? We clearly don't have Brady, and we don't even have an experienced guy like McCown.

I have a hunch that WR is a lower priority for them to date, not because they don't think they are important, but rather it's a position that given the right players, has a shorter turn around time to get something productive out of them therefore they can be one of the last pieces to the puzzle.

The FO fired the scouts who wanted Wentz.

Hue was the only coach who braved the weather to workout Wentz. He was not on the Wentz train and was part of the decision to pass on him.

Do you have any proof whatsoever that any of our scouts wanted Wentz, or are you making that up?

I am willing to give them a pass...here is why.

Our defense was horrible - under pettine/farmer a def mind and a horrible GM (maybe the worst I have ever seen) - we had one of the worst defenses I ever watched. We had old, aging, here for the money players that DID NOT play hard, nor earn a single dollar of their check.

In just two years, we have completely gutted the entire team. We have nothing but young players (outside a few vets)

In just two years, we have seen the FO SOLEY address the defensive side of the ball with draft picks and FA (outside a few hole fillers on offense and the line) In just two years the defense has become quite solid, and looks to be improving each game. We have seen some playmakers (BBC, Kirksey, Collins, Ogbah, etc) start to emerge, and we even see what looks like could be a perennial pro/all pro candidate in Myles.

The believe there has been a plan (which we have not have or lacked the ability to stick too since we came back) - that plan was to build the defense, then focus on the offense. Drafting Wentz, or Watson, or whoever with our first picks would go against that plan (I personally wanted Watson more than any other QB that has come out in 5 years).

Now you can disagree with this plan, you can say its a stupid plan, but its a plan and it seems to be what they are sticking by. I have seen improvement in the defense....I don't think anyone can argue there has not been an a steady and FAST improvement.

That to me, gives them the benefit of the doubt to address the offense beginning this next offseason. We started to see that this last year on the offensive line, and I believe you will see it heavily in the draft, with some FA talent sprinkled in as well.

The problem on here, is there are a lot posters that had unrealistic expectations for this team (and have every year after year after year). I believe this next off-season is the year we start to really eval what is going on. We were not expected to win more a few games this year. Some of you thought we were going to go 8-8 which just insane to me.

I still have faith in the plan, as I have seen improvement. that's all I have wanted to see - and outside of the Cincy game, we have been within a FG in multiple games.

This team STILL PLAYS hard for HUE, you can hate him all you want, but you have to give that to him, these players play for him. They have not quit on him like the past roster quit on Pettine

This FO has put better talent on the field defensively around the board, and they have put a pretty good coach on the defensive side of the ball in Williams. You have to give the credit for that. They made a mistake with Horton, and fixed it. They have not addressed Hue because that tells me they know that its not Hue, its the talent on offense, which they will be addressing this next year. We are still 2 years away from being a playoff contender. This coming year we focus on offense which make us more competitive on that side of the ball. Then the year after that we will go all in and bring in some bigger names FA.

****Someone did make a good point to me yesterday - we have ALOT of CAP room, a 200 million dollar QB may come available in Cousins, if he does, do not be surprised if we throw a top contract at him.

I do. And are you accusing me of being a liar?

I don't think he is, I was going to ask for a link as well vers, as I have not heard that either. Not calling you a liar at all, just would like to what went down myself.

***I will say, I give them the benefit of the doubt (read my post above as to why) but with this if true and then the Bowe...I mean britt situation it seems shashi and co are developing a reputation for HAVING to be correct 100% of the time, and refuse to admit when they make a mistake.

I am accusing you of making statements without proof. If you can provide proof, then let's see it and this is a moot point.

It's funny because you are usually the one busting people for proof, but you make statements as fact all the time and then offer no proof. You may even have it, but it's like you like to be difficult.

I think he is calling me a liar. I think that because each and every post the guy directs toward me is hostile.

On the other hand, I don't think you are. I think you are just curious. Here's a link:

How is me asking for proof hostile? You asked Devicedawg for proof in another thread just this morning, and his statement very clearly said "I think" several times.

As for the proof, this does show that the scouts liked Wentz. It also says very clearly several times that they preferred Wentz to Goff, not that they wanted him for sure at 2. It also very clearly states that the organization shifted away from Wentz after Hue Jackson and Pep Hamilton made it clear that they didn't want Wentz.

The Browns did in fact let the scouts go, but that article even says it was after the decision was made that they didn't want Wentz. The FO dropped the ball, as did Hue and Pep.

Thank you, that's the first I have read of that. Could this be (and I am playing devils advocate here) a case that they were all in on Goff (the FO and Hue) and once he was taken their board was shot, and did not want to take a QB the whole room was not sold on with that high of a pick? They didn't trade down on myles, analytics says they would have got the most for that pick. So that tells me they are willing to pick a guy if the analytics and the room agree he is worth the place to be picked. . . .

For example lets say they were 60/40 on wentz, but 100 on goff. They figured they have a 60% chance to be right on that pick......not high enough for that high of a pick. Myles they were 100% on and picked him.

Hindsight is 20/20 as Wentz looks to be the real deal, as does goff. So I am looking it at it they were correct on Goff, they were wrong on Wentz. They cant help that Goff was not there to pick.

I believe it was Zegura the other day that made a good point, we are all pointing out who they didn't draft over the last two years, but we are not giving them ANY credit for who they DID draft over the last years - This year Myles looks to be the correct pick, Njoku looks like he can be something (has a ways to go, but I am excited about him), Peppers is still a question mark. The year before, Corey has flashed, but injuries have hampered him (not the FO fault) Ogbah looks to be like a very good pick Nassib flashed early and has died down a bit, but looks like he can be a solid contributor, Coleman has improved DRASTICALLY but is still a work in progress, Kessler (well we ALL have different opinions, but I think at best he is going to be a very serviceable backup in the NFL) Shobert in the 4th looks like a really good pick, R. Louis needs to start showing consistency I don't like this pick, Kindred is a guy nothing special but provides depth, Seth Devalve has flashed some and looks like a solid #2 TE ETC.

outside of the WR postion, I really think they have done a good job of the guys they have brought in. Were there better players on the board when they picked, yep...there always is unless you took tom brady. But the picks they have acquired are developing nicely (outside of WR)and they have contributed. When have we been able to say that about last regimes?

I remember reading the article. That is why I said that Hue didn't want Wentz and liked Goff. Once Goff was off the board, they traded back.

Jason La Canfora is a liar. A proven liar. Multiple times.

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2017/1/11/14243176/more-on-the-lack-of-credibility-of-jason-la-canfora

http://awfulannouncing.com/2016/benjamin...tole-photo.html

(This one was just a couple of weeks ago.) http://money.cnn.com/2017/10/08/media/cbs-sports-colin-kaepernick/index.html

http://www.newsweek.com/colin-kaepernick...team-lie-680347

Excellent and fair point.

I still have people telling me that Kizer is our future, however I don't see anything from his game on the field that would suggest that he is a super star although he is still pretty young and inexperienced.

Here's what I see, I see a very young inexperienced kid. I see a kid that needs to learn NFL defenses, needs to learn to get rid of the ball (he did improve on that last game), and I see a kid that has bad mechanics under pressure causing inaccuracies. I see issues with him absolutely, but the issues I see with him ARE FIXABLE issues.

I see an incredible arm. I mean laser rocket like arm. I see a huge kid, very well built, tall, and can handle punishment. I see an athlete. These are things you CANT teach or fix if you don't have them.

No one though it was a good idea to start kizer, I don't think hue did, I don't think sashi did, I don't think anyone did.

I think Kessler was told to do something's in the offseason, and he didn't do a single one of them, and the staff was upset with him. Hogan I don't know what the obsession is, I never really saw anything other than a body. Kizer was put in because sadly, he was the best guy we had on the team at that position, not because he was ready, but because he was playing better in preason, practicing better, and doing what the staff wanted him to do. The others were not.

I still think we need to get a QB, maybe 2. FA and Draft. but I am not cutting kizer or walking away from him yet. Goff looked equally as bad as he did last year, and look how that turned out.

I saw it live and watched it twice yesterday. I'm starting to wonder if the target - in his mid - was Louis and the ball was actually under-thrown. Equally bad either way...but Louis is right behind Higgins on that play. Odd.