DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Should the front office get a pass, again?

I see by your join date,that you are new here.
After awhile,nothing will blow your mind.
2,3,4,hell I don't know,rebuilds ago the cry was to build the team thru the trenches.That's how good teams are built.I might have been one of them.
Looking at this from afar,it would appear that that is what they are doing.
Now the lament is we have no difference makers,which is true.
So,if one were to listen to our fellow posters,the correct way to rebuild a team would be to build up both lines,while adding play makers,and an elite QB,and accomplish that in a year and a half.
Piece of cake.

No one is expecting them to be done in a year and a half. People do want to see progress. Signs we moving in the right direction. 1-22 is not progress. Going 0-16 is not progress.

Passing on guys like Wentz, signing guys like Britt does not give me confidence that the Harvard boys will fix this.

It must be great to be Sashi Brown. Get paid millions and never be expected to produce any results.

I think it is pretty common knowledge that Hue didn't want Wentz. He liked Goff.

It was also pretty well known he had a hard on for RGIII.

But isn't progress really in the eye of the beholder? I mean, let's say we went the Wentz, go heavy on the Offensive side of the ball instead of the defensive route we took... and let;s say that the pay off was an offense scoring an average of 24-27 points a game. But the defense was giving up 30 points a game and we're still 0-7.

Would the same people who feel there hasn't been any progress via the route we took, feel the same way had we gone the other?

Is it?

I have provided articles that said Depo didn't want Wentz and that Sashi thought RGIII was the long-term answer.

Look man, I do NOT know how it went down.....but what I do know is that blowhards like you don't know either. And most of the blowing is coming from the anti-Hue crowd.

This board is becoming almost unreadable.

I've enjoyed most of your posts. You have been slanted on the Kizer thing and it makes me think that you know him in some sort of way, perhaps as small as being from the same home town?

However, the above statement is absurd. When I think of football guys, I think of Bill Belichic, Vince Lombardi, Bill Walsh, etc.

Acting like all "football guys" are dumb is pretty dumb in and of itself.

False commentary. Most posters are ripping Hue. Did you forget that he was successful at other places?

There are only a couple of posters bad-mouthing the FO. There are plenty bad-mouthing Hue and you are one of them. Your bias reeks!

I have been defending Hue because of the abuse he is taking from posters like you. If the majority of posters were bashing the FO, I would defend them more. In fact, I have made posts defending the FO and even did so on this very thread.

Here is my bottom line. Firing people has not worked and it won't work. Firing Hue will not make this team better. I didn't like the original plan of the FO because I doubted whether or not coaches could survive so much losing in multiple years, but now that we went w/it, I am supporting keeping the FO in place.

No more firings. Stay the course. How freaking revolutionary.

yo.

The front office isn't perfect, and neither is Hue.

There are plenty of people here "ripping" the front office.

I'm not advocating for anyone to be fired.

I'm not blaming anyone for us being a bad football team. This is what happens when you "tear things down to the studs." I'm not upset that we aren't going to make the playoffs.

My point is we are not an 0-7 football team. Do you think we'd all be up in arms because we are 2-5? No. Some might, yes, but 2 wins would already be more than 1 win from a year ago.

People keep clamoring "lack of talent." Through nearly half a season and for as bad as we've been we have the best run defense (yd/att) in the league! I don't think you can do this without talent. And we've also done this without Gipson, without Haden, without Dansby, without Whitner (guilty!) who are all players posters here say we should have kept and we are hurting without them. Would we be better if they were here? Maybe. But they're not here and our defense is better today than we were 2 years ago. I mean who can really deny that?

As for Hue. I think he's in charge of what we do at the QB position. Why? Because our front office has adamantly said so. I guess some posters want to believe our front office forces Hue to play certain players, but there's no proof for or against that. That's just assumption.

I don't think Hue wanted Osweiler. I think of all the quarterbacks "forced" on Hue, Osweiler is the only one. We simply made that trade for the draft pick. But Hue gave him a shot and realized he didn't fit, was terrible. No sense in keeping a 16 million dollar paper weight around. I believe he was cut because it would reflect poorly that we have a guy who isn't playing/starting making 16 million. This might also be why we tried to renegotiate Haden's contract. Perhaps Williams felt McCourty, Taylor, and Boddy-Calhoun performed better than Haden in the preseason.

I think false commentary is blaming the front office that they haven't gotten us any talent and that we should have expected 0-7. I don't think even a fraction of the people complaining about Hue are upset we don't have a winning record. I think they're mostly upset we haven't won a game, A GAME (and only 1 total for the 23 games he's coached). If we were 2-5 would there be less complaints about Hue? I believe so.

I think flat out he does a horrible job with managing a game and that hurts us and has cost the team wins. I am fine with the play calls. I think Hue is a terrific OC. I don't know that he's a great HC. He had his ups and downs in Oakland, but was ultimately fired. Players like to play for him, which is great. I also think that he could do a better job exploiting the talents of the players we do have rather than run plays not suited for the talent or lack there of...

I don't want Hue fired and haven't said that I do want him fired (other than one time out of frustration). I do think that if change does come, it won't be with the front office, it'll be with the coaching staff. But I would be mildly surprised if they don't all get a third year.

These things are evident under the new regime

1 and 23
The worst 24 game stretch of any NFL team since the start of the 16 game schedule

0 and 9 in the AFC North

5 different starting qbs

2 diffrent DC

Passing on 2 potential franchise qbs

Last year's drafted WR 0 zero tds in 24 games

Highest paid oline in the NFL

That's the harsh plain facts about a team that the Poindexters have put together
This team can't even beat a team that fails to bring it's A game

That's how bad it is

Well that's incorrect.

While I agree with you about nobody getting fired and how this group has helped build the front seven, we disagree about Louis and the WR group.

A WR who drops as many passes as he has, to me, is not a WR who would have success elsewhere. I think he just looks good to some because he's one of the best of a very poor group. I believe the same could be said of Williams.

It's not a big deal that we disagree but we certainly see it differently. They tried to fix the WR position by drafting a group of mid round WR's in a poor WR draft class and it's come back to haunt them. Now they're searching practice squads to try to make up for their mistakes.

To be completely honest, I'm Australian and haven't ever been to America. No connection between Kizer and I on a personal front, or anyone else involved with the organization.

When I think of Bill Belichick, I think of the greatest head coach of all time who didn't start winning games in Cleveland until his 4th year. Bill Walsh didn't win until year three. I don't think it makes him, or anyone else, dumb. Building a team is hard, it takes time, and it's even worse when our guys are still trying to clean up the mess that the last group left for them.

I don't think of Belichick when I think of "football guy." There are a lot of football guys, it is an insult to think fitting that category inherently puts someone on Belichick's level.

I'm not against number crunchers, or football guys, or anyone else who falls in to a categorized sub-grouping designed only to praise or denigrate them from a pigeonholed box rather than their own individual qualities. I appreciate the time, resources and effort that goes in to building a winning NFL team the right way, and I want us to have the patience to allow it to occur. I appreciate how empty this roster was, how difficult it would be to rebuild, and how wanting it done in two years was just not task anyone could reasonably be up to.

I'm not thrilled with our record, but I felt 8-24 across the first two years would be a huge win. After last season, I felt 5-27 would be a nice step forward. Even if we go 2-30, I'm not disappointed that a roster that lacked the talent and experience to win lost a few more games than I thought them capable of winning anyway.

This is especially true when we're not firing everyone because we're getting a Bill Belichick. Sure, I'll hate the analytics guys if you can get Belichick to come and build this team. When you think of those "Football guys", please understand that just wanting a "Football guy" does NOT mean you are getting one of them. We're infinitely more likely to get another Ray Farmer.

Hue does not report Sashi and Sashi is not Hue's boss. Hue reports directly to Jimmy and Dee Haslam. Sashi has no authority over Hue as far as employment is concerned.

There's a difference in someone being your boss and them having the option to hire or fire someone. Those are two separate things.

Yes, those can be two separate things.

You don't want him fired, but all you do is bad mouth him and act like we have talent. LOL

I appreciate your reply. We disagree on what a "football guy" is.

What?

Does anyone think that it would be worth starting a thread titled: What makes someone a football guy? I keep hearing we need to hire a football guy. Honestly, I have no idea what that means.

I have an idea of what a football guy is. It's a guy who has experience in football.

No need to make it complicated or put qualifiers on it. It's not a guy who is a lawyer trying to transition to football or a baseball guy trying to transition to football.

It's quite simply...........a guy who has experience in the game of football.

But again...........I think I see what is happening here. Protect Sashi, Haslma, and Depo and blame Hue for our record.

Brilliant!

Hey, I've got football experience! I played CB in highschool, but I did do a short stint as a RB in JV... my stats? 1 Carry for 1 yrd, for 1 TD.

I think the job description needs to be a tad more well rounded. After all, who here would deny Mike Holmgren was a football guy? Clearly the moniker of "Football Guy" is no indicator of being a good fit for us.

<<sigh>>

Yep, all football guys suck and only lawyers and baseball guys "get it."

Why is it impossible for anyone to ever reply to the actual content of a post? It's bad in here, way worse in the EE and Politics forums...

If you can't answer the simple question of expanding on what qualifiers a "football guy" should bring to the table... you're the one with the problem.

DePo played college football. He's got experience doesn't he?

I'm sure Sashi played a game of backyard football or two. He's got experience doesn't he?

That's according to the standard YOU put forth. Not me. Not no one else. I may have been a tad tongue in cheek, but I at least had the respect to address the content of your post and ask for you to expand on it. You of all people complain the most about the lack of substantive conversation around here, but have the audacity to throw this kind of crap at me Yep, all football guys suck and only lawyers and baseball guys "get it." and try to present it as my position when it clearly isn't.

Last chance before I give up and move on:

What do you believe defines a "football guy"?

Is it pedigree?
Is it experience as a player?
Is it experience coaching?
Management?
Track record?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Okay, I am the problem. Go talk to 888 and company.

I tried.

I just hope you take enough tissue paper with you. Your high road is so far up there I should think nose bleeds might be a problem.

Have a good night Sir

Thanks.

Now, I will comment on what I think should happen and I could give a rat's ass what your biased ass things.

I hope we keep Hue and his staff.

I hope we keep Sashi and other FO guys.

I hope that Haslam ignores the dumb ass fans and stays the course.

I hope that is very clear!

I agree. These last few football seasons have really sucked so changing now would make last year and this year suffering be for not. Stay the course but make more of an effort to retain our own players.

Your definition is too simplistic. Sashi Brown has been with the Browns Front Office for 11 years. Why does that not makes him a football gut? I hate having to say this on every frick'n post but I am not trying to defend the front office and blame HUe. I am asking an honest question. Please don't try to twist it.

Let's look at Ron Wolf. Per his wikipedia page:

After serving three years in the Army, Wolf played college baseball at Maryville College in Tennessee. So no football experience. At this point he is either a soldier or a baseball guy.

After college, he worked for Pro Football Illustrated, a Chicago sports newspaper.

Wolf became a scout for the Raiders in 1963 - around age 25

In 1975, Wolf joined the expansion Tampa Bay Buccaneers as vice-president of operations.

In 1991, Wolf was hired to replace Packers General Manager Tom Braatz.


I don't think anyone would argue that Wolf is not a football guy. So the question is, when exactly did he go from being a baseball guy to being a football guy?
Was it the day he got hired by the Raiders in 1963? Was it one year later? two?

I think Sashi has been with the Browns for 4-5 seasons, not 11. Still, I agree with the rest of your post.


It's unfortunate we need to have this disclaimer when certain posters feel it necessary to make broad-stroke generalizations to fit their agenda.

mac and memphis - thanks for pointing out my error. I misread the article. Sashi was hired by the Browns in 2013 but this is his 11th in the NFL.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/01/who_is_sashi_brown_the_clevela.html

11 years in the NFL and still not a football guy. What does he have to do to become a football guy?

The bolded part directly answers your question ...

This reminds me an awful lot of the “Don” ... one Carmon Policy ...

When he came here the original board opened shortly after ... everyone ASSumed cause of all his success at SF he would be a great football guy and lead us to the same glory .. solely because he worked for them since like 72 or so ... i knew the dates well back then .. *L* ..... I knew the dons history ...

WHEN FRISCO LET HIM IN THE FOOTBALL SIDE he DESTROYED FRISCO ... i hated the fact he was the guy running our team ... Walsh/McVie retired in the early 90’s .. after SB 4 ... POLICY HAD SQUAT TO DO WITH FOOTBALL DECISIONS UP TO THEN ..

He rode Walsh/McVies talent to one SB victory ... destroying them for years to come in the proccess ... HORRIBLE DECISIONS ...

Yet when he came here all i heard was .. he led them to 5 sb’s, thats not good enough for u diam ... my response was BS ... learn your history ... he had diddly to do with the first 4 ... DIDDLY ... then he won his with someone else’s players .... when his took over they SUCKED and were in CAP HELL ...

There’s a lot of similitarities between Sashi and the don ...

Sashi worked at a law firm ... worked for the jags as their lawyer and executive vp ... came to us in the same position ....

Thats not a football position .. he’s not a football guy ... FOOTBALL GUYS start out as players, scouts, low level coaches ... it has something to do with the actual play on the field ... not signing contracts and negotiating deals and running all the business stuff associated with running a football team ..

Same with Joe Banner ... he didn’t do squat in Phili on the football side ... DIDDLY ...

Just because they worked for an nfl team doesn’t make them football guys anymore than it makes the beer vendor a football guy ... *L* ...

Hope that helps ...

And because Policy ruined the niners .. DOESN’T MEAN THIS CAN’T WORK HERE ... it certainly doesn’t ...

SO FAR these guys have been light years ahead of what Policy ever did .. LIGHT YEARS ..

But to make someone like this the guy that is the tie breaker and has final say on who is drafted and aquired in FA and who makes the final roster ..

Thats simply not smart ... it would be like asking Hue to take over negotiations for the naming rights to the stadium and handling the cap .... sure he’s been in football his entire life but that hardly MAKES HIM QUALIFIED to do those things anymore than it makes your lawyer qualified to make personal decisions ...

Get disbarred.

You wouldn't know that by following him on twitter. He takes responsibility for everything that happened in Philly.

Good post Diam. That explains why people don't think Sashi is a football guy. My other question though is what does he have to do to become a football guy? He is involved in the draft process now.

Are you saying he can never become a football guy? Let's say a couple years from now that the Browns have won 3 straight super bowls and have 25 all pro players (11 offensive starters, 11 defensive starters, K, P and LS) all brought to the Browns under Sashi's reign. Would he not then be considered a football guy? Or will he still be considered a lawyer?

Again, I am not trying to defend Sashi. I am trying to get clarity on what makes someone a football guy.

Let's take Sashi out it altogether and look at Jerry Jones. Is he a football guy? He played college football at Arkansas for 3 years. No pro football experience on the field or scouting experience before he bought the Cowboys. Yet he is in the Pro Football HOF. How is he not a football guy? And if he is, how did he become one?

Alright guys, i will be checking out for awhile. Need to head to work. I am looking forward to reading the replies when I get home. Have fun watching the Browns game. Tally-ho!

*LOL* .... is he taking credit for wentz ...

These guys and there egos ... good lord man ...

It's comical seeing some of the things he posts on there. Absolutely comical.